Rapture and Tribulation

[Guest]

There aren't any.

Ok mr grumpy whatever you say. Even though I'm not a scholar in theology or a Bible professor in Revelations or Pre Tribulation, I do however know that the Lord is good and his love is sufficient. I'm going to bed, nighty night. ;)

 

[JLB]

I believe that the Bible is clear about tribulation and a rapture before the tribulation. The tribulation period is going to be very bad for Christians who would be left behind. When God has a provision for us to escape it, it makes no sense for us to lean on our own faulty understanding and not believe in that provision.

So my question is to those who believe in a post tribulation rapture. Keeping in mind that you could be placing yourself and your family at a great risk if your understanding of the rapture is incorrect, what makes you so sure that a pre-trib rapture provision does not exist?

Please show these clear scriptures that validate what you say about the Rapture before the tribulation.


JLB

 

[JLB]

There aren't any.

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31

"Immediately after the tribulation...He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect.

and again -

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

This scripture is crystal clear in that it shows us the Day of the Lord and the saints of God coming with Jesus Christ as well as the trumpet, the Last Trump, signaling the end of the age.

This truth is re-emphasized in Paul's second letter to these folks -

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4


If Jesus Christ returned before the antichrist was revealed and every eye see's Him, who in the world would follow the false christ after they had seen the real Christ! LOL what non-sense!!!


There aren't any scriptures for a pre-trib Rapture!





JLB

 

[Agape]

I'm not very knowledegable on end time prophecy, you'll have to parden me. You will have to help me understand.

Futurists disagree over the timing of the rapture.

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture#Timing

Variations
1) Pre-tribulation Rapture
This is the belief that the Rapture will occur sometime prior to the beginning of "Daniel's 70th Week," interpreted as the final seven years of this age. In this view, believers will be translated into immortal bodies in the Rapture before the great persecutions by the Antichrist and seven years of Tribulation. Central passages for this view include 1 Thessalonians 4-5, Revelation 3:10, and all the passages that describe the Tribulation, but lack the word ekklesia in them (e.g., Daniel 9; 12; The Olivet Discourse; and Rev. 4-18.)

According to this view, the Christian Church (that existed prior to this seven year period) has no vital role in Daniel's seventieth week and is therefore removed from the scene while God completes his program for Israel.

2) Mid-tribulation or Mid-Daniel's 70th Week
"Mid-tribulation Rapture" is what Pre-tribulationalists call the view that the Rapture occurs in the middle of Daniel's 70th week. Daniel's 70th week (Dan. 9) is popularly called "the Tribulation," even if Mat. 24 effectively calls only the second half of Daniel's 70th week the Tribulation and the first half "The Beginning of Sorrows." Since "Mid-tribulationists" may use the more strict definition of "Tribulation" (last half of Daniel's 70th week), from their point of view they may be Pre-tribulationists.

3) Post-tribulation
The other main view is termed the Post Tribulation Rapture. This view recognizes the concept of "rapture" from 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, but believes the rapture is part of the first resurrection as described in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 and takes place at the "second coming" of Christ.

"The post-trib view is the only rapture view which sees only a single future coming of Jesus. All other rapture views, pre-trib, mid-trib, and pre-wrath, see the rapture and resurrection prior to the second coming of Jesus by months or years. While these rapture views see the rapture as a means to take the Church to heaven to escape God's wrath, the post-trib view sees the rapture as a mechanism to gather together believers from both heaven and earth in a single location with Christ, to be revealed with Him in glory to the world at His coming." Warner
source: http://www.theopedia.com/Rapture

 

[John 8:32]

Futurists disagree over the timing of the rapture.

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture#Timing

Variations
1) Pre-tribulation Rapture
This is the belief that the Rapture will occur sometime prior to the beginning of "Daniel's 70th Week," interpreted as the final seven years of this age. In this view, believers will be translated into immortal bodies in the Rapture before the great persecutions by the Antichrist and seven years of Tribulation. Central passages for this view include 1 Thessalonians 4-5, Revelation 3:10, and all the passages that describe the Tribulation, but lack the word ekklesia in them (e.g., Daniel 9; 12; The Olivet Discourse; and Rev. 4-18.)

According to this view, the Christian Church (that existed prior to this seven year period) has no vital role in Daniel's seventieth week and is therefore removed from the scene while God completes his program for Israel.

2) Mid-tribulation or Mid-Daniel's 70th Week
"Mid-tribulation Rapture" is what Pre-tribulationalists call the view that the Rapture occurs in the middle of Daniel's 70th week. Daniel's 70th week (Dan. 9) is popularly called "the Tribulation," even if Mat. 24 effectively calls only the second half of Daniel's 70th week the Tribulation and the first half "The Beginning of Sorrows." Since "Mid-tribulationists" may use the more strict definition of "Tribulation" (last half of Daniel's 70th week), from their point of view they may be Pre-tribulationists.

3) Post-tribulation
The other main view is termed the Post Tribulation Rapture. This view recognizes the concept of "rapture" from 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, but believes the rapture is part of the first resurrection as described in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 and takes place at the "second coming" of Christ.

"The post-trib view is the only rapture view which sees only a single future coming of Jesus. All other rapture views, pre-trib, mid-trib, and pre-wrath, see the rapture and resurrection prior to the second coming of Jesus by months or years. While these rapture views see the rapture as a means to take the Church to heaven to escape God's wrath, the post-trib view sees the rapture as a mechanism to gather together believers from both heaven and earth in a single location with Christ, to be revealed with Him in glory to the world at His coming." Warner
source: http://www.theopedia.com/Rapture

The Bible teaches a resurrection at the return of Christ...

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

When?

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Secret is it?

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

I am having a very difficult time justifying these scriptures with a "secret rapture" before the GT. Hmmm, never thought to look for this, maybe it is a secret rupture.

 

[Agape]

The Bible teaches a resurrection at the return of Christ...

but why are you quoting my post? It gives a summary of the three different views on the timing of the rapture.

 

[reba]

Joh_6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Joh_6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh_6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh_6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.


How can there be a 1000 years after the last day? Should we consider the very words of Jesus in our theology?

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

How can there be a 1000 years after the last day? Should we consider the very words of Jesus in our theology?

Its the last day of the age, not the last day of history. Should we consider the context of the rest of the Bible in considering what Jesus meant? We can't determine doctrine from one verse.

 

[reba]

Its the last day of the age, not the last day of history. Should we consider the context of the rest of the Bible in considering what Jesus meant? We can't determine doctrine from one verse.

Jesus the creator of days does not state in these verses it is an end of an age He states clearly last day.

The idea of rapture comes from where?

 

[John 8:32]

but why are you quoting my post? It gives a summary of the three different views on the timing of the rapture.

Three choices, the Bible only supports one.

 

[Agape]

Three choices, the Bible only supports one.

do you mean the post-trib view?

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Jesus the creator of days does not state in these verses it is an end of an age He states clearly last day.

And again, in the context of the rest of the Bible it can be shown that He absolutely was not talking about the last day of history, but of the church age.

The idea of rapture comes from where?

I'm sure you know the answer to that question but, 1 Coritnhians 15:50-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 2 Thessalonians 2:2-10, among others. Those are the main verses. There is support throughout Scripture.

Further,It amazes me that some folks continue to deny the event, questioning the validity of the rapture, simply because the word "rapture" doesn't appear in the Bible

With 1 Thes 4:16-18 giving us such a clear description of the rapture, you would have to conclude that some people are just playing games with the Word of God. I could change the name of my site to "Catching Up Ready" to satisfy these folks, but I hardly think that would improve things

Their logic fails because there are a huge number of words that don't appear in the Bible, including the word "Bible." Because God's Word was originally written in Hebrew and Greek, one could truthfully say that no English words are in the Bible

Pre-trib opponents should have thought this one through because any pre-tribulationist has the same right to say, "Nowhere in the Bible does it directly say the Church will go through the tribulation." Jesus did say ...

Matthew 24 NASB

44 "For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.
​

The only time frame I can think of when we believers would not be expecting Jesus to return would have to be before the tribulation.

One of the most widely circulated attacks against the pre-trib rapture is the notion that a girl named Margaret MacDonald started this theological view back in 1830. The claim is typically made that MacDonald received a demonic vision, passed it on to John Darby, who in turn popularized it. Disproving this assertion proves rather easy. Pre-trib scholars have discovered a host of rapture writings that predate Margaret MacDonald.

Epharaem the Syrian said, in 373 AD, "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

One post-trib author offered a reward to anyone who could find a quote that predated MacDonald. He had to quickly cough up the money when someone identified a scholar who wrote about the pre-trib rapture several years before MacDonald. As of late, dozens of examples have been found, and the literary surface has hardly been scratched. With the revealing of all these pre-MacDonald writings, you would think that this argument has been debunked. Unfortunately, this is not the case. We seem to be involved in a tug-of-war with the truth. Apparently, due to their lack of research, pre-trib opponents continue to pump out publications that cite MacDonald as the originator of the pre-trib rapture.

A number people have attempted to refute the pre-trib rapture by trying to associate the "Day of the Lord" with a catching-up of believers at the end of the tribulation. They base their rapture views solely on the idea that the "Day of the Lord" and the rapture are either synonymous or somehow linked together. The Achilles heel of their argument has to be the notion that the "Day of the Lord" and various other "days" of an end-time context refers to a 24 hour period that occurs at or near the end of the tribulation. Probably the most commonly cited verse is 1 Thessalonians 5:2 where Paul tells us the "Day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night.

I've read countless articles that describe the "Day of the Lord" as Christ's advent at Armageddon. These articles go on to say that, because Paul also tells us the Lord will come "as a thief," we have a direct link to the same description that is applied to noted rapture verses. It's rather obvious that those trying to rely on the "Day of the Lord" never bothered to validate the meaning of this particular day. I've checked a number of commentaries on the "Day of the Lord" and many of them define this as being an all-encompassing period that begins with the Great Tribulation. Let's examine some verses that clearly indicate that the term "day" is used to represent a broader time period.

In 2 Peter 3:10-13, the "Day of the Lord" spoken of cannot be a one day event because it mentions the destruction of the earth by fire and its renovation. Rev 21:11 tells us the earth will not be renewed until after Christ's 1000 year reign.

In Joel 2:11-20, the "Day of the Lord" includes the defeat of the northern army. Ezkiel 38 and 39 are more detailed parallels of the Joel passage. Most scholars would time the destruction of the Gog army as occurring before in the first half of the tribulation.

In John 12:48, Jesus uses the term "last day" to indicate when the lost would be judged. Rev 20 makes it clear that the unsaved will not be judged until after the millennium -- yet another 1000 year gap.

One of the best indications that most of the various "day" references are citing a general time period can be found here:

Hebrews 10NASB
25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.
​

There are myriad arguments against misunderstanding and denial of the prophesied Rapture, too numerous to go into detail here. But if one wants to understand how the Rapture will occur before the Tribulation, it is not hard to locate information on it. Rather than stamping feet and saying "It can't be," perhaps some should investigate beyond what their church is teaching them.

 

[Guest]

Regardless of when the rapture and tribulation will happen, the truth is, is that one day it will happen.
Is it safe to say we will not see this in our generation, the destruction that will come.

 

[Agape]

There are myriad arguments against misunderstanding and denial of the prophesied Rapture, too numerous to go into detail here. But if one wants to understand how the Rapture will occur before the Tribulation, it is not hard to locate information on it. Rather than stamping feet and saying "It can't be," perhaps some should investigate beyond what their church is teaching them.

Agreed! ;)
Have you read "The Rapture Question" by Dr. John Walvoord?

 

[gr8grace]

And again, in the context of the rest of the Bible it can be shown that He absolutely was not talking about the last day of history, but of the church age.

I'm sure you know the answer to that question but, 1 Coritnhians 15:50-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 2 Thessalonians 2:2-10, among others. Those are the main verses. There is support throughout Scripture.

Further,It amazes me that some folks continue to deny the event, questioning the validity of the rapture, simply because the word "rapture" doesn't appear in the Bible

With 1 Thes 4:16-18 giving us such a clear description of the rapture, you would have to conclude that some people are just playing games with the Word of God. I could change the name of my site to "Catching Up Ready" to satisfy these folks, but I hardly think that would improve things

Their logic fails because there are a huge number of words that don't appear in the Bible, including the word "Bible." Because God's Word was originally written in Hebrew and Greek, one could truthfully say that no English words are in the Bible

Pre-trib opponents should have thought this one through because any pre-tribulationist has the same right to say, "Nowhere in the Bible does it directly say the Church will go through the tribulation." Jesus did say ...

Matthew 24 NASB

44 "For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.
​

The only time frame I can think of when we believers would not be expecting Jesus to return would have to be before the tribulation.

One of the most widely circulated attacks against the pre-trib rapture is the notion that a girl named Margaret MacDonald started this theological view back in 1830. The claim is typically made that MacDonald received a demonic vision, passed it on to John Darby, who in turn popularized it. Disproving this assertion proves rather easy. Pre-trib scholars have discovered a host of rapture writings that predate Margaret MacDonald.

Epharaem the Syrian said, in 373 AD, "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

One post-trib author offered a reward to anyone who could find a quote that predated MacDonald. He had to quickly cough up the money when someone identified a scholar who wrote about the pre-trib rapture several years before MacDonald. As of late, dozens of examples have been found, and the literary surface has hardly been scratched. With the revealing of all these pre-MacDonald writings, you would think that this argument has been debunked. Unfortunately, this is not the case. We seem to be involved in a tug-of-war with the truth. Apparently, due to their lack of research, pre-trib opponents continue to pump out publications that cite MacDonald as the originator of the pre-trib rapture.

A number people have attempted to refute the pre-trib rapture by trying to associate the "Day of the Lord" with a catching-up of believers at the end of the tribulation. They base their rapture views solely on the idea that the "Day of the Lord" and the rapture are either synonymous or somehow linked together. The Achilles heel of their argument has to be the notion that the "Day of the Lord" and various other "days" of an end-time context refers to a 24 hour period that occurs at or near the end of the tribulation. Probably the most commonly cited verse is 1 Thessalonians 5:2 where Paul tells us the "Day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night.

I've read countless articles that describe the "Day of the Lord" as Christ's advent at Armageddon. These articles go on to say that, because Paul also tells us the Lord will come "as a thief," we have a direct link to the same description that is applied to noted rapture verses. It's rather obvious that those trying to rely on the "Day of the Lord" never bothered to validate the meaning of this particular day. I've checked a number of commentaries on the "Day of the Lord" and many of them define this as being an all-encompassing period that begins with the Great Tribulation. Let's examine some verses that clearly indicate that the term "day" is used to represent a broader time period.

In 2 Peter 3:10-13, the "Day of the Lord" spoken of cannot be a one day event because it mentions the destruction of the earth by fire and its renovation. Rev 21:11 tells us the earth will not be renewed until after Christ's 1000 year reign.

In Joel 2:11-20, the "Day of the Lord" includes the defeat of the northern army. Ezkiel 38 and 39 are more detailed parallels of the Joel passage. Most scholars would time the destruction of the Gog army as occurring before in the first half of the tribulation.

In John 12:48, Jesus uses the term "last day" to indicate when the lost would be judged. Rev 20 makes it clear that the unsaved will not be judged until after the millennium -- yet another 1000 year gap.

One of the best indications that most of the various "day" references are citing a general time period can be found here:

Hebrews 10NASB
25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.
​

There are myriad arguments against misunderstanding and denial of the prophesied Rapture, too numerous to go into detail here. But if one wants to understand how the Rapture will occur before the Tribulation, it is not hard to locate information on it. Rather than stamping feet and saying "It can't be," perhaps some should investigate beyond what their church is teaching them.

Great post! There is comfort and encouragement to the Church from these verses, and we are supposed to offer comfort and encouragement to other believers through these verses. What comfort or what encouragement can I offer other believers If I am telling them that they will have to go through the WORST period of time EVER.

 

[farouk]

Great post! There is comfort and encouragement to the Church from these verses, and we are supposed to offer comfort and encouragement to other believers through these verses. What comfort or what encouragement can I offer other believers If I am telling them that they will have to go through the WORST period of time EVER.

Well, exactly.

 

[Guest]

Rev 20 makes it clear that the unsaved will not be judged until after the millennium -- yet another 1000 year gap.

Not being judged meaning the unsaved will be in hell during the waiting process or not?

 

[gr8grace]

Not being judged meaning the unsaved will be in hell during the waiting process or not?

Going to Hades is the first death, Unbelief in the Lord Jesus Christ. and in Rev 20:13 the Great White throne Judgement is the Unbelievers opportunity to weigh their human righteous deeds against the supreme Righteous Deed of Christ on the Cross( notice that it is deeds and NOT sins) Christ paid for everybody's Sins. The first death is unbelief, and the second death is Human good compared to Christ's GOOD deed on the Cross. And In Rev 20:14 is this second death....and notice that even Hades is cast into the lake of fire.

It is Gods way of showing men that We will have NO excuse. after He Justly judges a man for unbelief John 16:9 , He still lets men try to weigh their Human good deeds against Christs Supreme deed on the Cross...man will have no excuse! Rev 20:13. With Belief in the Lord Jesus Christ a man will not see this Judgement, and ONLY with unbelief will a man see this judgement.

 

[Guest]

Going to Hades is the first death, Unbelief in the Lord Jesus Christ. and in Rev 20:13 the Great White throne Judgement is the Unbelievers opportunity to weigh their human righteous deeds against the supreme Righteous Deed of Christ on the Cross( notice that it is deeds and NOT sins) Christ paid for everybody's Sins. The first death is unbelief, and the second death is Human good compared to Christ's GOOD deed on the Cross. And In Rev 20:14 is this second death....and notice that even Hades is cast into the lake of fire.

It is Gods way of showing us that We will have NO excuse. after He Justly judges us for unbelief John 16:9 , He still lets us try to weigh our Human good deeds against Christs Supreme deed on the Cross....We will have no excuse! Rev 20:13. With Belief in the Lord Jesus Christ we will not see this Judgement, and ONLY with unbelief will we see this judgement.

Why does He let them try when good deeds won't get them into Heaven.

 

[gr8grace]

Why does He let them try when good deeds won't get them into Heaven.

That is the point Urk, No human Deed can even come close to Christs deed. God will show every man that at the second death. He is showing man that they could have NEVER done it with out His SON. And Mans deeds are like dung to God. So God Is showing Man that no matter what man comes up with for "but" God has all excuses covered. we will have no excuse. No matter if I plead that I fed the poor for 40 years and lived without all my life, it is dung without Christ. And it was ME who tried to make myself righteous.