Questions for Christians

[Brother Lionel]

Hey where did AAA go???

 

[AAA]

Chrisv,

Thanks for your touching and honest post. Please retract your apology: a discussion does not require an apology unless harm was caused or intended and you're certainly not guilty of that: quite the opposite I am sure.

I believe in a loving and caring and all knowing God who takes care of me.
He changed me form being a angry ex-cop with a violent temper into a peace loving, gentle person who now do not have a temper problem anymore. Believe me, only God could do that.

You'll forgive me if I do not believe you on that one.

I do not mean to diminish your transformation in any way by what I am about to write. It seems to me that atheists, Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, Jains, Jews, Zoroastrians, Mormons, Scientologists, etc. have transformative experiences like yours all the time (recovering alcoholics as an example) while thinking about and attributing them to their own strength, the support and inspiration of loved ones, Buddha, Allah, Krishna, etc. It also seems to me, though I can't prove it, that there are billions of good people, including good Christians, who could use a transformation like yours and never "receive" it. There is good reason to believe that stories like Jesus' can have transformative power, but that doesn't for a second mean that the story is true. There is no good reason why exploring these transformative experiences should not be performed or contemplated with the same standards of reasonableness as any other intellectually honest endeavour. Are you really being intellectually honest on your route to your conclusions?

I eagerly await the day I die, because I know my Heavenly Father will be waiting for me on the other side.

Sorry, but while eagerly awaiting your death is at least consistent with what you believe, its scary. I believe that this incredibly rare and seemingly special opportunity is the only one I get at life, so that while I don't fear death, I certainly do not eagerly await it.

I urge you to continue in your quest. We never know, maybe God will decide in His sovereignty to give you the proof you are looking for, I sincerely hope so.

If your god exists, then I hope so too.

I have a real sense that you have weathered many storms in your life, and had to learn to rely on yourself and your own perseverance. I am sensing that you are currently in a stormy period in your life and that by the end of the year this will pass and you will be able to enter a time of rest.

Sorry to break it to you ChrisV, but so far, life has been very good to me. I could not say that I've weathered many storms: quite the contrary. I've been surrounded and supported by loved ones and good friends the whole time. This may be the best year of my life. If I have a hope, it is that my and my loved one's good health and fortune will continue. Your "sense" is plain wrong.

Everytime I think of you the word "Perserverance" comes to mind. You can perservere, when everybody else gives up you will still go on until you reach your goal. I believe that is one of your defining charateristics, your ability to stick to it and finish it.

I've thought about this one carefully, and I think you're probably right. If I'm interested or invested, my perseverance is probably higher than average. Please recognize that my perseverance in this thread seems particularly revealing of that, so no "gift" seems required to suspect this about me. Even if it wasn't, you could easily have been correct about this feature of my character by pure luck/chance.

Regards,
SB

 

[Chrisv]

Ah well,

Like I said, I get it wrong sometimes. Interesting though, I've been known to operate in a prophetic ministry from time to time and have had some real positive feedback regarding the accuracy of the words.

But, like I've said I've gotten it wrong sometimes too. Maybe someone else will be willing to help me out? Help me exercise the gift?

Anybody for a prophetic word? I would appreciate a volunteer or two on the condition that they give me honest feedback. I in turn promise to edify you.

 

[Aero_Hudson]

I've read through the thread and have some completely random thoughts...

- Prior to April of this year I would have categorized myself as an agnostic not very different from AAA.

- I feel that Christianity brings some very tangible events and and dynamics to the table that other religions are lacking. For me, one of these is Jesus. He was a real historical figure that actually lived and breathed. He was a rabbi in his day, he taught radical things that are referenced in materials outside of the bible and he was put to death via crucifixtion as a result. These historical facts are very difficult to dispute outside of the supernatural elements.

- The original followers of Christ put there lives and their families lives on the line everyday for what they believed and taught. I find that very compelling. Most of the original apostles and many after them were martyred for what they believed. Why would these men do that? They weren't doing it for power or money or other tangible reasons. They did this for one reason. To spread the teachings of Jesus and to tell people what they saw. I find these circumstances to be intriguing and compelling and not something that can just be dismissed.

- I do not believe that science can explain everything. Science can explain events and dynamics that we as humans can observe with our senses. I think most would agree that we cannot perceive everything that happens in the universe as a result of this limitation. Everyday we find out new things about our universe that we had no clue were there just yesterday (e.g. I read a story yesterday on CNN that there is a giant ring around Saturn 3.7 million miles away from the planet and extends more than 7.1 million miles away). This will more than likely continue indefinitely. That tells me that there are an infinate number of things out there that we will probably never understand.

I could go on but I think that is a good start. The only other thing I will lightly touch on is why I became a Christian this year. It started with me being tired of being a fence sitter. I made up my mind last year that I had to make up my mind. This started a journey of more than 6 months of actively studying, reading and analyzing what others believe. It culminated in me making up my own mind in April of this year. The evidence led me to Christ.

Aero out!

 

[francisdesales]

I've read through the thread and have some completely random thoughts...

- Prior to April of this year I would have categorized myself as an agnostic not very different from AAA.

- I feel that Christianity brings some very tangible events and and dynamics to the table that other religions are lacking. For me, one of these is Jesus. He was a real historical figure that actually lived and breathed. He was a rabbi in his day, he taught radical things that are referenced in materials outside of the bible and he was put to death via crucifixtion as a result. These historical facts are very difficult to dispute outside of the supernatural elements.

- The original followers of Christ put there lives and their families lives on the line everyday for what they believed and taught. I find that very compelling. Most of the original apostles and many after them were martyred for what they believed. Why would these men do that? They weren't doing it for power or money or other tangible reasons. They did this for one reason. To spread the teachings of Jesus and to tell people what they saw. I find these circumstances to be intriguing and compelling and not something that can just be dismissed.

- I do not believe that science can explain everything. Science can explain events and dynamics that we as humans can observe with our senses. I think most would agree that we cannot perceive everything that happens in the universe as a result of this limitation. Everyday we find out new things about our universe that we had no clue were there just yesterday (e.g. I read a story yesterday on CNN that there is a giant ring around Saturn 3.7 million miles away from the planet and extends more than 7.1 million miles away). This will more than likely continue indefinitely. That tells me that there are an infinate number of things out there that we will probably never understand.

I could go on but I think that is a good start. The only other thing I will lightly touch on is why I became a Christian this year. It started with me being tired of being a fence sitter. I made up my mind last year that I had to make up my mind. This started a journey of more than 6 months of actively studying, reading and analyzing what others believe. It culminated in me making up my own mind in April of this year. The evidence led me to Christ.

Aero out!

Aero,

Very good post. I think many people are compelled in the same manner as you are to explore the truth claims of Christianity.

Regards

 

[Aero_Hudson]

Thanks francis!!

 

[AAA]

Thank-you for joining the discussion Aero.

I have some comments & questions, not so random, myself:

The original followers of Christ put there lives and their families lives on the line everyday for what they believed and taught. I find that very compelling. Most of the original apostles and many after them were martyred for what they believed. Why would these men do that? They weren't doing it for power or money or other tangible reasons. They did this for one reason. To spread the teachings of Jesus and to tell people what they saw. I find these circumstances to be intriguing and compelling and not something that can just be dismissed.

Name a faith (except Jainism perhaps) that doesn't have its martyrs. It is not the least bit surprising to me people are prepared to die when they really believe that they will actually not die, but rather, live forever in heaven. Just look at this thread to find evidence of this. As Brother Lionel has attested, "that's basically what's at play here - the afterlife". Brother Lionel believes that there will be another life for him. He said so. Or read ChrisV's post: he's "eagerly awaiting death" right now.

Since people who lived hundreds or thousands of years after the historical Jesus have been willing to die for him, and have actually died for him, what is compelling about stories suggesting that Jesus' disciples were willing to die for him, particularly when these stories have been circulated by biased individuals over the last 2,000 years?

And what's not compelling about Muslims who regularly give their lives in Allah's name (just watch any of their videos where they clearly indicate why they are blowing themselves up)?

- I do not believe that science can explain everything. Science can explain events and dynamics that we as humans can observe with our senses. I think most would agree that we cannot perceive everything that happens in the universe as a result of this limitation. Everyday we find out new things about our universe that we had no clue were there just yesterday (e.g. I read a story yesterday on CNN that there is a giant ring around Saturn 3.7 million miles away from the planet and extends more than 7.1 million miles away). This will more than likely continue indefinitely. That tells me that there are an infinate number of things out there that we will probably never understand.

So what? How does that even begin to justify believing in the Christian god?

I could go on but I think that is a good start. The only other thing I will lightly touch on is why I became a Christian this year. It started with me being tired of being a fence sitter. I made up my mind last year that I had to make up my mind. This started a journey of more than 6 months of actively studying, reading and analyzing what others believe. It culminated in me making up my own mind in April of this year. The evidence led me to Christ.

What evidence is that?

 

[Brother Lionel]

Hey AAA, why havent you responded to my question??

 

[AAA]

Bro L,

I thought it was rhetorical.

I'd like to live forever.

 

[Brother Lionel]

So do I. And I'm sure everyone else would too. But the Golden question is....How??? What are your thoughts on this?

 

[AAA]

Bro L,

While it seems to me that I would like to live forever, I don't think it's possible.

Let's look at what Christianity offers with respect to eternal life:

I am repeatedly told that people suffer in our world because the Christian god loves us enough to provide us with free will. That is, because we have free will, we will necessarily make choices that lead to human suffering.

That's why, in this world, apparently watched over by the all-loving, all-good, all-powerful, Christian god, a child dies of starvation every 5 seconds .

That's why more than 10 million men, women, and children were tortured, beaten, burned, experimented upon, and murdered in the holocaust, including 6 million of "god's chosen people".

Free will is apparently worth all that and much, much more unimaginable and seemingly pointless suffering in the present and for hundreds of thousands of years of history.

Well, if I somehow manage to honestly become a Christian, when I die, presumably I will go to heaven, where there will be no suffering. Presumably, that will mean that I will have to spend eternity without free will.

No thanks. I don't want eternity without free will. I don't want to be a robot, or a zombie, for all time.

Now, if the Christian god could assure that we could keep our free will in heaven, yet not suffer, then I would consider becoming a Christian (though I don't know how I could honestly do that, since I think that "faith" is just intellectual dishonesty). But this would raise a very important question wouldn't it?

If all-loving, all-good, all-powerful Christian god can permit free will without necessary suffering, then why hasn't he provided that world for us right now? I would conclude that the Christian god is not all-good, or not actually capable of creating such existences.

But my formal conclusion is that Christianity, and all religions for that matter, are just man-made fairy tales that permit us avoid to the inevitability and finality of death. There just are no intellectually honest reasons to believe in the Christian, or any other, god.

 

[Free]

Let's look at what Christianity offers:

But my formal conclusion is that Christianity, and all religions for that matter, are just man-made fairy tales that permit us avoid to the inevitability and finality of death. There just are no intellectually honest reasons to believe in the Christian, or any other, god.

And my conclusion is that you have only considered a part "what Christianity offers" in coming to such a conclusion which is not intellectually honest and why your conclusion is wrong.

 

[AAA]

I'm listening Free.

 

[Free]

lol...That made me think of "Dr. Fraiser Crane".


You have only considered that God has given us freewill, argued to problem of evil and then drawn a conclusion. At least that is all you have stated.

However, the larger story the Bible teaches from the very beginning is that God also had a plan to make things right in world. Central to that plan is that God works through humans to bring about justice and make things right. The catch is that man is also a large part of the problem.

The central event in God's plan is sending the Son to die and be raised again. The Church at large is not entirely correct for making the events of the cross and resurrection a mere matter of salvation. This was the point in time when God himself overcame the power of evil with finality and broke into the world with newness of life. This is the answer to the problem of evil. And, I would argue, the only answer.

Through the defeat of evil and with the power of the resurrection, Christians are to be the ones bringing about justice and overcoming evil. However, since we still have freewill, we are still a part of the problem and don't always make the right choices. That, together with an incomplete theology of the cross and resurrection, makes for slow going in implementing and fulfilling God's plan.

Freewill was and is necessary for man. To create humans to love God and have no choice in the matter is not love at all; it is forced love, which is akin to rape. As for what heaven will be like, only God knows. He has not revealed specifics. Suffice to say that those in heaven will be those who have already made the choice to love God, which is altogether different than creating us to love in the first place.


Now, onto Scientific Naturalism.

Here we come to what some have argued is man merely "dancing to his DNA." In this view, we not only have no basis to call something truly evil or something truly good, we have no solution to our now irrational belief that evil actually exists. Both evil and good acts are things we are programmed to do. We now have become robots since it is our DNA that has programmed us to do what we do and believe what we believe. We now lack the basis for saying others' beliefs are irrational since they are merely believing what their DNA is telling them to believe.

The main problems with such a worldview are that not only does scientific naturalism fail to address--and actually cannot address--man's real questions about the meaning of life, it also has no solution to offer for it's perceived presence of evil in the world.

 

[Aero_Hudson]

Thank-you for joining the discussion Aero.

I have some comments & questions, not so random, myself:

Name a faith (except Jainism perhaps) that doesn't have its martyrs. It is not the least bit surprising to me people are prepared to die when they really believe that they will actually not die, but rather, live forever in heaven. Just look at this thread to find evidence of this. As Brother Lionel has attested, "that's basically what's at play here - the afterlife". Brother Lionel believes that there will be another life for him. He said so. Or read ChrisV's post: he's "eagerly awaiting death" right now.

Since people who lived hundreds or thousands of years after the historical Jesus have been willing to die for him, and have actually died for him, what is compelling about stories suggesting that Jesus' disciples were willing to die for him, particularly when these stories have been circulated by biased individuals over the last 2,000 years?

And what's not compelling about Muslims who regularly give their lives in Allah's name (just watch any of their videos where they clearly indicate why they are blowing themselves up)?

The difference for me is going back to the 12. They saw Jesus, knew him, were witnesses to the events in question. As a result of what they witnessed they gave their lives up to Jesus. Not based on what they were taught but based on what they saw and experienced. They state that they saw the risen Christ and spoke / interacted with him.

I think this is much different from people removed from such events, that never met or saw Jesus or witnessed these happenings. As far as the stories being circulated for 2000 years, you do realize that we have 24,000 ancient copies of these texts that correspond to the first documents found almost down to every detail. They are nearly flawless and capture the same details as the earliest documents found. Couple this with the fact that the gospels, Paul's writings and others from the ones closest to Jesus can be dated within 30 to 40 years of the actual crucifixion. Considering that we we do not hold up other historical documents to this level of scrutiny but still see them as reliable I would think that these facts are compelling as well.

So what? How does that even begin to justify believing in the Christian god?

It has everything to do with the belief of a Creator or an all powerful God. You have to make up your own mind on this one as I never stated that this was proof of the existence of the Christian God. I just know when I try to discern all that is currently unknown and try to fathom why all of "this" is here, I do not have an answer and neither does anyone else on earth. What I will say is that someone or something knows. That points to something a bit more supernatural in my mind. It may not for you and that is alright.

What evidence is that?

I had to make up my mind what I thought was more plausible. Option 1: That we were all created as a circumstance of random chance with no purpose. We are just here. Option 2: That we have a Creator that created all of this for a reason. Based on my journey I am compelled to believe in Option 2 more than Option 1.

The evidence for me took 3 forms. Historical, Rational and Experiential. I have probably read 20+ books in the last year or so on the subject and countless articles. I also researched the Atheist belief, although they would tell you they have a lack of belief, read some of Richard Dawkins and others books and also countless articles. I also went and tried Christianity on for size. I went to experience it for 2 months to see what I thought. Based on all of these things it made sense for me to become a Jesus Follower. I am a better person as a result and have a sense of peace I have never felt before in my 37 years of life.

Hopefully this helps.

 

[AAA]

lol...That made me think of "Dr. Fraiser Crane".

Ha! That's exactly the spirit I wrote it in...

Thanks for your comments, but I don't think you've actually addressed mine. The problem of evil is really peripheral to the discussion I was having with Bro L, but I am happy to get to it eventually.

For now, the Christian position is that in this, the best of all possible worlds created for us by an omnipotent and omnibenevolent god, unimaginable suffering must occur for free will to exist.

That is, if god could have created a world where the free will to love him did not require the unimaginable suffering we observe and experience, then surely a loving and omnipotent and omnibenevolent god would have done so.

It is widely accepted that heaven, in contrast to hell, will be free of suffering. Did you dispute this when you wrote:

As for what heaven will be like, only God knows. He has not revealed specifics.

? I don't think you did. I think that all you did was avoid the relevant discussion.

In any case, do you now dispute the mandatory association of free will and suffering, or that there will not be suffering in heaven? If so, how?

If not, then it follows logically that souls in heaven cannot have free will, and my answer to Bro L stands: I don't want to be a robot forever.

I don't think that you can have it both ways Free, and I've seen no explanation from you indicating how you can. I think that all you've done is avoid the real explanation.

Nevertheless, I am glad that you have joined the discussion. Your post raises further questions for me to address, which I would like to do, as well as further questions that I would like to ask you.

 

[Free]

Thanks for your comments, but I don't think you've actually addressed mine. The problem of evil is really peripheral to the discussion I was having with Bro L, but I am happy to get to it eventually.

We can leave it for now. I wasn't following the discussion and just jumped in to respond to a few of things you mentioned, which I probably shouldn't have done. I don't want to derail the discussion. But, yes, keep these things in mind and we can discuss it when it becomes relevant.

Having said that, I will quickly address your recent questions while this is still fresh in my mind.

It is widely accepted that heaven, in contrast to hell, will be free of suffering. Did you dispute this when you wrote:

As for what heaven will be like, only God knows. He has not revealed specifics.

? I don't think you did. I think that all you did was avoid the relevant discussion.

I wasn't trying to avoid the relevant discussion since, as I pointed out above, I really don't know what it is. I do think heaven will be free of suffering but how God will accomplish that, no one knows.

In any case, do you now dispute the mandatory association of free will and suffering, or that there will not be suffering in heaven? If so, how?

If not, then it follows logically that souls in heaven cannot have free will, and my answer to Bro L stands: I don't want to be a robot forever.

I don't think that you can have it both ways Free, and I've seen no explanation from you indicating how you can. I think that all you've done is avoid the real explanation.

I think suffering is the direct result of free will and I think that free will is necessary in order to truly love God. The best explanation for heaven is the one I gave: that since heaven will only be for those who, in this life, have made the choice to love God, there would no real violation of free will if God takes away all suffering. It certainly would have been a violation if we had not had the choice to begin with. I would think that God would want robots to love him as much as we would want to be robots.

I also think that the problem of evil and how it is usually phrased supports my point and shows the flaw with the question rather than shows a flaw with the Christian concept of God. The questioner is struggling with the idea of an omnipotent, all-loving God allowing suffering. What they are in effect doing though is ignoring the role that free will plays. The result is that the question leads to us having to be robots so that there is no suffering. They want free will but they don't want the choice to cause someone else suffering. But that is precisely what free will is not.

If we have free will, while on this earth (during this Age, so to speak), we have suffering. But, as I previously stated, I see no contradiction with God removing the ability to cause suffering and still having free will for those who have already made the choice to love God in this life, once they are in heaven.

Just a few ramblings which I haven't completely thought through.

My internet security and Windows are both wanting me to restart after some updates. If you never hear from me again, you know why.

 

[AAA]

I think suffering is the direct result of free will.

Ie. free will necessarily introduces suffering.

I see no contradiction with God removing the ability to cause suffering and still having free will ... in heaven.

Ie. free will does not necessarily introduce suffering.

This apparent contradiction seems to be addressed with the following hand-waving:

I do think heaven will be free of suffering but how God will accomplish that, no one knows.

Isn't this just the old "god works in mysterious ways" explanation, which is really no explanation at all, but just a way to avoid having to provide an explanation.

 

[Free]

AAA[/i]]

I think suffering is the direct result of free will.

Ie. free will necessarily introduces suffering.

As I clearly stated above: in this life, now, yes.

AAA[/i]]

I see no contradiction with God removing the ability to cause suffering and still having free will ... in heaven.

Ie. free will does not necessarily introduce suffering.

Again, as I stated above: in heaven, the next life, yes.

AAA[/i]]This apparent contradiction seems to be addressed with the following hand-waving:

I do think heaven will be free of suffering but how God will accomplish that, no one knows.

Isn't this just the old "god works in mysterious ways" explanation, which is really no explanation at all, but just a way to avoid having to provide an explanation.

No. The point is that there is no explanation. The Bible is clear that suffering was introduced through an act of free will. The Bible is also clear that heaven will be free of suffering but that those there are those who already chose to have a relationship with God in this life. How those who will be in heaven can be free of suffering and still have free will, no one knows.

 

[AAA]

Free,

I can't compete with your consistently short response times!

It seems that we agree that there is no explanation for the contradiction between the mandatory association between free will and suffering in this, the best of all possible worlds that the omnipotent and omni-benevolent Christian god could have created for us, and the non-mandatory association between free will and suffering in the next world. In your own words:

The point is that there is no explanation.

Where we seem to disagree is where you believe that there must be an explanation for this contradiction, though it is unknown to us. (This is what I mean by "the lord works in mysterious ways", the statement that, in my experience, most, if not all Christian responses to Christian concepts that don't seem to make sense essentially boil down to.)

If the Christian god is apparently capable of providing us with a world where we can have free will yet not suffer, the how can this world be the best of all possible worlds, given that in this world, we are forced to suffer apparently because of our having free will?