Bible Study Questions...

[Solo]

Whereas, the Jews will be saved in there keeping of the law and ordinances.

They rejected Jesus in favor of their laws and ordinances, therefore how well they did in keeping the law and ordinances will be the yardstick by which they will be saved.

Well, this a pretty strong statement, but I see what you are saying. Even still, this is not true for any Jew. This is true for all human beings who are unbelievers. not just "Jews" because Torah is not a "Jewish" Torah.

Leviticus 24:22 Ye shall have one manner of Torah, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am YHWH your God.

The misconceptions and misunderstandings of the syntax of words causes more heartache than not. I submit that the Law was given to every tribe of Israel by Moses after the Exodus. All belief and unbelief is dependent upon each individual's faith, not by their keeping a rule or ordinance or Law. Your conception and understanding of Israel is different than most believers. In fact you are the very first person that I have heard, speak of such of thing. Do I believe that you are correct? No. Do I think that you have been deluded into believing a little extra something that is not really backed by the whole Word of God? Yes.

Therefore you and I can agree that we are on a different level of understanding, and that only God himself will rise to correct either or both of us, if we submit to his sovereignty.

 

[cj]

You know Wavy, you could just have asked cj what he meant by what he said.

Those who rejected Christ preferring to hold to the laws/ordinances and prophets will be judged according to the yardstick of that which they attempted to hold to.

The law/ordinances and prophets are simply a shadow of the reality called Christ, and by holding to the shadow a person is in fact saying to God "Judge me by that which I hold to, the law/ordinances and the prophets."

There were righteous-before-God men who walked the earth at the time of Jesus' birth. These men will be saved according to that which they held to.

The same principle holds true for those that came before the law/ordinances and the prophets. Noah, Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Joseph, and many others; all lived before the law/ordinances and the prophets and thus will be judged according to what God dispensed at that time regarding the conditions of His relationship with them.


In love,
cj

 

[wavy]

You know Wavy, you could just have asked cj what he meant by what he said.

Cj was not on and I assumed I knew what you meant. Thank you for clarifying.

The law/ordinances and prophets are simply a shadow of the reality called Christ,

Nowhere in scripture.

all lived before the law/ordinances and the prophets and thus will be judged according to what God dispensed at that time regarding the conditions of His relationship with them.

This is dispensationalism. Something I hold as false. All men are saved only by grace through faith and the calling upon of YHWH's Name. There was never any other prerequisite to justification and salvation after the fall other than these things.

 

[cj]

The Jews will be saved by how well they kept the Law and ordinances (which they didn't keep, therefore they will not be saved), or by their belief in God as redeemer through the Messiah. The Israelites are not saved then by the Law, but by understanding the impossible task of being righteous as God's Law revealed, therefore, requiring God as their saviour, which Jesus is God their Savior.

You need to be careful here Solo,..... there are Jews who will be saved according to the laws/ordinances and the prophets because this is all they knew based on what God had revealed at that time.

Scripture tells us that even at the time that Jesus was born there were righteous men living.

Righteous how? Righteous in the law/ordinances and the prophets.

The problem comes in after Jesus has presented Himself to the Jews and been rejected by them. But even that still requires some caution, as scripture tells us not to judge another's slaves.

But as far as I can see in my limitations, those who have heard the gospel preached (after Jesus' death/burial/resurrection/ascension) and have rejected it, and died in their rejection, will suffer eternal death.

Only the Lord knows though. See, in the OT we can find an interesting little known expression of God's heart.... concerning the Nazarite vow, the God allowed what we can call a kind of "side-door" through which a person who was not born into the Jewish priesthood (Levite) could become such.

God is merciful, and we need to remember this and even pray that His great mercy be shown to all.


So, the above aside,...... what happens when the Lord returns openly and the Jews see Him and believe?

Those who believe will be saved,.... but, not saved in the same manner as those who believed without seeing.

Abrahams promised reward from God are for those of his seed who believe by faith (not sight).

In love,
cj

 

[cj]

Nowhere in scripture.

You obviously don't know the scriptures....

Hebrews  10 : 1, "For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, not the image itself of the things, can never by the same sacrifices year by year, which they offer continually, perfect those who draw near."

Hebrews  8 : 5 "Who serve the example (shadow of the reality) and shadow of the heavenly things, even as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to complete the tabernacle; for, "See,'' He said, "that you make all things according to the pattern (according to the reality in heaven) that was shown to you in the mountain.''

Hebrews  9 : 23 "It was necessary therefore for the examples (shadow of the reality) of the things in the heavens to be purified by these, but the heavenly things themselves, by better sacrifices than these."

This is dispensationalism. Something I hold as false.

So what? You are clueless about scriptures so why would we think that you would have any understanding about God's economy.

All men are saved only by grace through faith and the calling upon of YHWH's Name.

And some received His grace and yet expressed it in different ways.

Dispensationalism is just a matter of how God was dispensing His grace at a particular time in human history.

When the Jews were in the desert how did they receive God's grace? Is it the same way a man receives God's grace today, by believing into the Name of a man, Jesus, and believing that He died for our sins and has come to dwell in us as the Spirit?

I don't think so, see the Jews in Moses' time had never heard of Jesus, much less of His cricifiction and resurrection, so how then could they have believed in it?

There was never any other prerequisite to justification and salvation after the fall other than these things.

See, you make the common mistake of looking at things from the human perspective.

Don't look at things through human eyes, look at things through God's eyes.

How does God see the dispensing of His grace to mankind over man's history? Was it always according to one way of dispensing or was it according to several different ways of dispensing?


In love,
cj

 

[wavy]

You obviously don't know the scriptures....

Hebrews  10 : 1,

Hebrews  8 : 5

Hebrews  9 : 23

If we read in context, we'll see this concerns Tabernacle services through the priesthood. I've used these scriptures several times in my posts. Please do not accuse me of what I don't know because it does not agree with what you believe.

So what? You are clueless about scriptures so why would we think that you would have any understanding about God's economy.

Whatever happened to that humility you were accusing John of lacking?

And some received His grace and yet expressed it in different ways.

How many different ways can he have it?

I don't think so, see the Jews in David's time had never heard of Jesus, much less of His cricifiction and resurrection, so how then could they have believed in it?

They trusted in YHWH. And when they sinned, they looked to YHWH to forgive and not impute that sin to them. David, for example know of Yahweh's grace:

Psalm 32:1 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
Psalm 32:2 Blessed is the man unto whom YHWH imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

See, you make the common mistake of looking at things from the human perspective.

Don't look at things through human eyes, look at things through God's eyes.

Well, we won't argue this. We could say this back and forth to eachother and everyone else all day.

How does God see the dispensing of His grace to mankind over man's history? Was it always according to one way of dispensing or was it according to several different ways of dispensing?

One way. Not charging sin to a man who loved YHWH with all his heart and knew YHWH as salvation.

 

[cj]

If we read in context, we'll see this concerns Tabernacle services through the priesthood.

You just confirmed my point.

Yet you did so thinking you were doing the opposite.

This is why I say you are clueless about the scriptures.

Whatever happened to that humility you were accusing John of lacking?

Oh, its present,... you just need to look further than the end of your upward pointing nose to see it.

They trusted in YHWH. And when they sinned, they looked to YHWH to forgive and not impute that sin to them. David, for example know of Yahweh's grace:

Sure they did, never said anything different.

But that's not what we're discussing,..... so, lets try again.....

How did God dispense his grace to me during the ages? Was it always according to the same dispensing way?

It really is not a hard question to answer Wavy,... just say yes if you think God dispensed His grace in the same way during all the ages, or just say no if you think God did not dispense His grace the same way through the ages.

One way. Not charging sin to a man who loved YHWH with all his heart and knew YHWH as salvation.

Okay, so you answered "yes" God dispensed His grace to men the same "one way" throughout the ages.

Good.

Now answer me this question....... since Jesus and His Name, and His death/burial/resurrection/ascension were unknown of at the time of Moses and thus could not be believed in, what was necessary for a man to receive God's grace?

Or in other words,.... when the law/ordinances and prophets were around, could a Jew simply ignore them and just love God with all His heart, knowing God as his salvation, and be saved?

Or would such a Jew be cast out or even put to death, meaning, no receiving of grace?


In love,
cj

 

[wavy]

You just confirmed my point.

Yet you did so thinking you were doing the opposite.

This is why I say you are clueless about the scriptures.

If you continue with these type of comments, a moderator will catch them soon enough. If not, I'll just be forced to stop debating with you. So, let's just debate without have to resort to these types of comments.

Oh, its present,... you just need to look further than the end of your upward pointing nose to see it.

Above.

Now answer me this question....... since Jesus and His Name, and His death/burial/resurrection/ascension were unknown of at the time of Moses and thus could not be believed in, what was necessary for a man to receive God's grace?

The same way: trusting in YHWH and believing what he says according to what he's revealed in his Word.

Or in other words,.... when the law/ordinances and prophets were around,

They still are.

could a Jew simply ignore them and just love God with all His heart, knowing God as his salvation, and be saved?

This is Torah. This is Prophets:

Matthew 22:37 And Yahshua said to him, "You shall love YHWH your Elohim with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind."
Matthew 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Matthew 22:39 And the second is like it: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
Matthew 22:40 On these two commandments all the Torah and the Neviim hang.

The motivation for truly keeping Yahweh's Word/Torah according to a pure heart is loving Yahweh with all your heart. You have separated them. You can't forget the Torah and Prophets and assume to just "love YHWH". Torah was never given for salvation. Torah was supposed to be kept knowing YHWH was salvation. The means of salvation never changes.

Or would such a Jew be cast out or even put to death, meaning, no receiving of grace?

I don't understand this question.

 

[Rick W]

If you continue with these type of comments, a moderator will catch them soon enough. If not, I'll just be forced to stop debating with you. So, let's just debate without have to resort to these types of comments.

Well done wavy.

 

[cj]

If you continue with these type of comments, a moderator will catch them soon enough. If not, I'll just be forced to stop debating with you. So, let's just debate without have to resort to these types of comments.

Whatever toots your horn Wavy.

The same way: trusting in YHWH and believing what he says according to what he's revealed in his Word.

Is that "His word up to a particular point in time", or is that "His word as we have come to know it today"?

Truth is Wavy you really did not answer my original question, so I'll ask it again...

"..since Jesus and His Name, and His death/burial/resurrection/ascension were unknown of at the time of Moses and thus could not be believed in, what was necessary for a man to receive God's grace?"

They still are.

But there's now more, for God has come Himself.

You're dancing Wavy,.... is it because you have no real answer?

This is Torah. This is Prophets:

Matthew 22:37 And Yahshua said to him, "You shall love YHWH your Elohim with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind."
Matthew 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Matthew 22:39 And the second is like it: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
Matthew 22:40 On these two commandments all the Torah and the Neviim hang.

The motivation for truly keeping Yahweh's Word/Torah according to a pure heart is loving Yahweh with all your heart.

Its wonderful that you see this,..... but the most important point you made is... "The motivation for truly keeping Yahweh's Word/Torah according to a pure heart is loving Yahweh with all your heart."

Thus in your own words you say a pure heart is required before anything else.

Good, we're getting somewhere.

Now lets see if we can find out what a pure heart looks like.

Do you know?

You have separated them. You can't forget the Torah and Prophets and assume to just "love YHWH". Torah was never given for salvation. Torah was supposed to be kept knowing YHWH was salvation. The means of salvation never changes.

First off, "keeping" the commandments/ordinances was for salvation. Both during a man's lifetime (God did not destroy the Jews) and concerning eternity (for Jews who kept the law will be judged according to the requirements of the law).

And the meaning of slavation most certainly changes....... as more light is revealed concerning the matter of salvation.

Tell me, why do you think that the least in the kingdom will be greater than John the Baptist.

And even more..... Jesus used John as a high-point of "pre-Christ coming" men,..... which includes the prophets and the law keepers, for which of those are not included in "Among those born of women"?

I don't understand this question.

My point was this,..... a Jew could.... without a pure heart...... participate in all the forms required by the law/ordinances and be considered righteous before God; this is righteousness out of the law.

The law did not require the circumcision of the heart,.... spiritual circumcision.

But God's perfect will for man does.


In love,
cj

 

[cj]

Well done wavy.

Forgive me PotLuck,... but when scripture is presented with the intention of making a point with it and it is shown to mean aomething else, pretty much that kinda says that the person who used the scripture improperly is clueless about scripture.

Should i have used more scriptural words, like ignorant, blind, or darkened.

In love,
cj