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Questions I asked on the Atheist Forum

P

perspective

Guest
I asked these questions to unbelivers and I thought I would throw it this way to.


1. Tell me what you think evil is.
2. Do you think the existence of evil and suffering is a serious obstacle to belief in God?
3. Do you think that free will explains most of the evil in the world?
4. Is your atheism a result of personal suffering, or the suffering of a loved one? If yes, could you share what happened? If no then why do you not believe in God?
5. Why do you think that atheism better explains the problem of evil than theism?
6. Some have said that the comfort from religious belief is that no deed done goes unnoticed from God, and that even if they "get away with it" from the eyes of justice, they will still be held accountable with God. Does the possibility of real justice (from theism) make it a promising way to look at the problem of evil?
 
Gabriel Ali said:
animal said:
There are atheist forums? What do they talk about.. nothing?

Ironically, more often than not; its Religion.


They see what all these craZy 'religious' people have and they want it, they won't admit it,but they want it. It's only natural. :)
 
I would agree that there is a certain "lostness" in those who have not opened their mind to the Creator - though for some it is not to obvious.

However, I see an equal or greater lostness of those in various religious systems - systems which have created an institution that is between them and God Himself (the graces only being dispensed by the magicians who turn bread to God....), etc.

Who is the most lost???

Best,
Anth
 
Jon-Marc said:
[quote="Gabriel Ali":259cwb9b]
animal said:
There are atheist forums? What do they talk about.. nothing?

Ironically, more often than not; its Religion.

And probably how false it is--in their opinion?[/quote:259cwb9b]

Yes, and a lot worse.
 
Jon-Marc said:
[quote="Gabriel Ali":2ksbw7xf]
animal said:
There are atheist forums? What do they talk about.. nothing?

Ironically, more often than not; its Religion.

And probably how false it is--in their opinion?[/quote:2ksbw7xf]
They're probably usually correct, unless they're talkin' 'bout biblical Christianity.
 
I am in my second year of seminary and the answers that I got when I posted this on the atheist forum were very logical and challenging. I would encourage any strong of faith to join these websites and interact. It is one of the best ways to grow your faith because these people are smart and will challenge you with hard questions. Of course there is always a defense for the faith, but explaining and researching is intense and rewarding. Also, I wanted some in this forum to answer the questions.
 
I am in my second year of seminary and the answers that I got when I posted this on the atheist forum were very logical and challenging. I would encourage any strong of faith to join these websites and interact. It is one of the best ways to grow your faith because these people are smart and will challenge you with hard questions. Of course there is always a defense for the faith, but explaining and researching is intense and rewarding. Also, I wanted some in this forum to answer the questions.

P

Thanks for posting this - I agree that we should be able to interact with anyone anywhere - if we have the real thing in the first place. I agree that you will find highly intelligent, sensitive and aware individuals here - I am always sadded by the disparaging stereotypes of those who maintain an atheist "theology".

There are a couple of the reasons why people would be drawn to this - including the very weak thinking of those who call themselves "Christians" which is so blatant and, of late, the neo-fascist right-wing infiltration into the Church of Jesus Christ leading not only to more weaking thinking and silly talking points but to an advocacy of oppression and violence. It is no wonder to me that atheism looks popular - with such a vile distortion of Christ being presented.

I might take a bit of issue with your statement "Of course there is always a defense for the faith". Frankly, I can think of at least a few real basics that have no defense - but I am not sure there is necessarily a problem with that. I don't think anyone of any persuasion has "all the answers". Paul specifically stated that "now we see through a glass darkly, but then face to fact". Our our religion compells us to recognize the "gaps" of understanding and knowledge. We simply need to learn to accept them rather than making up silly reasons that rejected outright and lead to more disparagement to the name of Jesus.

Best,
In Him
Anth
 
Hello all. I am very much new here, and this is my first post.

I signed up to fulfill the OP's desire to see somebody in these forums answer these questions. However, as an atheist, and as a new member, I am not sure that I am meeting the standard which he intended.

Anyway, here we go.

1. Tell me what you think evil is.

This one is particularly fun, as evil is something which is very difficult to explain in an objective manner. Perhaps the OP does not want an objective answer, however. Evil is difficult to label for me, because understanding actions requires an understanding of the person committing said actions. There are too many variables involved in answering this question, and I would need to do so in an essay format in order to be satisfied with my answer.

2. Do you think the existence of evil and suffering is a serious obstacle to belief in God.

Considering the spelling of 'God', I am made to assume you mean the Christian god of Christianity's holy book. As previously stated, I do not view evil objectively, so I can not answer this question in that regard. I can, however, answer in regard to suffering. The plain and simple answer is "no".

After reading the Holy Bible, I have no objection to his existence and the existence of suffering. In fact, it seems as though the Christian god, as portrayed by the bible, enjoys suffering on Earth.

My problems with suffering and the existence of god only come in to play when I am faced with the image of the Christian god as he is seen by many modern followers. At least by the majority of those who attempt to convert me. This image, of course, is that of the personal, omni-benevolent creator being who loves all of his creations as a parent. I am sure that I do not need to spell out my view on this any further.

3. Do you think that free will explains most of the evil in the world.

The answer to this question relies on one's personal definition of evil. I would say "no".
My reasoning is that many of the acts which I come to know of in my every day life can be rationalized through investigation of the individual committing the acts.
For instance: Middle Eastern suicide bombers could easily be picked out as evil. And one could say that they choose to commit the acts they do.

The distinct line of evil becomes blurred, however, when you try to see these decisions from the eyes of the one taking action. These people believe that committing these acts, which I see as terrible, are the best thing they can do in the eyes of their god. To top it off, they are raised from childhood with a glorified image of this.

Can you easily say that if you were raised by your parents, from the day you were old enough to understand language, to think that it is okay to steal and cheat and lie, and that it is what you must do to survive, that you would choose freely to not do so?

My personal opinion is that the most evil deed committed is that of parents teaching their children what to think, in stead of teaching them how to think. And this act does not require a god, nor does it require, or even leave much room for, free will.

I apologize if i strayed from the original point of the question on that one.

4. Is your atheism a result of personal suffering, or the suffering of a loved one? If yes, could you share what happened? If no then why do you not believe in God?

The plain and simple answer to this is that I have never believed in a god. Not the Christian god, not the Muslim god, not the gods of Olympus.

I apologize in advance for this deviation from the point, but I feel that I must explain that I never made a choice to not believe.

If you will allow, I want to enter in to record a personal anecdote. Take it or leave it, it's up to you.

When I was all of seven years old, I was riding to school on the big yellow cheese, and a friend of mine, who I am still friends with to this day, eighteen years after, was talking about his religious beliefs. His beliefs being Christianity, particularly Roman Catholicism. I don't remember the exact question he posed to me, but I do remember my response. In reply to his question, I simply stated "I don't believe in god." His reply was "Well, you're going to Hell in a hand basket." A phrase I had heard numerous times by that age, though not always directed toward me.

The point of that statement was simply to show that I had an active stance of disbelief in the supernatural from a very young age. It was not something I chose, it was simply my state of mind.

5. Why do you think that atheism better explains the problem of evil than theism?

The question posed is too broad. Theism is simply the belief in a god or gods. Evil can be viewed in so many different ways depending on what god to which the individual subscribes, and even then, the definition of evil can change depending on whether it is an individual or a society which believes in said god.

Atheism is simply the lack of belief in a supernatural god being.

And even were the question posed in a more direct manner, there still exists the variable definition of evil.

Perhaps a better question to ask would be if suffering can be better explained by the existence or non existence of the Christian god.

I will not go in to detail on this question, as it could easily be misconstrued as an attempt by myself to set up a strawman, which I have no desire to do. I will check back to see what you guys think of my reply, and If the OP chooses to reword this question for me, I will attempt to answer it.

6. Some have said that the comfort from religious belief is that no deed done goes unnoticed from God, and that even if they "get away with it" from the eyes of justice, they will still be held accountable with God. Does the possibility of real justice (from theism) make it a promising way to look at the problem of evil?

Good one. I would have to say that I am more sickened by this than comforted. For one, this allows individuals to shirk the responsibility of seeking justice against those who have transgressed. Second, this makes your god seem like more of a police force than a parent. Also, I see this as a problem because the justice of the Monotheistic god is simply tyrannical. Eternal punishment for a finite transgression is simply too much. The point of punishment is to show the recipient his wrong doing, and to change behavior. Eternal damnation achieves neither of these goals. Besides, does it not seem to anyone else that we, as a society, are more interested in punishing the wicked than we are in rewarding the righteous?

Another problem I have with this question is that it seems only to focus on evil. In your question you state that "no deed done goes unnoticed from God", which is simply a lie. As an atheist I am constantly bombarded by the assertion that if I do not believe in, repent to and accept as my personal savior, the Christian god, then I will forever burn. This punishment fails to take in to account all of the good deeds I have committed, regardless of the fact that I do not believe that I will receive any reward for doing so.

So simply, the statement that "no deed goes unnoticed by God" is a flat out lie. It should be reworded to properly imply that no wicked deed goes unnoticed.

Once again I apologize. The end of that might have seemed somewhat like a rant, but I have become somewhat embittered toward religion over the years because of the persecution I have received for no other reason than not sharing the same set of beliefs. I can only imagine what it is like for those who live in regions of the world which are less tolerant of disbelief in the current prescription.

Anyway, thank you for your time and consideration.
Jason
 
Jason,

Thanks for your post and thanks for participating. While I am a newbie and so cannot meaningfully speak for this board, I can speak for myself in Christ. You are always welcome as another human being to fellowship with me as a human being - our humanity is our most fundamental commonality - not our respective ideology. I think this captures the agape that Jesus called us to (if I understand correctly).

You have a sincere and pure heart. I might add that I was "raised" atheist - and was of the EXACT same sentiment for you - albeit somewhat more hostile to Evangelicalism (though probably not as much as I am today now that I am walking in Christ and see the deviancies of Evangelicalism in the light of what I understand to be God's word (or, at least, contain a reflection of His truth).

I have nothing more to share except my humble and appreciative welcome. I will be out of town for a few days so if you respond to me and don't hear anything back - that is why.

Best,
Anth
 
SolarAsthma said:
Perhaps a better question to ask would be if suffering can be better explained by the existence or non existence of the Christian god.

Good one. I would have to say that I am more sickened by this than comforted. For one, this allows individuals to shirk the responsibility of seeking justice against those who have transgressed. Second, this makes your god seem like more of a police force than a parent. Also, I see this as a problem because the justice of the Monotheistic god is simply tyrannical. Eternal punishment for a finite transgression is simply too much. The point of punishment is to show the recipient his wrong doing, and to change behavior. Eternal damnation achieves neither of these goals. Besides, does it not seem to anyone else that we, as a society, are more interested in punishing the wicked than we are in rewarding the righteous?

Another problem I have with this question is that it seems only to focus on evil. In your question you state that "no deed done goes unnoticed from God", which is simply a lie. As an atheist I am constantly bombarded by the assertion that if I do not believe in, repent to and accept as my personal savior, the Christian god, then I will forever burn. This punishment fails to take in to account all of the good deeds I have committed, regardless of the fact that I do not believe that I will receive any reward for doing so.

If (let's say) God chooses people who believe in Him to spend eternity with Him, and those who don't to burn in hell, which group are you in? If neither, why spend time talking about something that doesn't exist? If to enlighten us, why not talk about the enlightenment rather than hell?

And pain. Maybe there's something greater than suffering. You might have a look at Voice of the Martyrs some time, or http://www.persecution.com. The martyrs described there (more people are dying today for Christ than ever before) deliberately put themselves in extreme danger. And they don't sue their persecutors; they undergo unspeakable joy, many of them, while they are tortured. How? I respectfully submit you do not know.

If you are really "constantly bombarded" by people warning you about hell, you might consider getting some new acquaintances.
 
Ok I'll bite.

1. Tell me what you think evil is.

Evil is a strong word but I would say anything "wrong" would be any action that is not conducive to a society.

2. Do you think the existence of evil and suffering is a serious obstacle to belief in God?

No.

3. Do you think that free will explains most of the evil in the world?

Unless forced or resisted by another human, people do whatever they want to all the time. From feeding the homeless to picking their nose and even to killing in the name of their god. Every action is the result of free will. ..Or a neurological problem.

4. Is your atheism a result of personal suffering, or the suffering of a loved one? If yes, could you share what happened? If no then why do you not believe in God?

No.

5. Why do you think that atheism better explains the problem of evil than theism?

I only care about what is true and the existence of the supernatural is way down on my list of things I consider a possibility. Nothing is going to solve evil. I do believe a mindset away from religiosity and towards oneness with humankind would be a big step forward though.

6. Some have said that the comfort from religious belief is that no deed done goes unnoticed from God, and that even if they "get away with it" from the eyes of justice, they will still be held accountable with God. Does the possibility of real justice (from theism) make it a promising way to look at the problem of evil?

Considering belief in God is the cause of so much evil then no of course it doesn't.
 
You have a sincere and pure heart. I might add that I was "raised" atheist - and was of the EXACT same sentiment for you - albeit somewhat more hostile to Evangelicalism

I wouldn't say my heart is all too pure, but I do attempt to be sincere.

Also, I was never raised as an atheist. Both of my parents are believers in the Christian god, and neither of them are all too thrilled about my "decision" to not believe in their god. My mother constantly tells me I am going to hell because of it.

Regardless of this persecution even from my own mother, I am thankful to her for not teaching me to, or not to believe. I simply never believed.

Thanks for your reply :D

If (let's say) God chooses people who believe in Him to spend eternity with Him, and those who don't to burn in hell, which group are you in?

In this situation it is clear which group I belong to.

Here are a couple questions I pose to you, good sir.

Is it just to punish somebody for a thought crime? Even if it is a crime of simply not having a specific thought?

Would it be more right for me to pay lip service to the god which makes this decision even though I do not sincerely believe? Would the omniscient creator being who the Christian god is portrayed as not see through my ploy to get in to heaven? Besides, if I were to say I believe when I do not truly believe I would be lying. I'm fairly certain that would cause me to end up in hell, even if I begged forgiveness.

If your premise is true, then there is simply no way for a person like myself to enter heaven.
I never chose to not believe. I feel comfortable assuming that you never chose to believe. This is not an act of free will.

If the above stated is true, then it would seem that your god has created me for the sole purpose of being eternally tortured.

If neither, why spend time talking about something that doesn't exist? If to enlighten us, why not talk about the enlightenment rather than hell?

Is hell not the most important part of all of this? To me hell seems like the root of the problem.

Besides that, the existence or non existence of the Christian god does not change the effect of the religion on my life.

And pain. Maybe there's something greater than suffering.

I do not understand. Please elaborate.

You might have a look at Voice of the Martyrs some time, or http://www.persecution.com.
I have not yet explored the website linked in depth, but based on a cursory glance I am to assume it is a site dedicated to the persecution of Christians in parts of the world where Christianity is not dominant.

I will have to take a closer look at this before responding.

And they don't sue their persecutors;

I imagine this is because their case would not hold up in local courts.

they undergo unspeakable joy, many of them, while they are tortured. How? I respectfully submit you do not know.

Your submission is entirely accurate. That is one of my most basic points. As a person who never chose to or to not believe, I am incapable of understanding such things. It is something which I am completely on the outside of. I can attempt to rationalize these things through critical analysis, and while I might be correct, I can never know for sure.

If you are really "constantly bombarded" by people warning you about hell, you might consider getting some new acquaintances.

Has it not occurred to you that perhaps much of the persecution I receive is not from those with whom I acquaint myself?

Thank you for your replies.
Jason
 
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