Questions about Confession

[WIP]

Thanks WIP.
I find it interesting that within the Lutheran denominations there is not 100% agreement.
I'm wondering if confession is practiced in the Lutheran faith.
Then would the same idea apply --- that all the laity are priests?
Not that I think one should confess to a lay person even IF confession does exist...
just to see if they're consistent in this belief. (that everyone is a priest - which the NT does state, of course).

That's another interesting topic. I actually like the concept of confession as taught in the Catholic church although there is much about it that I disagree with. By taking the time to identify our sins on a regular bases, I believe it is helpful to be mindful of our transgressions and our need for our Savior.

I brought this up not too long ago in our adult Bible study. Some of the more mature members in our congregation shared that there was a time when our church encouraged or maybe even required confession to the pastor but today we confess during our worship service each week with a prescribed prayer and absolution. I do not know when or how that changed but it was long before I began worshipping in our Lutheran church.

The problem that I see with what we do now is that it can be too easy to just go through the motions with our blanket statement of confession without actually calling to mind our sins. Kind of out of sight out of mind if you know what I mean.

 

[D-D-W]

That's another interesting topic. I actually like the concept of confession as taught in the Catholic church although there is much about it that I disagree with. By taking the time to identify our sins on a regular bases, I believe it is helpful to be mindful of our transgressions and our need for our Savior.

I brought this up not too long ago in our adult Bible study. Some of the more mature members in our congregation shared that there was a time when our church encouraged or maybe even required confession to the pastor but today we confess during our worship service each week with a prescribed prayer and absolution. I do not know when or how that changed but it was long before I began worshiping in our Lutheran church.

The problem that I see with what we do now is that it can be too easy to just go through the motions with our blanket statement of confession without actually calling to mind our sins. Kind of out of sight out of mind if you know what I mean.

James tells us to confess our sins one to another and pray for each other. James 5:16 Most protestants reject the clear instruction of scripture because it appears "too catholic."

An interesting topic for sure but Off Topic in the discussion of communion. Another thread perhaps?

 

[GodsGrace]

James tells us to confess our sins one to another and pray for each other. James 5:16 Most protestants reject the clear instruction of scripture because it appears "too catholic."

An interesting topic for sure but Off Topic in the discussion of communion. Another thread perhaps?

The CC doesn't teach that we're to confess to each other.

We're in church history.
There is a history to confession.
It was not always like this in form in the CC.

 

[D-D-W]

The CC doesn't teach that we're to confess to each other.

James 5:16
Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.

I go with what the bible teaches.

I do realize the RCC has much different tradition than what a strict reading of the text would indicate. Our Lord (and Paul for that matter) were not opposed to much of Jewish rabbinic tradition of their day, EXCEPT where it went AGAINST the written Word of God. Our Lord had nothing nice to say about that at all.

 

[GodsGrace]

James 5:16
Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.

I go with what the bible teaches.

I do realize the RCC has much different tradition than what a strict reading of the text would indicate. Our Lord (and Paul for that matter) were not opposed to much of Jewish rabbinic tradition of their day, EXCEPT where it went AGAINST the written Word of God. Our Lord had nothing nice to say about that at all.

So when was the last time you confessed your sins to a friend of yours?

Jesus gave the Apostles the authority to forgive sins,,,not to everybody. John 20:23 ?

 

[D-D-W]

So when was the last time you confessed your sins to a friend of yours?

That is a private matter, but it has been done with some regularity.

Jesus gave the Apostles the authority to forgive sins,,,not to everybody. John 20:23 ?

That is a matter of discussion, to whom exactly that authority was given.
But the James passage does not say to forgive sins, it says to pray for healing.

 

[GodsGrace]

That is a private matter, but it has been done with some regularity.

That is a matter of discussion, to whom exactly that authority was given.
But the James passage does not say to forgive sins, it says to pray for healing.

You're very different regarding the habit of confession.

The James passage is different from the John passage.

Are they the same to you?

 

[D-D-W]

You're very different regarding the habit of confession.

Different that what exactly?

The James passage is different from the John passage.
Are they the same to you?

Not at all. But it is the James ("Jacob" actually**) passage that talks about confessing to humans. The John passage does not.

** In the Greek the name is Ἰάκωβος Jakōbos, which is NOT "James." But King Jimmy want his own name in the text so that is how both the disciple and the book got named "James."

 

[gordon777]

Different that what exactly?

Not at all. But it is the James ("Jacob" actually**) passage that talks about confessing to humans. The John passage does not.

** In the Greek the name is Ἰάκωβος Jakōbos, which is NOT "James." But King Jimmy want his own name in the text so that is how both the disciple and the book got named "James."

If you guys are talking about confessions, you need the context better. ( from scripture)


Before believing in Christ, we are servants of sin ( these need confessing) and are without any righteousness.

Those sins are shameful. ( with a conscience in Christ the believer is now ashamed of what they were doing, and what they were free frrom.)

That is not having fellowship with the unfruitful ( free from righteousness) works of darkness, reproving them as it is shameful to even talk of what they are yet doing( and what they seem to not have shame in confessing, as they are not yet ashamed of what they did, to repent and no longer do them.)

James talks of the same, it is the error of the sinners way. They need to convert from that.




Romans 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Ephesians 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.


James 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.
18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.
19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

 

[GodsGrace]

Different that what exactly?

Different in How you believe confession to be
Practiced. I think that James meant that we are to seek comfort from each other if we need this, and to seek this comfort from another Christian.
I don't think we live in a world where this could be done. I don't think enough Christians understand about living in the Kingdom of God.
I don't think most Christian's are mature, meat-eating Christian's. I like the idea of confessing to God.
Unless the confessing involves the other person and I'm apologizing for something or other. This I have done.

Not at all. But it is the James ("Jacob" actually**) passage that talks about confessing to humans. The John passage does not.

** In the Greek the name is Ἰάκωβος Jakōbos, which is NOT "James." But King Jimmy want his own name in the text so that is how both the disciple and the book got named "James."

Actually, the John passage interests me more.
I've read about the history of confession.
I must say that every priest I know personally, believes in confession. To a priest.

 

[WIP]

James tells us to confess our sins one to another and pray for each other. James 5:16 Most protestants reject the clear instruction of scripture because it appears "too catholic."

An interesting topic for sure but Off Topic in the discussion of communion. Another thread perhaps?

I agree. Both Catholics and Protestants alike carry so much animosity towards each other that our minds are clouded and we intentionally try to avoid appearing to have any agreement at all. That is not what Martin Luther wanted and that is not what Jesus wants and until we find it in our hearts to humble ourselves we will remain at odds. Reminds me of Paul's first letter to the Corinthians when he spoke of the divisions in the Church.

 

[Edward]

I think that the RCC and it's semi ritualistic confessions to the Priest are not correct and that the scripture,

James 5:16
Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.../

points us a slightly different direction. One of, confessing to your spiritual peers and even friends and so forth. Doing it this way does two things, it brings humility and everyone knows that we were all once sinners and all stumble here and there. The second thing it does is to bring unity to the body for we are all one spirit.

 

[Edward]

I wonder how prolific or crickets a confession thread would be?

Lol.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think that the RCC and it's semi ritualistic confessions to the Priest are not correct and that the scripture,

James 5:16
Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.../

points us a slightly different direction. One of, confessing to your spiritual peers and even friends and so forth. Doing it this way does two things, it brings humility and everyone knows that we were all once sinners and all stumble here and there. The second thing it does is to bring unity to the body for we are all one spirit.

The CC has confession to a priest to keep the unity, as you stayed above that this is shafiq Jesus wanted. Interesting.

 

[D-D-W]

Different in How you believe confession to be

OK - I get that.

Practiced. I think that James meant that we are to seek comfort from each other if we need this, and to seek this comfort from another Christian.
I don't think we live in a world where this could be done. I don't think enough Christians understand about living in the Kingdom of God.
I don't think most Christian's are mature, meat-eating Christian's.

And that is fault of the Priest/Pastor/Preacher, and the rest of congregational leadership.

Ephesians 4:11-12
And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;

As a whole, if the congregants are not mature enough, it is because they have not been taught and trained properly. This verse says it is the responsibility of these 5 main ministries to do that.

I like the idea of confessing to God.

The scriptures that talk about confession of sins to God are in Ezra and Daniel.
The ONLY NT scripture about confessing of sins is the James passage.

Actually, the John passage interests me more.
I've read about the history of confession.
I must say that every priest I know personally, believes in confession. To a priest.

I can believe that; but as I said, there is no scriptural requirement for that. Especially no requirement that ONLY a priest or pastor can hear confession of sins. It is a made up doctrine of man.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I actually think it’s not popular because it’s too embarrassing. The modern christian doesn’t want to humble themselves by confessing real sins they actually did. It actually says confess to ONE ANOTHER, not a priest. It’s too bad really because there is great grace released when one does.

 

[GodsGrace]

OK - I get that.

And that is fault of the Priest/Pastor/Preacher, and the rest of congregational leadership.

Ephesians 4:11-12
And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;

As a whole, if the congregants are not mature enough, it is because they have not been taught and trained properly. This verse says it is the responsibility of these 5 main ministries to do that.


The scriptures that talk about confession of sins to God are in Ezra and Daniel.
The ONLY NT scripture about confessing of sins is the James passage.

I can believe that; but as I said, there is no scriptural requirement for that. Especially no requirement that ONLY a priest or pastor can hear confession of sins. It is a made up doctrine of man.

Could you post the verses in Ezra and Daniel?

And then what do you believe Jesus meant in John 20 when He told the Apostles they could forgive or retain sins?

I agree with what you've stated about pastors.

 

[D-D-W]

I actually think it’s not popular because it’s too embarrassing.

There are a great many things that are not popular in christendom.

The modern christian doesn’t want to humble themselves by confessing real sins they actually did.

There are plenty of scriptures about the need for humility. Just because it is uncomfortable does not make it any less needful.

It actually says confess to ONE ANOTHER, not a priest. It’s too bad really because there is great grace released when one does.

Indeed.

 

[D-D-W]

Could you post the verses in Ezra and Daniel?

Ezra 9:5-6
But at the evening offering I arose from my humiliation, even with my garment and my robe torn, and I fell on my knees and stretched out my hands to the Lord my God; and I said, “O my God, I am ashamed and embarrassed to lift up my face to You, my God, for our iniquities have risen above our heads and our guilt has grown even to the heavens.

Ezra 10:11
Now therefore, make confession to the Lord God of your fathers and do His will; and separate yourselves from the peoples of the land and from the foreign wives.”

Nehemiah 1:6
let Your ear now be attentive and Your eyes open to hear the prayer of Your servant which I am praying before You now, day and night, on behalf of the sons of Israel Your servants, confessing the sins of the sons of Israel which we have sinned against You; I and my father’s house have sinned.

Daniel 9:4
I prayed to the Lord my God and confessed and said, “Alas, O Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps His covenant and lovingkindness for those who love Him and keep His commandments,

Daniel 9:20
Now while I was speaking and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the Lord my God in behalf of the holy mountain of my God,

And then what do you believe Jesus meant in John 20 when He told the Apostles they could forgive or retain sins?

IMO it was part of the greater authority that was given them:

Matthew 16:19
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”

That does NOT mean (as some pentecostals believe) that it has anything to do with binding up the devil. Those (binding and loosing) were common theological terms of the day. The rabbis and pharisees would all come up with their own methods of helping the common man to not break the Law of Moses. The name for that was Halicha. It referred to how you would walk. If a specific act was permitted, it was said to be "loosed." If it was forbidden, it was said to be "bound."

And if a provision in any rabbi's halicha would seem to make the follower fulfill the Law, it was "establishing the Law;" conversely if it would lead one to break the Law, it was said to "destroy the Law."

This "binding and loosing" was the authority to write the New Testament, and to establish what was and was not sinful under the New Covenant. Retaining or forgiving sins would be a part of that greater authority.

 

[WIP]

I think that the RCC and it's semi ritualistic confessions to the Priest are not correct and that the scripture,

James 5:16
Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.../

points us a slightly different direction. One of, confessing to your spiritual peers and even friends and so forth. Doing it this way does two things, it brings humility and everyone knows that we were all once sinners and all stumble here and there. The second thing it does is to bring unity to the body for we are all one spirit.

I think one of the difficulties is found in how judgmental we can be. How well received would it be to honestly and truthfully confess all of our sins to another member of the Church? I'm sure most would have a difficult time hearing the confession as well as to be confessing, especially knowing the confessor. Sad to say, but we are not very good at being objective and just listening without forming an opinion.