Reasons why you are very unwise to trust your church’s doctrines

[DRS81]

Yes, of course, you are correct.
Those falling away are falling away from the faith, the church, and etc.

Correct. But why are they falling away? Because they were never born again to begin with. Being "religious" vs being with grace is not the same.

 

[Chopper]

Oh my, this is a very "thorny" subject. So many opinions always comes forth from such a difficult subject to accurately defend or reject either an organized denominational church, or a house church or just stay home. I have heard people relate their opinions on all three. Even I have been involved in all three. So, as someone who has had experience in all three, I'd like to express what I have observed.

I have been the senior pastor of three Independent Fundamental Baptist Churches. Two in the State of Maine, and one in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.
I started three House Churches, one in Maine and two in Massachusetts. Presently I have not been in my local Baptist Church, other than a couple of times, for about two years.

The two Baptist Churches that I was the pastor was for the most part a joy, other than a few members who gave me a hard time either because of my rigid stand as a Biblicist, which means I would not deviate from what the Scriptures plainly taught, and my conduct and practices were strictly Biblical. (example: I would not marry the head Deacon's daughter to an unsaved man)....The Baptist Church in Massachusetts was a different situation. It was a nightmare from the word go. The Elders, five of them, were all liberal, and ran the church as well as the previous pastors. They would instruct each pastor what to preach, nothing that would convict of sin. When I was told not to preach anymore out of 1 Corinthians Chapter 1, I had only been there about three weeks, I asked why? The head elder informed me that the "people didn't like it." I percieved that some were being convicted of sin in their lives, so I told him to "hang on" because they hadn't heard anything yet! Needless to say, eventually the liberals left and new people were coming in and getting saved, and the church doubled in size and holiness.

The three house churches that I started were a thing of beauty. I loved them all. After several years they all closed for one reason or another, like I moved, got really sick, or merged with another church.... In a week, I plan to return to regular services at my Baptist Church here in Town because I miss the fellowship and the teaching of the pastor. I just have to get by the dress habits of the women on the worship team and young women who are members.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, there are faults in whatever setting you have church. Mainly because of faulty members, the devil, and ill-equipped preachers. I liked what Mr Zain had to say, much of it is the truth. I also liked what all the others posted. Boy, are we about to enter the first half of the tribulation? Or perhaps we have actually stepped into the very mild few days of it. All I can say is, get ready to suffer for Christ's sake. We will endure the tribulation, the tip-toe through the tulips is over! Praise YHWH and Yeshua, Our God and Jesus the Christ along with the blessed Holy Spirit will accompany us thru all the trouble, and will keep us in the palm of His hand.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

amen Chopper. so many different churches, so many errors in some, but ONE GOD and ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST / ONE SAVIOR!

re post 80: some people have faith, and they don't have union with Yhwh in any way. (the demons even, believe, and shudder awaiting fearful punishment). i.e. having faith does in no way itself provide holiness or life. (faith meaning belief that He is true or real)-- and faith can be reliance on someone other than Yeshua - or a mental assent without life behind it (in colloquial usage).
the "Holy Spirit" is not a person, and no where in Scripture is it written or said. .....

no where does it say or is it written that the character of anyone is the opposite of the word abandonment. Jesus promised to never abandon His disciples, but there are others, like judas the betrayer, that He did let go. He never forced anyone to stay with Him.
a believer can abandon his faith the same way he chose to believe--- his choice, Yhwh willing.

most of the description does not look Scripturally sound --- it looks like 3 different churches doctrines pieced together, btw. perhaps it's just not worded right......

 

[John Zain]

Correct. But why are they falling away? Because they were never born again to begin with.
Being "religious" vs being with grace is not the same.

I'll give it one final try ...

God's initial free gift of grace (God's unmerited favor) is never guaranteed to last forever.
This has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit indwelling us "forever" until we die.
Just thought of this ... God is omnipresent.

There are multitudes of verses warning of the very real possibility of:
falling away from the faith, falling from grace, not entering the kingdom of God, losing eternal life, etc.
Dey all refer to the same thing ... losing it.

IMO, Romans 6 is the most hidden example of dis very real threat.
How would YOU like to explain Romans 6 to/for us?

 

[jeff77]

Hundreds, if not sincerely repented of (run away from, forsaken, etc.).
But, apparently not the ONE you mentioned.

Well of course there has to be repentance. I thought that was just a given but it seemed like His Nee was saying that there are some sins that are not forgiven.

 

[John Zain]

Boy, are we about to enter the first half of the tribulation?
Or perhaps we have actually stepped into the very mild few days of it.
All I can say is, get ready to suffer for Christ's sake.
We will endure the tribulation, the tip-toe through the tulips is over!
Praise YHWH and Yeshua, Our God and Jesus the Christ along with the blessed Holy Spirit
will accompany us thru all the trouble, and will keep us in the palm of His hand.

Now here's a guy who has an idea of what's goin' on!
Yeshua will protect those who are really close to Him ... throughout every horrendous moment of it.
By this I mean those who are not involved in habitual unrepented-of sin.
But, just exactly what sins are these ... and how holy must we be?

Here's an example ... Jesus said if we have any unforgiveness, Father God will not forgive us.
IMO, unforgiveness, bitterness, etc. are sins.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

Well of course there has to be repentance. I thought that was just a given but it seemed like His Nee was saying that there are some sins that are not forgiven.

it's an important distinction because

, as Paul wrote often, and Peter, and John, by Revelation from God in Yeshua,

it's important to repent, and 'natural' for the new man, the new creation, to live a holy life, to purify himself, to go without sinning instead of with sinning,

but,

it is not taught around the world in sixty days,
nor in sixty places on earth, (that I know of that can be named or identified),
nor ..... ..... ..... so forth and so on ----- turning to Yhwh to live His Way in Christ Jesus according to Scripture and His Spirit
is simply not done on earth enough to show people in most places it can be done and ought to be done according to God.

 

[DRS81]

I'll give it one final try ...

God's initial free gift of grace (God's unmerited favor) is never guaranteed to last forever.
This has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit indwelling us "forever" until we die.
Just thought of this ... God is omnipresent.

Hey John. Edited I disagree. Once you have come to salvation in Christ, grace is part of the package deal. His grace (is) forever, that's why it's called a gift. He is guaranteeing our inheritance until redemption. This means forever. Redemption is when we die and finally meet Jesus. Also, God's grace that is in us until redemption has (everything) to do with the Holy Spirit. Notice the words in bold..(Eph 1:13-14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.)

There are multitudes of verses warning of the very real possibility of:
falling away from the faith, falling from grace, not entering the kingdom of God, losing eternal life, etc.
They all refer to the same thing ... losing it.

Correct, but again falling away is referring (only) to apostates and not born again believers. You cannot associate apostasy with born again believers. It's not scriptural. All you're gonna be doing is taking scripture out of context, and you wanna be careful not to do that.

IMO, Romans 6 is the most hidden example of dis very real threat.
How would YOU like to explain Romans 6 to/for us?

Romans 6 has nothing to do with falling away or apostasy. Romans 6 is a completely different subject altogether John.

 

[John Zain]

Romans 6 has nothing to do with falling away or apostasy.
Romans 6 is a completely different subject altogether John.

As is falling away a completely different subject altogether John from da OP.
Jesus don't like no excuses! ... Butski, I think they're great, so no offense taken.

Praise Report:
Since da Chopper is a Baptist, I'm assuming he sides with you on OSAS.
Of course, he could set the record straight, if he would care to bless us.

 

[agua.]

Forgiveness is usually preceded by repentance in good practice. Otherwise what lesson are we teaching ?

 

[DRS81]

As is falling away a completely different subject altogether John from da OP.
Jesus don't like no excuses! ... Butski, I think they're great, so no offense taken.

Praise Report:
Since da Chopper is a Baptist, I'm assuming he sides with you on OSAS.
Of course, he could set the record straight, if he would care to bless us.

No worries. We should move on. Blessings.

 

[jeff77]

I thought Matthew 7:21-23 was scripture that supports that some will have lost their salvation. They may even still think they have it until God says depart from me I never knew you.

 

[jeff77]

it's an important distinction because

, as Paul wrote often, and Peter, and John, by Revelation from God in Yeshua,

it's important to repent, and 'natural' for the new man, the new creation, to live a holy life, to purify himself, to go without sinning instead of with sinning,

but,

it is not taught around the world in sixty days,
nor in sixty places on earth, (that I know of that can be named or identified),
nor ..... ..... ..... so forth and so on ----- turning to Yhwh to live His Way in Christ Jesus according to Scripture and His Spirit
is simply not done on earth enough to show people in most places it can be done and ought to be done according to God.

Ok, I agree it is important to make the distinction otherwise some might just assume they don't need to repent.

 

[John Zain]

Forgiveness is usually preceded by repentance in good practice.

Here's a lesson which VERY FEW people on Christian forums are willing to embrace:

"But IF we (continue to) walk in the light as He is in the light,
we (continue to) have fellowship with one another, and
the blood of Jesus Christ His Son (continues to) cleanses us from all sin.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
IF we (continue to) confess (repent of) our sins, He is faithful and just to
(continue to) forgive us our sins and to (continue to) cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin.
And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate (via the above) with the Father,
Jesus Christ the righteous." (1 John 1:7-2:1)
Derek Prince explained that the Greek verbs here are all continuous verbs.

Proverbs 28:13 “He who covers his sins will not prosper,
but whoever confesses and forsakes the mwill have mercy.

As I said elsewhere, some things just never change.
And IMO we can put God in that category.

 

[DRS81]

I thought Matthew 7:21-23 was scripture that supports that some will have lost their salvation. They may even still think they have it until God says depart from me I never knew you.

These people in Matt 7 never had a relationship with Jesus, they were apostates. Once you are born again, you cannot lose your salvation.

 

[Gary]

I thought Matthew 7:21-23 was scripture that supports that some will have lost their salvation. They may even still think they have it until God says depart from me I never knew you.

The point that I always try to make is, it's not that they were saved and lost their salvation, but that they thought they were saved and were not.

"I never knew you" indicates the Holy Spirit was never a part of the lives of these individuals. By their actions it is obvious that they believed in God, but their belief was not enough. They believed in their heart that they were worthy enough to enter the Kingdom of Heaven..........................but they were wrong.

How many today hold this same belief?
.

 

[John Zain]

The point that I always try to make is, it's not that they were saved and lost their salvation,
but that they thought they were saved and were not.
"I never knew you" indicates the Holy Spirit was never a part of the lives of these individuals.
By their actions it is obvious that they believed in God, but their belief was not enough.
They believed in their heart that they were worthy enough to enter the Kingdom of Heaven
..........................but they were wrong. How many today hold this same belief?

Matthew 7:
21 Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord’, shall enter the kingdom of heaven,
but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name,
cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’
23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’”

This, of course, would mean: lawlessness = not doing God's will.

Somewhere (God knows where), I read an evangelists interpretation of "knew".
He said it meant "approved of", which makes a ton of sense to me!

Some Greek words have about 40 different possible meanings, depending on the context.
The original manuscripts were inspired and accurate, but the translations into English ...?

 

[Gary]

This, of course, would mean: lawlessness = not doing God's will.

Somewhere (God knows where), I read an evangelists interpretation of "knew".
He said it meant "approved of", which makes a ton of sense to me!

Sounds good to me.
.

 

[Gary]

Some Greek words have about 40 different possible meanings, depending on the context.
The original manuscripts were inspired and accurate, but the translations into English ...?

John 10
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
.

 

[John Zain]

John 10
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

John 10
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish;
neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

This is true relationship ... nothing more, nothing less ... and the end result of it.