Receiving the Spirit: an Experience of Divine Power or Simply a Matter of Faith?

[Berserk]

The appended questions to Pauline texts (1)-(5) are intended to illustrate the reason for each quotation.
(1) "He (Paul) said to them, "Did you (Ephesian disciples) receive the Holy Spirit when you became believers (Acts 19:2)?"
Paul, how can you ask that question? I thought believers automatically receive the Spirit after repenting and professing faith in the Gospel?

(2) "Are you so foolish? Having started with the Spirit, are you now ending with the flesh? Did you experience so much for nothing--if it really was for nothing? Well then, does God supply you with the Spirit and work miracles among you by your doing the works of the Law or by believing what you heard (Galatians 3:3-5)?"
Paul, how can you ask that question? Isn't my initial reception of the Spirit simply a matter of faith? Why do I need to "experience so much," including "miracles?"

(3) "My (initial) speech and my proclamation were not with plausible words of wisdom, but with a demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom but on God's power (1 Corinthians 2:4-5)."
But Paul, when I got saved, the sermon I heard made excellent sense and I responded to the pastor's "plausible words." I felt convicted of my sins, but I never experienced "a demonstration of the Spirit and of power." What do you mean by that?

(4) "Pray in the Spirit at all times and in every prayer and supplication. to that end stay alert and always persevere in supplication for all the saints (Ephesians 6:18)."
Paul, I pour out my heart to God in my prayers, but I'm not aware of praying in the Spirit "in every prayer." That sounds like my prayers must be Spirit-directed. How can I experience that? And why so much stress and staying highly awake?

(5) "If we walk in the Spirit, let us also be led by the Spirit (Galatians 5:25)."
Paul, I try to obey biblical principles. But you seem to be equating walking in the Spirit with being led by the Spirit and that sounds too mystical to me! How can I know whether I'm actually being led by the Spirit?

 

[JLB]

) "He (Paul) said to them, "Did you (Ephesian disciples) receive the Holy Spirit when you became believers (Acts 19:2)?"
Paul, how can you ask that question? I thought believers automatically receive the Spirit after repenting and professing faith in the Gospel?

The term “receiving” the Holy Spirit, was used to refer to the baptism in (with) the Holy Spirit, with Jesus as the baptizer.


There are some denominations that believe if you don’t have the baptism in the Holy Spirit, with the evidence of speaking in tongues, then you are not saved; not having the Holy Spirit.


JLB

 

[JLB]

5) "If we walk in the Spirit, let us also be led by the Spirit (Galatians 5:25)."
Paul, I try to obey biblical principles. But you seem to be equating walking in the Spirit with being led by the Spirit and that sounds too mystical to me! How can I know whether I'm actually being led by the Spirit?

If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Galatians 5:25


If we are in the Spirit, which is a reference to being “in Christ” in which Christ is in you, then our lifestyle (walk) should reflect that Christ is on you.

IOW, your lifestyle should be “Christlike”.

Not a lifestyle of practicing the works of the flesh, but a lifestyle of being led by the Righteous One, Who dwells within us.


JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

The appended questions to Pauline texts (1)-(5) are intended to illustrate the reason for each quotation.
(1) "He (Paul) said to them, "Did you (Ephesian disciples) receive the Holy Spirit when you became believers (Acts 19:2)?"
Paul, how can you ask that question? I thought believers automatically receive the Spirit after repenting and professing faith in the Gospel?

(2) "Are you so foolish? Having started with the Spirit, are you now ending with the flesh? Did you experience so much for nothing--if it really was for nothing? Well then, does God supply you with the Spirit and work miracles among you by your doing the works of the Law or by believing what you heard (Galatians 3:3-5)?"
Paul, how can you ask that question? Isn't my initial reception of the Spirit simply a matter of faith? Why do I need to "experience so much," including "miracles?"

(3) "My (initial) speech and my proclamation were not with plausible words of wisdom, but with a demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom but on God's power (1 Corinthians 2:4-5)."
But Paul, when I got saved, the sermon I heard made excellent sense and I responded to the pastor's "plausible words." I felt convicted of my sins, but I never experienced "a demonstration of the Spirit and of power." What do you mean by that?

(4) "Pray in the Spirit at all times and in every prayer and supplication. to that end stay alert and always persevere in supplication for all the saints (Ephesians 6:18)."
Paul, I pour out my heart to God in my prayers, but I'm not aware of praying in the Spirit "in every prayer." That sounds like my prayers must be Spirit-directed. How can I experience that? And why so much stress and staying highly awake?

(5) "If we walk in the Spirit, let us also be led by the Spirit (Galatians 5:25)."
Paul, I try to obey biblical principles. But you seem to be equating walking in the Spirit with being led by the Spirit and that sounds too mystical to me! How can I know whether I'm actually being led by the Spirit?

I really like your perspective on this as faith without works is dead so the same without being baptized and indwelled with Holy Spirit the works we do only become carnal without the leading of the Holy Spirit that works in us and through us as there is nothing of our self that can prosper without faith which is Christ Jesus and the indwelling Holy Spirit that is God's spirit within us.

These are questions that many ask and I have heard many times as the teaching of the Holy Spirit is not being taught in many churches today as many do not even think the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for today. I really like your perspective on this through your illustrations.

 

[Berserk]

Let me express my OP's point in different words. Based on the evidence from Paul and the Book of Acts, it is an understandable, bur false and dangerous doctrine that one must speak in tongues to be a Christian. Prior to the question of the relationship between tongues and Spirit baptism is the question of the evidence for the expectation of an initial experiential encounter with the Holy Spirit, an experience of divine power and not just a fact accepted by faith, apart from any experience. But the exact nature of this experience might vary from believer to believer.

Also, for Paul, walking and being led by the Spirit is more than faithful discipleship; it involves a living mystical or intimate connection with the Spirit that results in a guided life and must be experienced and not just embraced by faith.

So how did the church lose sight of this Christian mysticism? when early church leaders laid hands on new converts or the newly baptized to receive the Holy Spirit, they studiously avoided the subjective problem of whether these initiates actually experienced the Holy Spirit by making the regenerating work of the Spirit automatic. But the Spirit does not jump just because we crack our whip! That's why, when I baptized people, I prayed that they would receive the Spirit, but left the actual time and way this would happen to the Spirit's discretion and timetable. It is better to have a New Testament power-based pneumatology than to ease insecurities about the when and the how!

btw, Have you noticed that Luke shows no evidence of an awareness of a regenerative work of the Spirit prior to "receiving the Spirit" by being baptized by the Spirit?

 

[JLB]

btw, Have you noticed that Luke shows no evidence of an awareness of a regenerative work of the Spirit prior to "receiving the Spirit" by being baptized by the Spirit?

If I understand you correctly, I will have to disagree.


Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. Acts 8:14-17

Samaria had received the Gospel message in which they were regenerated.

They were then baptized in water by Phillip

But they had yet to receive the Holy Spirit (baptism).



JLB

 

[Berserk]

JLB: " If I understand you correctly, I will have to disagree."

But JLB, your summation of the Samaritan conversions precisely illustrates my claim that Luke shows no explicit awareness of the regenerative work of the Spirit prior to Spirit baptism.

JLB: "Samaria had received the Gospel message in which they were regenerated."

Luke never says that they were "regenerated," that is, that they experienced being born again. Yes, they accepted "the Gospel" (8:12), called "the word of God" in 8:14, but no mention is made of the initial work of the Spirit in their conversion.

JLB: "They were then baptized in water by Phillip. But they had yet to receive the Holy Spirit (baptism)."

After their water baptism, Luke says neither that they receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit nor that they speak in tongues as in 10:44-47 and 19:5-6, but only that they then "receive the Holy Spirit," thus implying that they had not yet received the Spirit in any sense at their conversion.

 

[Shekinahglory]

The appended questions to Pauline texts (1)-(5) are intended to illustrate the reason for each quotation.
(1) "He (Paul) said to them, "Did you (Ephesian disciples) receive the Holy Spirit when you became believers (Acts 19:2)?"
Paul, how can you ask that question? I thought believers automatically receive the Spirit after repenting and professing faith in the Gospel?

We do receive the Holy Spirit when we believe. but we are babes in Christ and it is a matter of growing spiritually that our relationship becomes grown as well. the Holy Spirit is called the Comforter and like Paul and all the suffering he went through claimed to have gotten the peace that surpasses understanding being content in all things.

(2) "Are you so foolish? Having started with the Spirit, are you now ending with the flesh? Did you experience so much for nothing--if it really was for nothing? Well then, does God supply you with the Spirit and work miracles among you by your doing the works of the Law or by believing what you heard (Galatians 3:3-5)?"
Paul, how can you ask that question? Isn't my initial reception of the Spirit simply a matter of faith? Why do I need to "experience so much," including "miracles?"

yes faith lays claim to the Holy Spirit but He is still given to us by the Father and Son.because like anything practice makes perfect.

(3) "My (initial) speech and my proclamation were not with plausible words of wisdom, but with a demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom but on God's power (1 Corinthians 2:4-5)."
But Paul, when I got saved, the sermon I heard made excellent sense and I responded to the pastor's "plausible words." I felt convicted of my sins, but I never experienced "a demonstration of the Spirit and of power." What do you mean by that?

some believe the things that happened to others in Scripture are ours to claim. But if we study the miracles when they were given we find not everyone had the ability to perform miracles. The first time period for miracles was in the time leading up to the written O.T. And for The prophets to authenticate them being from God.Then new miracles served to authenticate the Apostles, their message and the N.T.

(4) "Pray in the Spirit at all times and in every prayer and supplication. to that end stay alert and always persevere in supplication for all the saints (Ephesians was 6:18)."
Paul, I pour out my heart to God in my prayers, but I'm not aware of praying in the Spirit "in every prayer." That sounds like my prayers must be Spirit-directed. How can I experience that? And why so much stress and staying highly awake?
you are His Bride He wants to spend quality time with you now and forever. He wants you to enter boldly but with full reverence of who He is. The Lord does not grade how you do. He sent Moses to Pharaoh telling him he was already failed before he left. Why and what is he reaching us? Talk to Him, love Him, enjoy being with Him. He has prepared a table for us in the presence of our enemies and He promises all who come He, the Father and Holy Spirit will dine with us. Enjoy Him now and trust He is not looking on your every move or word to give you a pass fail. He died for us to be His Bride.

(5) "If we walk in the Spirit, let us also be led by the Spirit (Galatians 5:25)."
Paul, I try to obey biblical principles. But you seem to be equating walking in the Spirit with being led by the Spirit and that sounds too mystical to me! How can I know whether I'm actually being led by the Spirit?

are your thoughts and words honoring of the Lord? Do you seek to make Him known when you have the opportunity? Are God and the things of God foolishness or the Good News? These are some ways. Does the Spirits fruit fill your life.
please, the Lord has told us 365 times in Scripture to rejoice, be joyful are the like once for every day of the year. I thinkHe knew we would need to be reminded. The sounds of joy and victory resound in the tents of His people. This is the Day that Lord has made let us be glad and taste of the Lord for He is good. Don’t cheat the Lord or ourselves of the joy He desires from you and for you. Know the truth, Jesus Christ, and the truth will set you free from all that is plaguing you in your post.God bless

I forgot this from Romans:

26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know how we ought to pray, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groans too deep for words. 27And He who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

 

[JLB]

Luke never says that they were "regenerated," that is, that they experienced being born again. Yes, they accepted "the Gospel" (8:12), called "the word of God" in 8:14, but no mention is made of the initial work of the Spirit in their conversion.

If the scripture says they received the Gospel message and then they were baptized, then obviously they believed and were saved; regenerated.

Otherwise Phillip Baptized unbelievers, which completely violates what Phillip was accustomed to doing.


Phillip only Baptized those who believed with all their heart.


Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”
And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.” Acts 8:36-37


Are you under the impression that Phillip Baptized unbelievers?


Do you believe they were not saved when they believed, for some reason?



Help me to understand where you are coming from with this.





JLB

 

[JLB]

After their water baptism, Luke says neither that they receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit nor that they speak in tongues as in 10:44-47 and 19:5-6, but only that they then "receive the Holy Spirit," thus implying that they had not yet received the Spirit in any sense at their conversion.

Again as I said previously, the term “receiving the Spirit” referred to the baptism of the Holy Spirit.


Do you understand that there are three distinct baptisms with three different Baptizer’s?


When we are born again we are baptized into Christ, by the Spirit, in which we are made to drink of the same Spirit.


For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13



JLB

 

[LovethroughDove]

I did have something happen when I received the Spirit. And I will tell you the series of events and they all culminate to me doing this:

Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth "Jesus is Lord", and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

First, I really wasn't 100% sure there was a God but I had always felt there probably is. Before I was 100% sure, I had called out to him to "kill me". I was desperate and if he was there, I needed him to take my pain away. I had just had an ectopic pregnancy removed and an appendix removal at the same time and whatever drugs they had given me had created the most painful headache ever. At the very moment I asked him to kill me, he put me to sleep. As I was waking, I felt in my spirit "He is my Son".
Matthew 16:16-17 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven."

Second, I understood what the blood of Jesus means. ~ This led me to the Jesus is Lord part. When I pondered what his DNA makeup is, I saw God being his biological Father and Mary his biological Mother. Son of God/Son of Man
Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ. The Revelation of the blood, leads us to the truth.

Third, I was in an argument with my sister about the death of Jesus. She said that he didn't really die, but he traveled around Europe. At that very moment I know 100% that what was stated in the Bible was what happened and that he had died and God raised him from the dead. The moment I was given this revelation, I felt a surge of energy go through my body. And, this happened: John 14:20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. I am saved!

 

[Prycejosh1987]

I would say both, It is gained but at the same time it is not earned.