Reasons to believe hellfire is real.

[Free]

Well Peter did tell Jesus that he believed he was the Messiah. You must also understand that Israel was under the theological teachings of the Pharisees. They are the ones who held the keys to scriptural knowledge. So what the masses believed at that time was not only influenced by scripture..but also by the Talmud. If you look at the history of the Jewish people since Jesus time. Its theology is Talmudist, not scriptural.

Please see Drew's latest post. This is about understanding the Messianic vocation--what the Messiah was going to accomplish--not whether or not Jesus was the Messiah.

Indeed this was the underlying belief. But they did not realise that this is the SECOND coming, when he does so.

Correct, and that further underscores my point.

If "progressive revelation" were indeed accurate, then where do we stop? modern day christian prophets such as Joseph Smith..should be listened to and followed. You refer to a post-resurrection understanding, but we see Isaiah littered throughout the Gospels, and Jesus quotes it when he says "Their worm does not die, the fire is not quenched"..If you look at Isaiah 66 where it was received from..it PROVES that the wicked are dead.

Isaiah 66:24 “And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

Of course we don't listen to Joseph Smith, just like we wouldn't listen to Muhammad or any other so called prophet whose teachings directly contradict Scripture. As for the NT quoting the Old, look at when the NT was likely written--post-resurrection. The writers are looking back at the OT and seeing what they hadn't seen before.

Thats a hard verse to argue against.

Well, then you need to explain how it is the bodies are supposed to be destroyed in the lake of fire but yet seem to be still laying there for all to see.

What I mean about the trinity, and of course about the nature of God, is that arguing the position of Jesus, whether he is less or AS important as God, is fruitless. If his nature is deity, or not..does not affect the fact that he is key to our salvation.

I understand what you have been saying, but I strongly disagree and believe it to be central to salvation. That is, if one claims to follow Jesus and be a Christian but they don't believe he is God, then they aren't saved. Anyway, let's not go down this tangent. There are other topics on the Trinity already. It is only an analogy to show progressive revelation.

You keep arguing FOR progressive revelation, but that means arguing that the bible could be outdated. Because the things you are arguing for IS NOT in the BIBLE!! The only evidence of immortality is FOR the righteous through Jesus Christ!

Firstly, no, it does not mean that the Bible is outdated. It remains to be seen whether or not revelation continued after the books of the NT were written. Suffice it to say that the Bible is the standard by which all is measured against. Even if one argued that God continues to provide certain revelation to those who love him, it does not mean the Bible is outdated.

Secondly, let's not get ahead of ourselves. You think that what I have been arguing is not in Scripture but I'm saying it just might be. That remains to be seen.

The Greeks were Pagans, God would not support revelation through Pagans. The concept of immortal soul was pre-christian, it does not require God for immortality.

How do you know "God would not support revelation through Pagans"? And how would the concept of an immortal soul not require God for immortality if God is the one who would be the giver of the soul?

Just to clarify, I do believe the nature of God to be extremely important, but when it comes to the trinity, its like the disciples arguing who is greater in Heaven! We know that Jesus sees the Father as being more important.

Again, I would strongly disagree but that is not the topic.

It does...yes the Holy Spirit guides us to truth, but the truth is in scripture..thats why it was written down and inspired. All doctrine MUST be brought from the Bible..nowhere else.

No one is saying there isn't truth in Scripture but rather that there is truth that isn't in Scripture. I will say, lest I be accused of something, that I believe all that pertains to salvation is in Scripture.

The problems we have today in the church are a war between man-made doctrines and scripture. Just as they were in Jesus' day. Jesus argued from scripture!! He fulfilled IT!

Well, that's the difficulty isn't it? Just what is man-made and what is Scripture? I have yet to meet one person or see one user on this forum who doesn't think that what they believe isn't what Scripture teaches. Everyone thinks their beliefs are based on Scripture yet there is a huge amount of disagreement and contradiction.

"Few blows" and "many blows"; quantity, not quality. And, again, from your position, this presents a fairly significant problem. When does this happen?

What I am saying is that the quality of punishment is more important than the length of time [quantity].
From my position it explains itself. A man about to be hanged would slice off his arm if it would give him more life. Yet from your position life in prison would be the greater punishment. Capital punishment is always seen as greater than a custodial sentence. Why would God waste his time torturing people for eternity? Its just ridiculous.

But this doesn't answer the question of "when does this punishment happen"? When?

But this isn't about having a gun to one's head and physical death in this life. If one does not exist, there is no thought, there is nothing. It isn't the severe punishment that Jesus warns about, it's simply nothingness.

Yes it is! It is about the extinction of life!! and it is the severe punishment that Jesus talked about! Ashes underfoot as Isaiah 66:24 puts it, and that Jesus quoted. Did God change his mind from Isaiah to Matthew? Or was Isaiah not a true prophet?

But extinction is nothingness.

Yes outer darkness..Not hell. Anger and Sadness..not pain. Outer darkness refers to extinction of life.

Again, how can there be "weeping and gnashing of teeth" if life is extinct? If one doesn't exist, they can't very well weep or gnash their teeth, can they?

Mat 8:12 "while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (ESV)

"In that place," that is, in the "outer darkness," "there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

And, yes, it could very well be a further description of hell. Just because fire isn't mentioned doesn't mean that this isn't hell.

This would be the Lake of fire, there is anger and sadness again.

And, again, if this is the place of annihilation, how can there be weeping and gnashing of teeth?

It says in that place..It doesnt say AFTER.

In context!

<sup class="versenum">40 </sup>Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. <sup class="versenum">41 </sup> The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, <sup class="versenum">42 </sup> and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. <sup class="versenum">43 </sup>Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

How interesting that Jesus says the bold text. Just as the weeds are gathered. They shrivel up..and turn to dust. it doesnt support ECT. It supports conditionalism.

The context doesn't change anything. My point remains and you must explain how there can be weeping and gnashing of teeth after being burned up.

I don't dispute either mental or physical torment. I dispute its length.

My point is that it is plausible that the physical torment, the punishment, the "few blows" and "many blows," is temporary while the mental anguish is what lasts for eternity. I am trying to show how the common belief that people are physically tormented for eternity doesn't appear to be biblically sound, and as such, should be discarded as an argument against hell being eternal.

 

[stovebolts]

Every discussion about hell must begin by clearing up what is meant by “hell.†Unfortunately many translators chose to translate three different words as "hell": hades, gehenna and tartaroo. Tartaroo is used once, in 2 Pet 2:4, and for all intents and purposes is not relevant to the discussion.

Duane,
To start with, we might want to look at where the word Hell came from. It's from Norse mythology and this shouldn't surprise us considering the translators from Germany tried to use a word that was similar in meaning to it's Greek counterpart.

When we look at Hades and Tartaroo, they also come from Greek Mythology and these words were used for much the same reason the word Hell was used. You see, there were many Hellenistic Jews that didn't read Hebrew, but they did read Greek. Thus the Septuigent... a Bible written in a language the people could understand with concepts they already understood by way of culture.

But more to my point, Hades was the brother of Zeus and was ruler of the underworld, which by right was also refereed to as Hades. All souls went to Hades when they died. However, there was a special place in Hades reserved just for the wicked, and that place was called Tartaroo.

When we look at Sheol, it was also considered in Scriptures as Abraham's Bosom. And we see that there were two places in Abraham's Bosom. One place for rest and the other a place of misery. We see this clearly in the parable of Lazurus and the beggar.

In the case of Sheol, we see that it is similar in concept of Hades and Tartaroo. All people go there, yet there is a place reserved for the wicked in both.

Gehenna has a long history within Jewish writings, including the Bible and all souls go through Gehenna, although never for more than 12 months. There is much written about it and is similar to Abraham's Bosom. However, I am still studying this so my view is not yet complete from a Jewish perspective. However, in ALL Jewish thought, it is believed that when a righteous Rabbi dies, on his way through Gehenna he is able to take souls with him to paradise.

Hades is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew sheol, commonly translated as "grave." Gehenna, on the other hand, is the one most often used in reference to punishment, torment, etc. It is the place that Jesus warned about and is the final destination of the unbelieving. For that reason, I equate gehenna, which I believe to be the proper Hell, with the lake of fire of Revelation.

That is close Duane, but off just a bit from traditional Orthodox Jewish thought which Jesus would have been familiar with. Gehenna is a place for purification of the soul, which by nature would be painful. Jesus would not have taught that Gehenna was a place for solely for unbelievers since it was accepted that all souls passed through Gehenna after death.

 

[Webb]

Hi Stovebolts

Your post was interesting. First time I've seen that info. on the various words you cited. What documentation do you have for their sources?

I definitely believe the punishment of the wicked will be as enduring as the joys of the righteous and have offered to debate the issue with any annihilationist on the one-on-one forum where the matter can be discussed without interruption.

God bless

 

[Free]

That is close Duane, but off just a bit from traditional Orthodox Jewish thought which Jesus would have been familiar with. Gehenna is a place for purification of the soul, which by nature would be painful. Jesus would not have taught that Gehenna was a place for solely for unbelievers since it was accepted that all souls passed through Gehenna after death.

And yet, every instance of gehenna in the NT, it is used only of punishment. So, yes, it seems that Jesus did teach that gehenna was a place for unbelievers only.

 

[thethinkingrebel]

And yet, every instance of gehenna in the NT, it is used only of punishment. So, yes, it seems that Jesus did teach that gehenna was a place for unbelievers only.

Of this we are both in agreement. Jesus warned of Gehenna as a place we dont want to go. So much so that dismemberment was seen as preferable.

 

[stovebolts]

And yet, every instance of gehenna in the NT, it is used only of punishment. So, yes, it seems that Jesus did teach that gehenna was a place for unbelievers only.

A quick search confirms the ministry on Jesus which is a ministry of repentance.

Jesus was speaking of a way of life. "The Way" and that Way was through Him. Jesus rightly taught Torah because Jesus was the Author of Torah. Jesus was the "Way". You either believe him and obey Him, or you don't because even the demons believe, yet they have a special place in Hades, and that place is Tartaroo. Again, the ministry of Jesus was a ministry of repentance... even for believers (Matthew 5-7)

 

[stovebolts]

Hi Stovebolts

Your post was interesting. First time I've seen that info. on the various words you cited. What documentation do you have for their sources?

I definitely believe the punishment of the wicked will be as enduring as the joys of the righteous and have offered to debate the issue with any annihilationist on the one-on-one forum where the matter can be discussed without interruption.

God bless

My debate is not in regard to annihilation etc. My interest is researching the topic Hell from a historical perspective.

As far as where I got my "documentation", we had to read Homer's Odyssey in the 9th grade and we had to give a full chapter by chapter report each week on it. That was my first academic taste of the Pantheon in Greek culture. I have studed the pantheon in other books as well, but ironically my son found the pantheon within the recent series of Percy Jackson and has read all of the books. This has helped me to sharpen up on the greek pantheon in recent years.

Growing up I loved Marvel comics. Thor was my favorite hero. Later I found out that Thor was from Norse Mythology and I've always enjoyed the Vikings. Thus, Hel who was also a character from said mythology was found to closely resembled Hades from the Greek.

Years ago I studied the modern history of the Bible... and found it's German roots aka 1611 etc. Thus, the word Hell. From there we can trace how the church's doctrines and theology on the biblical Hell was interpreted with what the culture understood from Norse Mythology.

Prior, we had Dante's inferno which was a mix of Greek Mythology written in the form of the Church's doctrines...

As far as Gehenna, it's sources lie within the Jewish writings that predate Jesus. Just as you would go to the greeks to understand their culture, you would also go to the Jews to understand theirs. Jesus was a Jew, and he would have understood Gehenna as a Jew.