Reconciling Scripture

[Mike]

I'm looking for members more astute to scripture (this means everyone else on the board ) to weigh in here. Few Christians that I know or have heard speak on sinning claim that it's even possible to live a sinless life while in the flesh. Our sinful nature is at war with out spiritual one in our walks. We see Paul clearly describing this war.

Rom 7
" 14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it."

Now, how do you reconcile such scriptures such as:

2 Cor 5
" 16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."

Col 3
" 1 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. 5 Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. 7 You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8 But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9 Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. 11 Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all."

I've underline words that seem to speak to the present in a Christian's life as opposed to the day we are glorified by God. I'm certain there will be quick work of this, but in my devotionals today, for some reason I really got hung up on these verses. I'm absolutely sure there is no contradiction in the Word, so there has to be more to this than I'm seeing tonight. I say "tonight" because I've read these many times over, and it never really struck me like it did tonight.

 

[Free]

I do not think it is possible that a Christian can walk without sin nor does the Bible ever put forward a notion that it is possible to do so. Indeed, even Paul never makes such a claim and John states "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1 Jn 1:8, NKJV)

But Paul is correct that the "new creation has come"--God's re-creative power which has entered the world through Christ's resurrection. This power is what Christians are to walk in to wage war against sin and put things right. It requires work on our part, relying on the Holy Spirit, to "Put to death...whatever belongs to your earthly nature."

We are not perfect now but it is something that we are to work towards. It is a new way of thinking based on the re-creative power of Christ that is now at work in the world, redeeming and renewing all of creation. We, and the world, will not be perfect until Christ's return but in the meantime, we are to work towards that end.

I'm tired--does that answer your questions?

 

[smaller]

I'm looking for members more astute to scripture (this means everyone else on the board ) to weigh in here. Few Christians that I know or have heard speak on sinning claim that it's even possible to live a sinless life while in the flesh. Our sinful nature is at war with out spiritual one in our walks. We see Paul clearly describing this war.

Rom 7
" 14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it."

Now, how do you reconcile such scriptures such as:

2 Cor 5
" 16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."

Col 3
" 1 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. 5 Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. 7 You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8 But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9 Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. 11 Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all."

I've underline words that seem to speak to the present in a Christian's life as opposed to the day we are glorified by God. I'm certain there will be quick work of this, but in my devotionals today, for some reason I really got hung up on these verses. I'm absolutely sure there is no contradiction in the Word, so there has to be more to this than I'm seeing tonight. I say "tonight" because I've read these many times over, and it never really struck me like it did tonight.

Not meaning to offend ANY believer, but there is a basic dishonesty to the scriptures with nearly ALL Christians who seem to utterly FAIL to 'connect' their SINS to the DEVIL.

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil;

Let there be no doubt. WE all are to DIVIDE ourselves from that working....

yet

To believe is to come into THE BATTLE and be guaranteed TEMPTATIONS of the DEVIL which are EVIL thoughts at a MINIMUM.

Most believers HATE to make this connection and IMMUNIZE themselves from the fact. I believe that disconnecting is a form of DEMONIC BLINDNESS in itself that causes MANY errors and separations between believers and fosters a basic form of dishonesty through hypocrisy in those who can not face this fact.

When we 'see' that WE as believers are NOT that working, seeing the path to SINLESSNESS is...

A REALITY in our LIFE.

Warning! This WILL change how you read EVERY WORD of God.

You have chided me for as little as a petty nothing over sin discussions here as a "MOD."

yet today, a so called believer DAMNED every believer at this board to ETERNAL HELL for not believing like him and NOBODY said...

ONE WORD...

go figger.

enjoy!

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[Tina]

.

Righteousness will not always protect us from sins or adversity but wisdom will guard us against it.


Ecclesiastes 7:20
Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous, no one who does what is right and never sins.

 

[mlqurgw]

The problem you are having stems from the traditional view of what sanctification is. Let me very clear, sanctification is not a process by which we become more holy it is an act of God just as justification is. The simple truth is that there are no such things as degrees to holiness or righteousness, you either are holy and righteous or you aren't. Almost holy is to be unholy.

Now lets look at the word sanctify and sanctification in the Scriptures. The word has 3 basic and related meanings as it is used in the Scriptures: the first and normal use is set apart as holy by God. The first use of the word is found in Gen. 2:3 where God set apart as holy the seventh day. The day didn't change it was simply set apart by God.

The second use of the word is to regard as holy or declare that a person or thing is holy. This is the sense in which we are said to sanctifiy God in our hearts. But it also applies to those whom God has sanctified. He regards them as holy.

The third use of the word is to actually make something holy. It is more than just a declaration of holiness it an actual change in the thing made holy. The nature of the thing is changed.

Now I said all of this to help you understand what I am about to say. All believers are sanctified in all three ways: We were set apart as holy in eternal election, declared holy by the justifying righteousness of Christ and made holy by the new creation in Christ. As long as believrs live in this body of death called the flesh we are a people of 2 natures, flesh and spirit. That which is flesh is flesh and never changes. It cannot be reformed or made better. It always remains sin and until we lay it down in physical death it is at war with our new nature. The spirit is the new creation spoken of in 2Cor. 5:17. The old man doesn't need to be taken to the hospital of religion to be healed but to the cross to be crucified. That is why Paul tells us to reckon ourselves to be dead indeed unto sin but alive unto righteousness through Jesus Christ our Lord. The new man is as holy and righteous as God's own Son. 1John 3:9, 4:17 The new man is Christ in you the hope of glory.

One more thing that needs to be understood is that growth in grace and knowledge must not be confused with sanctification. Believers do grow in grace and knowledge but that isn't sanctifiication.

 

[smaller]

I do not think it is possible that a Christian can walk without sin nor does the Bible ever put forward a notion that it is possible to do so. Indeed, even Paul never makes such a claim and John states "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1 Jn 1:8, NKJV)

But Paul is correct that the "new creation has come"--God's re-creative power which has entered the world through Christ's resurrection. This power is what Christians are to walk in to wage war against sin and put things right. It requires work on our part, relying on the Holy Spirit, to "Put to death...whatever belongs to your earthly nature."

We are not perfect now but it is something that we are to work towards. It is a new way of thinking based on the re-creative power of Christ that is now at work in the world, redeeming and renewing all of creation. We, and the world, will not be perfect until Christ's return but in the meantime, we are to work towards that end.

Paul was ADAMANT that believers MUST NOT place themselves UNDER the requirements of THE LAW of the Old Testament.

WHY?

Any casual read through Romans 7 shows us what happens when INDWELLING SIN that we ALL HAVE produces when it is placed UNDER the LAW.

The LAW serves to PROVE that SIN INDWELLS us all. And the reactions of that sin when placed UNDER the LAW produces EVERY KIND of EVIL in the heart. That is the very REAL operations of SIN in everyone.

It really places the believer in an impossible situation, as you have duly noted.

We cannot say 'we have no sin' because when we do THE TRUTH is not IN US.

The TRUTH is WE HAVE SIN and are thusly UNDER that operation presently.

It is not the FLESH that we war against as many believers FALSELY portray, but what IS IN the flesh, that being the LUST that is produced within the heart by indwelling SIN when placed UNDER the LAW.

One can NOT avoid the produce of SIN when that indwelling sin is placed UNDER LAW. That 'presence' will NEVER be lawful, obedient or LEGAL, period. That presence will only PRODUCE what it produces.

We can NOT walk therefore as FLESH MEN because of what factually IS in the flesh, which is indwelling sin.

When that indwelling SIN is placed UNDER LAW the DEVIL is granted instant access to provide TEMPTATION within the MIND, which is LUST.

When we TRUTHFULLY come to know that presence as Paul did:

NO LONGER I, we recognize WHO it is OF and we then have NO EXPECTATIONS of that TEMPTER being or working any differently than he does.

Make no mistake. The TEMPATIONS we ALL fall into are 'ours' as the produce of our own indwelling SIN is 'ours' respectively to bear IN THE FLESH. But that does NOT make us ALONE in that matter either.

The devil is involved with EVERY SIN. Those who fall headlong therein ARE his SLAVES.

enjoy!

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[Nathan]

Mike, you trying to pick a fight



It seems that the confusion 'revolves' around Romans chapter 7. Yea, Nah?

It seems that most of the rest of the NT teaches contradiction of that particular chapter, even in following chapters of Romans.

So maybe we need to look closer at that chapter, dissect it for what it is, and get a grasp of what that chapter is really saying.

Are you sure you put this in the right forum? Just saying....It might be better suited for the Bible Study forum. But it is your thread.

Here are some base thoughts to ponder on. I am being swept away in another river at the moment......

Paul states:

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.

Is Paul 'sold' under sin? Is he 'of the flesh'?


Here is what we know about his view, before chapter 7, on sin;

Rom 6:6-7 "We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin."

Rom 6:22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.



And his view of 'being in the flesh' is expressed after chapter 7 in chapter 8;

Rom 8:1-10 "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness."


So was Paul contradicting himself in that discourse in chapter 7? No. I think that he was simply making a point. What was the point? This will be rather lengthy, and receive a lot of criticism, but I trust that you will see it for what its worth.


Rom 7:1-25 "Or do you not know, brothers--for I am speaking to those who know the law--that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives?


For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage.


Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress.


Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.


For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.


But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.


What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, "You shall not covet."


But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead.


I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.


The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me.


For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.


So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.


Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure.


For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.


For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.


Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good.


So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.


For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.


For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing.


Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.


So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand.


For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being,


but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.


Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?


Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.


I think, believe, this is a series of arguments back and forth between himself. It is showing the 'process' of the new birth.

It is expounded upon by the following verse. lol. See, you know as well as I that chapters and verses were only put in to make reading 'easier' and referencing easier. Its a lot easier to say, "Romans chapter 7, verse 25" than to say " "The letter that was written to the Romans, midway through, a couple of paragraphs down, starting with the words 'Thanks be to God'"

So in all due diligence we have to look at the following verse to grasp the 'argument' that Paul is making.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Why does He say this? Is it random? No, it is in reply to the previous statement made by him in the previous 'chapter'.

Rom 7:1 Or do you not know, brothers--for I am speaking to those who know the law--that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives?

So, where as our 'flesh' the physical thing you see in the mirror, is indeed sinful, we do not 'live' in it. We, dwell in it, but we do not live in it. Therefore, we live in the Spirit, and in the Spirit we can indeed be sinless. It is only when we 'walk after' the flesh that we sin.

Jam 1:14-15 "But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

If we live in the Spirit, we are promised that we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. How? How can that be? Look at what James says, "then desire when it has conceived". The 'conceiving' is a reproduction. We know that sin 'stains' everything it comes in contact with. That is why our flesh is stained. It will not be 'unstained' till we receive a new one.

But, our spirit is new. It was born from above. So when our spirit is in intimacy with God's Spirit, it conceives and produces 'good fruit'. But any time our spirit is in intimacy with our flesh it conceives and produces 'bad fruit'.

Hope this helps.

 

[smaller]

If we live in the Spirit, we are promised that we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. How? How can that be? Look at what James says, "then desire when it has conceived". The 'conceiving' is a reproduction. We know that sin 'stains' everything it comes in contact with. That is why our flesh is stained. It will not be 'unstained' till we receive a new one.

But, our spirit is new. It was born from above. So when our spirit is in intimacy with God's Spirit, it conceives and produces 'good fruit'. But any time our spirit is in intimacy with our flesh it conceives and produces 'bad fruit'.

I use similar observations with Seventh Day Adventists on these same matters.

They, for example, believe that a believer MUST worship on Saturday and NOT eat pork. These are OLD TESTAMENT LAWS (amongst a myriad of same.)

And they also THINK they are being 'legal' and 'obedient' when doing so.

The reality IS, when one attempts such performances, the guage or judge of OBEDIENCE is seen by them as AN EXTERNAL MATTER and therefore they THINK they are obedient to those commands.

The fact of indwelling sin however says this:

Did you ever THINK of eating pork? IF so, then THAT was just as much A SIN as EATING same.

Did you ever THINK of not worshipping on Saturday? IF so, then THAT was just as much A SIN as not worshipping on Saturday.

It is POINTLESS to judge SIN only on the OUTSIDE, by EXTERNAL obedience.

Paul was clear about 'how' sin works in response to THE LAW. The produce of LUST which came from the LAW that says, DO NOT COVET produced here first:

Romans 7:

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

The Seventh Dayers ALL can sit in their PEWS and claim LEGAL OBEDIENCE....

I will remain with the FACTS of LAW in relation to sin, that IN THEM ALL was produced A LUST to EAT PORK and to DISOBEY Saturday worship....

within them, that is IN THEIR MINDS....

and in EVERY ONE of them, in falsely covering up THIS FACT are in fact deceived.

They have NOT produced HONESTY within themselves. None of them will ADMIT in TRUTH what has been WROUGHT IN THEM was in fact A SIN.

This same example can be drawn out many other directions.

Even WORSE is the Seventh Dayer, in THINKING themselves LEGAL and using their MEASURES of obedience as THEE MEASURE now are FORCED to condemn other people for EATING PORK and NOT attending church on Saturday.

They have in fact fallen into a dramatically WORSE situation in that matter because NOW they feast at the table OF CONDEMNATION to 'other sinners' and FALSE self justifications.

They can ALL claim they NEVER thought of eating PORK and that if they DID, it wasn't A SIN.

I will say they are all deceived IN THEIR MINDS and are NOT even showing a shred of truth about how SIN works in relation to THE LAW.

enjoy!

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[Free]

Paul was ADAMANT that believers MUST NOT place themselves UNDER the requirements of THE LAW of the Old Testament.

WHY?

Any casual read through Romans 7 shows us what happens when INDWELLING SIN that we ALL HAVE produces when it is placed UNDER the LAW.

The LAW serves to PROVE that SIN INDWELLS us all. And the reactions of that sin when placed UNDER the LAW produces EVERY KIND of EVIL in the heart. That is the very REAL operations of SIN in everyone.

It really places the believer in an impossible situation, as you have duly noted.

We cannot say 'we have no sin' because when we do THE TRUTH is not IN US.

The TRUTH is WE HAVE SIN and are thusly UNDER that operation presently.

It is not the FLESH that we war against as many believers FALSELY portray, but what IS IN the flesh, that being the LUST that is produced within the heart by indwelling SIN when placed UNDER the LAW.

One can NOT avoid the produce of SIN when that indwelling sin is placed UNDER LAW. That 'presence' will NEVER be lawful, obedient or LEGAL, period. That presence will only PRODUCE what it produces.

We can NOT walk therefore as FLESH MEN because of what factually IS in the flesh, which is indwelling sin.

When that indwelling SIN is placed UNDER LAW the DEVIL is granted instant access to provide TEMPTATION within the MIND, which is LUST.

When we TRUTHFULLY come to know that presence as Paul did:

NO LONGER I, we recognize WHO it is OF and we then have NO EXPECTATIONS of that TEMPTER being or working any differently than he does.

Make no mistake. The TEMPATIONS we ALL fall into are 'ours' as the produce of our own indwelling SIN is 'ours' respectively to bear IN THE FLESH. But that does NOT make us ALONE in that matter either.

The devil is involved with EVERY SIN. Those who fall headlong therein ARE his SLAVES.

enjoy!

smaller

I"m not sure what this has to do with my post.

 

[smaller]

I"m not sure what this has to do with my post.

If you could say what it is you don't get, then perhaps you'd be able to dialog?

I was responding to your TRUTH, here:

"I do not think it is possible that a Christian can walk without sin nor does the Bible ever put forward a notion that it is possible to do so. Indeed, even Paul never makes such a claim and John states "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1 Jn 1:8, NKJV) "

What you may not understand is that all SIN is connected to THE DEVIL. (1 John 3:8) Yes, even in believers.

In most believers, the instant this FACT is put forth, their MINDS shut down and they scratch their heads because they THINK they are immune from that FACT.

so...

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Drew]

Our sinful nature is at war with out spiritual one in our walks. We see Paul clearly describing this war.

Rom 7
" 14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it."

There is no problem in respect to Romans 7, since it is, I suggest, describing a person who is not a Christian. I trust that I will be allowed to present the following perfectly legitimate (read non-combative) argument to this effect. Please do not censor what is clearly an argument that speaks directly to your OP:

1. The person described in Romans 7 is experiencing a "law" of sin that leads to death:

but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?

2. The Christian in Romans 8 is described as having been set free from from this law of sin and death.

2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death

3. If the position that the person in Romans 7 is a Christian is correct, - then we have the following statements:

a. The Christian is subject to the law of sin that produces death (clear statement from Romans 7)

b. The Christian is set free from the law of sin that produces death (clear statement from Romans 8)

These statements are inconsistent. Therefore, assuming we agree that the statement from Romans 8 is about the Christian, the Romans 7 cannot be descriptive of the experience of the Christian - one cannot be both subject to the effects of a law and yet also released from its effect.

 

[Drew]

As some of you will know, I think that Romans 7 is neither a description of Paul's personal experience, even though he does use the "I" formalism. Nor is it a description of the experience of any Christian. Romans 7 is, I suggest, Paul's analysis of the plight of the (non-Christian) Jew, struggling with the Torah, the Law of Moses.

In our headlong rush to think that every text is "directly about me the believer", we miss the rather obvious cues that this Romans 7 text cannot be descriptive of the believer. I have just provided one argument as to why this is so. And there are others.

The person in Romans 7 is "unable to the good he wants to do". Is that the state of the Christian? No - this is simply not possible - there are too many texts which teach that the Christian is both able, and in fact "destined" to do good things. Not least this famous text from Romans 8:

And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son,

Now this is a text about the Christian. But a person stuck in slavish obedience to sin? That is a Christian? Not likey, and thankfully so.

In fact, to add even more evidence to an already impressive pile, Paul clearly implies (near the end of Romans 7) that Jesus delivers us from the Romans 7 state of slavery to sin.

So we need not fret - Romans 7 is a state that the Christian simply is not in.

 

[Drew]

Most believers HATE to make this connection and IMMUNIZE themselves from the fact. I believe that disconnecting is a form of DEMONIC BLINDNESS in itself that causes MANY errors and separations between believers and fosters a basic form of dishonesty through hypocrisy in those who can not face this fact.

To show that I do not disagree with all that you post, I do agree with the spirit of this and other related posts - I believe that the New Testament indeed teaches that the (unredeemed) human is indeed subject to the influences of an "external" force of evil.

 

[smaller]

To show that I do not disagree with all that you post, I do agree with the spirit of this and other related posts - I believe that the New Testament indeed teaches that the (unredeemed) human is indeed subject to the influences of an "external" force of evil.

Sorry Drew, that was not in any of my posts.

Jesus advised us all clearly where EVIL comes from.

Matthew 15:19
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts,

Mark 7:21
For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts,

Externalize these Words of His all you please.

The problem is on the INSIDE of the CUP as Jesus taught.

Few want to or CAN confront this matter within, just as the Pharisees COULD NOT. The existence of that very REAL evil forces slaves of same to look OUTSIDE and to blame OTHER people, sects and things.

That is not the message of the Gospel and WHY we NEED HIS LOVE within US to 'overcome.'

The man who hung his head in the knowledge that he was in fact a sinner, went to his 'home' JUSTIFIED because that man was IN TRUTH, even if that TRUTH was personally 'unpleasant.'

Luke 18:14
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.


enjoy!

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[Drew]

Few want to or CAN confront this matter within, just as the Pharisees COULD NOT. The existence of that very REAL evil forces slaves of same to look OUTSIDE and to blame OTHER people, sects and things.

I suggest that the Bible clearly teaches that there is a "force" or "power" at work in the world, sometimes referred to as "sin" by Paul. In Romans 7, Paul articulates how this "power" is at war with the "I", preventing that "I" from doing what it wants to do. And Paul quite explicitly distinguishes between this "power of sin" and the "I":

For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it

So while it is indeed correct to "locate" this "power of sin" within the human person, it is described as an entity distinct from the "I".

So it is, I suggest, biblically correct to assert that there is indeed a "force" or "power" at work in the (unredeemed person) which is, in some sense, a "foreign invader".

 

[Nathan]

Drew I do not think you should worry about the post being censored.

I made the same argument in my post. I do not believe the person in Romans 7 is a Christian either. I believe it is the 'process' in which one comes to the realization of sin, and the need for grace.

I say 'process' because it shows us the 'reasoning'(considering) that takes place in mans mind. That is, after all, what Paul is describing here. He is not talking about the heart of man, where salvation through faith is born. Paul is talking about the mind.

The process of reasoning, considering, is seen here in Scripture;

Isa 1:18-20 "Come now, let us reason together, says the LORD: though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool. If you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land; but if you refuse and rebel, you shall be eaten by the sword; for the mouth of the LORD has spoken."


And even on top of this we see Paul addressing this issue directly before he goes into the discourse in chapter 7.

Rom 6:1-11 "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus."

Reasoning and considering take place in the mind. It is a thoughtful process, not just an blip of thought. We see this because if it were not so there would not be so much written down for our LEARNING. If it were just a blip of thought that was inserted into our minds without our consideration/reasoning, then there stands no reason for so much information.

 

[smaller]

I suggest that the Bible clearly teaches that there is a "force" or "power" at work in the world, sometimes referred to as "sin" by Paul. In Romans 7, Paul articulates how this "power" is at war with the "I", preventing that "I" from doing what it wants to do. And Paul quite explicitly distinguishes between this "power of sin" and the "I":

For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it

So while it is indeed correct to "locate" this "power of sin" within the human person, it is described as an entity distinct from the "I".

So it is, I suggest, biblically correct to assert that there is indeed a "force" or "power" at work in the (unredeemed person) which is, in some sense, a "foreign invader".

Those who worship God must do so in Spirit and IN TRUTH.

Here is my confession.

I have SIN.

Sin is OF THE DEVIL.

Therefore I have EVIL present with me.

I need Gods Mercy in Jesus Christ continually because of this fact.

Others who do not have this need, have no NEED.

That's really all I can say about it.

enjoy!

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[Drew]

I do not believe the person in Romans 7 is a Christian either"

We certainly do agree on this. It should be reiterated that it is exceedingly risky to dive into a text and simply assume that it expresses something about the Christian experience. At various places in Romans as a whole, Paul is telling the "narrative" of God's plan of redemption, from Adam to Abraham to Moses to Christ and on out the other side into the era of the church. So not all of it is directly relevant to the experience of the believer.

This is not idle theology for the pointy-headed - there are important practical implications. If someone believes that Romans 7 in any sense characterizes the life of the Christian, that person may (falsely) come to believe that its "normal" for the Christian to be mired in the Romans 7 state.

It is decidedly not normal - anyone who truthfully remains in a state where "they cannot do the good they want to do" should ask serious questions of themselves.

Thanks be to Jesus who delivers us from the awful state of the "I" in Romans 7.