[_ Old Earth _] Radio Dating / Science

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Douglas Summers

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Why is this in the Bible Study forum?
 
Ok, I will take a look see and have it moved.
 
The interesting thing pertaining to dating techniques is that the whole apple cart seems to have been turned up-side-down and the apples are lying all over the ground.
What happened?
...they find C14 in coal and diamonds that shouldn't be there. If coal and diamonds are as old as they have been "dated" to there shouldn't be any C14 left.
....They find soft dinosaur tissue. Soft dinosaur dissue isn't expected to survive for 65+ MY's. It should have rotted or decayed away long, long ago.
 
Cygnus said:
The interesting thing pertaining to dating techniques is that the whole apple cart seems to have been turned up-side-down and the apples are lying all over the ground.
Click to expand...

I keep hearing these stories, but every time I take a look, it's just another fairy tale by people who don't understand how it works.

What happened?
Click to expand...

People being fooled by those who don't know much about it.

...they find C14 in coal and diamonds that shouldn't be there.
Click to expand...

Coal has two sources of C-14:
1. bacterial and mold growth in the interstices of seams.
2. formation of new C-14 from radioactive elements in coal, converting nitrogen into C-14.
(Uranium is a common element in such coal deposits)

Diamonds turn out to be found in "pipes" with relatively abundant levels of thorium and uranium. Nitrogen is a common inclusion in the carbon lattices of diamonds, so it's not surprising that C-14 would be produced there.

If coal and diamonds are as old as they have been "dated" to there shouldn't be any C14 left.
Click to expand...

It's not old. It's forming as we speak.

...They find soft dinosaur tissue.
Click to expand...

Not so far, they haven't. "Tissue" is cells grouped together in a functional way. So far, no one has even confirmed cells, much less tissue. There are some organic molecules that can survive many millions of years in the right conditions, but no cells and no tissue so far.

Oh, and scientists don't use C-14 to date fossils. Might want to go check on that.
 
Barbarian said:
I keep hearing these stories, but every time I take a look, it's just another fairy tale by people who don't understand how it works.



People being fooled by those who don't know much about it.



Coal has two sources of C-14:
1. bacterial and mold growth in the interstices of seams.
2. formation of new C-14 from radioactive elements in coal, converting nitrogen into C-14.
(Uranium is a common element in such coal deposits)

Diamonds turn out to be found in "pipes" with relatively abundant levels of thorium and uranium. Nitrogen is a common inclusion in the carbon lattices of diamonds, so it's not surprising that C-14 would be produced there.



It's not old. It's forming as we speak.



Not so far, they haven't. "Tissue" is cells grouped together in a functional way. So far, no one has even confirmed cells, much less tissue. There are some organic molecules that can survive many millions of years in the right conditions, but no cells and no tissue so far.

Oh, and scientists don't use C-14 to date fossils. Might want to go check on that.
Click to expand...

Nice claims, but simple to refute.
Perhaps a reference would help. The RATE program would tend to disagree with you.

...as far as confirming them as cells....they stretch. Under a microscope, they appear as cells.
 
Cygnus said:
The interesting thing pertaining to dating techniques is that the whole apple cart seems to have been turned up-side-down and the apples are lying all over the ground.
What happened?
...they find C14 in coal and diamonds that shouldn't be there. If coal and diamonds are as old as they have been "dated" to there shouldn't be any C14 left.
....They find soft dinosaur tissue. Soft dinosaur dissue isn't expected to survive for 65+ MY's. It should have rotted or decayed away long, long ago.
Click to expand...
Hi Cygnus, I have put some web sites up of coal mines that have discovered Forrest and uprooted trees, over 250 ft. down, even trees upside down. It is theorized that during the universal flood by God, that the rapid and rushing water deposited organic sediment over the various places, covering antediluvian land masses. Just thought you would find it informing.
 
Cygnus said:
Nice claims, but simple to refute.
Click to expand...

So many have claimed. But as in this case, no refutation follows. For reasons that aren't hard to understand.

Perhaps a reference would help.
Click to expand...

The RATE program would tend to disagree with you.
Click to expand...

RATE seems to have fallen apart, by internal disagreement. The summary in chapter 10 of the report:

1. There is overwhelming evidence of more than 500 million years worth of radioactive decay.
2. Biblical interpretation and some scientific studies indicate a young earth.
3. Therefore, radioactive decay must have been accelerated by approximately a factor of one billion during the first three days of creation and during the Flood.
4. The concept of accelerated decay leads to two unresolved scientific problems, the heat problem and the radiation problem, though there is confidence that these will be solved in the future.
5. Therefore, the RATE project provides encouragement regarding the reliability of the Bible.
http://www.asa3.org/ASA/education/origins/rate-ri.htm

Certainly gives little comfort to YE creationism. Rates of radioactive breakdown a billion times normal would fry every living thing on Earth. And would have left radiation effects in rocks all over the Earth, much greater than a few polonium halos. And all RATE can say is "we hope to find a way around this problem, someday."

The American Scientific Affiliation, or ASA, was founded in 1941 as an international network of Christians in the sciences. As scientists, members of the ASA take part in humanity’s exploration of nature, its laws, and how it works. As Christians, ASAers want to know not just how the universe operates and came into being, but why it exists in the first place.

Why are we here, and why seemingly alone among all creatures do humans possess the qualities required for scientific research — like curiosity, creativity, and a sense of purpose? When and how did we become this way, and what does that say about our relationship with God?

Who are we, really?

We in the American Scientific Affiliation believe that God is both the creator of our vast universe and is the source of our ability to pursue knowledge — also, that honest and open studies of both scripture and nature are mutually beneficial in developing a full understanding of human identity and our environment.
http://network.asa3.org/?page=ASAAbout

...as far as confirming them as cells....they stretch. Under a microscope, they appear as cells.
Click to expand...

In other words, no evidence that they are cells. So far, collagen and some other organic molecules have been recovered, but no cells, and no tissue.
 
Barbarian said:
In other words, no evidence that they are cells. So far, collagen and some other organic molecules have been recovered, but no cells, and no tissue.
Click to expand...

I used cells to make the understanding simple...and yes the collagen and some other organic molecules should not be there after 65+ MY's.
 
Cygnus said:
I used cells to make the understanding simple...
Click to expand...

Falsehoods do not simplify things. There has been no demonstrated tissue, no demonstrated cells. That is simply untrue.

and yes the collagen and some other organic molecules should not be there after 65+ MY's.
Click to expand...

What makes you think so? Show me your numbers and the reaction rates. In fact, iron-stabilized collagen should survive in oxygen-depleted environments for many millions of years.
 
Barbarian said:
Falsehoods do not simplify things. There has been no demonstrated tissue, no demonstrated cells. That is simply untrue.



What makes you think so? Show me your numbers and the reaction rates. In fact, iron-stabilized collagen should survive in oxygen-depleted environments for many millions of years.
Click to expand...

Then I must challenge your false statements... I've seen video of dino-material being stretched. That fact that the dino material is here....is evidence that the material demonstrated to be originally dino...is young considering it could not have survived for 65+my's

One of the videos mentioned above is here...
 
Barbarian said:
Falsehoods do not simplify things.
What makes you think so? Show me your numbers and the reaction rates. In fact, iron-stabilized collagen should survive in oxygen-depleted environments for many millions of years.
Click to expand...

The concept of iron-stabilized collagen has been shown not to work as the old earthers suggest.

Analysis of Preservation Motifs

Schweitzer et al. (2013a, 2013b) have proposed numerous possible explana- tions for the survival of recovered colla- gen and other soft tissue materials found in T. rex and B. canadensis including for example molecular sheltering, hydro- phobic enrichment, iron-protein block- ing, cross-linking, etc. Undoubtedly all if not most of the proposals have some merit. However, in our view, the matter of these mechanisms explaining deep time survival has not been adequately supported either empirically or by literature review. We begin by merely pointing out that the Fenton chemistry hypothesis supported by the ostrich tis- sue preservation experiment over 2 years, using hemoglobin as a preservative is simply inadequate to extrapolate and infer stabilization over 68 million years. It is unknown if environmental factors like high-low temperature cycling or dehydration might radically alter the test specimens appearance. Is a tissue specimen soaked in blood kept in a laboratory an adequate experiment to model the environmental weathering of postmortem tissue? In this vein, it is again trivially pointed out that the visual inspection method of tissue analysis is woefully inadequate to draw any conclusions concerning a molecular mechanism of stabilization. The group has access to mass spectra evaluation which could have identified footprints of hydroxyl radical presence. As we shall see, a more careful analysis of the mass spectral data related to the particular peptides and sequences shows that some doubt, if not complete rejection, of several preservation motifs is war- ranted. The particular motif that intro- duces more problems than it purportedly solves concerns Fenton chemistry iron fixation of the peptides.

The proposal is essentially hydroxyl free-radical infiltration into soft tissue. The free radicals are generated by iron- biominerals with which the tissue is combined. Success of this mechanism depends upon deployment of the free radicals through an aqueous medium in contact with the polypeptide. We hold that “chemical fingerprints” of this activity should be registered upon the peptides themselves. For example, hydrolytically sensitive amino acids (asparagine, glutamine) should have degraded and free-radical sensitive com- pounds (tyrosine) should have reacted. These observations may seem like an unnecessary if not insignificant detail to observe but recall that the specimens have been in the ground for some 68 million years. If a chemical mechanism (Fenton chemistry or iron mediated hy-droxyl radical fixation) is to be believed, its entire consequent (fugitive water and hydroxyl radicals dosing the peptide remnants) ought to have occurred. Be- low we set out upon an inspection of two general ideas concerning the presence of water and hydroxyl free radicals and their potential signature upon peptide chemistry.

ref. Creation Research Quarterly Volume 51 Spring 2015 number 4
 
Cygnus said:
Then I must challenge your false statements... I've seen video of dino-material being stretched. That fact that the dino material is here....is evidence that the material demonstrated to be originally dino...is young considering it could not have survived for 65+my's
Click to expand...

Notice that your video falsely claims the collagen to be "tissue." And we're still waiting for your evidence that such protein cannot be preserved for many millions of years. Your article from CRS merely says that maybe the observed preservation won't work for millions of years, but offers no evidence beyond "our opinion."

And even your creationists have acknowledged the mechanism is effective for long ages:

Dinosaur Peptide Preservation and Degradation.

  • Source: Creation Research Society Quarterly . Spring2015, Vol. 51 Issue 4, p268-285. 18p.
  • Author(s): DeMassa, John M.; Boudreaux, Edward

More recent work by the same group adds that Fenton type reactions, arising from trace iron discovered with the bone tissue, is responsible for "fixing" the collagen for deep time survival. The present paper reviews these preservation motifs and supportive data in light of fast-degrading amino acids such as asparagine and glutamine, and oxidatively sensitive markers tyrosine, methionine, and histidine that survived the long burial age.
 
Last edited:
Barbarian said:
Notice that your video falsely claims the collagen to be "tissue." And we're still waiting for your evidence that such protein cannot be preserved for many millions of years. Your article from CRS merely says that maybe the observed preservation won't work for millions of years, but offers no evidence beyond "our opinion."

And even your creationists have acknowledged the mechanism is effective for long ages:

Dinosaur Peptide Preservation and Degradation.

  • Source: Creation Research Society Quarterly . Spring2015, Vol. 51 Issue 4, p268-285. 18p.
  • Author(s): DeMassa, John M.; Boudreaux, Edward

More recent work by the same group adds that Fenton type reactions, arising from trace iron discovered with the bone tissue, is responsible for "fixing" the collagen for deep time survival. The present paper reviews these preservation motifs and supportive data in light of fast-degrading amino acids such as asparagine and glutamine, and oxidatively sensitive markers tyrosine, methionine, and histidine that survived the long burial age.
Click to expand...

The thing you seem to fprget is this.....it exist. In several forms. Call it collagen, call it tissue....whatever.....it was found in the dinosaur bones. The problem for you is that it has been found and it should not be here if the earth is old.
 
Cygnus said:
The thing you seem to fprget is this.....it exist.
Click to expand...

But as you learned, chemistry shows us that some proteins can exist for many millions of years in the right conditions.

In several forms. Call it collagen, call it tissue....whatever.....
Click to expand...

Words mean things. If you don't use them as others do, you won't communicate well. Tissue is a group of cells organized to a function or functions. As you learned, there are no identifiable cells, much less tissue.

Just some collagen, which we already knew could last for many millions of years.

The problem for you is that it has been found and it should not be here if the earth is old.
Click to expand...

Chemistry says you're wrong. Can you show me some data that says otherwise?
 
Barbarian said:
But as you learned, chemistry shows us that some proteins can exist for many millions of years in the right conditions.
Click to expand...
The right conditions? So far you have failed to show the right conditions. Instead you have applied bias and circular reasoning to assume they are old.
Hey look, they are found in rock dated by index fossils to be over 65 MY's old....this means the tissue MUST be able to survive in the right conditions.
....sorry, That boat won't float.
 
Cygnus said:
The right conditions? So far you have failed to show the right conditions. Instead you have applied bias and circular reasoning to assume they are old.
Click to expand...

"Circular reasoning" is assuming what you intended to prove. We know they are very old, because they are found in rocks that have been demonstrated by a number of independent kinds of tests to be very old. No different than finding a metal article in undisturbed Minoan ruins that had been dated by several different methods, and concluding that the article was made by a Minoan craftsman.

Hey look, they are found in rock dated by index fossils ...
Click to expand...

(And physicists. And geologists. And paleontologists, each using entirely different methods all arriving at the same length of time)

to be over 65 MY's old....this means the tissue MUST be able to survive in the right conditions.
Click to expand...

Nice try.....but sorry, That boat won't float. Show us some evidence for your new hypothesis that these molecules can't last for millions of years. And "we know they can't last for millions of years, because molecules like that can't last for millions of years" won't cut it.
 
Barbarian said:
"Circular reasoning" is assuming what you intended to prove. We know they are very old, because they are found in rocks that have been demonstrated by a number of independent kinds of tests to be very old. No different than finding a metal article in undisturbed Minoan ruins that had been dated by several different methods, and concluding that the article was made by a Minoan craftsman.



(And physicists. And geologists. And paleontologists, each using entirely different methods all arriving at the same length of time)



Nice try.....but sorry, That boat won't float. Show us some evidence for your new hypothesis that these molecules can't last for millions of years. And "we know they can't last for millions of years, because molecules like that can't last for millions of years" won't cut it.
Click to expand...

Problem is, as I said above...the apple cart was toppled. The soft dino tissue clearly shows that.
You said...."Show us some evidence for your new hypothesis that these molecules can't last for millions of years."....Well for starters, common sense.
Secondly, why are the "molecules"...right next to the soft tissue...not preserved?
 
Cygnus said:
Problem is, as I said above...the apple cart was toppled. The soft dino tissue clearly shows that.
Click to expand...

As you just learned, there is no dinosaur tissue in evidence. No cells, either. Just a few molecule of collagen, which science has shown, have rates of degradation that can be for many millions of years.

Show us some evidence for your new hypothesis that these molecules can't last for millions of years.

Well for starters, common sense.
Click to expand...

So, it comes down to "I want to believe it, so it has to be true?" That's all you have?

Secondly, why are the "molecules"...right next to the soft tissue...
Click to expand...

As you learned, there is no tissue there. Even the people who found the collagen admit that there isn't.
 
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