Redirectionalism

[Deborah13]

The Book of Daniel has only "opened up", as it were, since the 20th Century, since knowledge has increased and world travel have progressed.

"But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase." Daniel 12:4

And he said, "Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Daniel 12:9

...many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase, is the key to when the book will be "opened up" to understanding.

JLB

Well, just one more post.
I believe that when Jesus told them that what He was talking about was in the book of Daniel, He unsealed the book at that point.
I believe "the time of the end" is referring to the end of the Mosaic age or temple age.
It does not say "end times".
I believe knowledge did increase. Before this time they did not really have an understanding of the Messiah that was to come or what His kingdom was. They did not know that He would come to redeem all mankind. I believe this is talking about Knowledge about God and the Savior.
I'm not clear about the "running to and fro" but certainly the disciples traveled all over the known world spreading the Gospel message.

 

[JLB]

Well, just one more post.
I believe that when Jesus told them that what He was talking about was in the book of Daniel, He unsealed the book at that point.
I believe "the time of the end" is referring to the end of the Mosaic age or temple age.
It does not say "end times".
I believe knowledge did increase. Before this time they did not really have an understanding of the Messiah that was to come or what His kingdom was. They did not know that He would come to redeem all mankind. I believe this is talking about Knowledge about God and the Savior.
I'm not clear about the "running to and fro" but certainly the disciples traveled all over the known world spreading the Gospel message.

Show me in the scriptures where there is a "mosaic age".

That is a man made term to prop up a man made doctrine.

The time of the end is marked as 4 "But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase."

That is a reference to Travel, and most likely world travel.

The increase of knowledge has become a world wide phenomenon, with the "birth" of the internet, just recently.


JLB

 

[turnorburn]

Deborah said:

I believe "the time of the end" is referring to the end of the Mosaic age or temple age.

Where did you learn this Deborah...

Thanks

tob

*edit: and it doesn't say end times its says time of the end, "end times" time of the end" those two terms marry up just fine, imo they do.

 

[donald perry]

O.k. first we have the disciples walking up to Jesus he looks at the temple and tells them its going to be taken down.. he did that as he was leaving the temple, probably a few people milling around.

Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Down here in verse 3 we see Jesus and the disciples having a private conversation, no people milling around here, its as if he didn't care what those people milling around the temple heard, but now he has something he wants to discuss privately with his own disciples, as they ask him..

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Here its a completely new revelation "the end of the world" and "the sign of his coming" two distinctly different conversations, haven't you joined these two encounters into one?

tob

Jesus in answering their question. He is not answering a different question. The question was "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

They are all one in the same. The age here is not the Christian age, it is the Jewish age which naturally includes the temple. That ended at the cross for us, but for those who rejected the truth and believed a lie, that ended for them from 66-70 and even after AD 70. It took a while to demo the temple, and I am sure the Jews were used to do this. It must have been a lot of work.

Now, if you want to make that temple all over again so it can be destroyed again you are basically saying that God is going to bring back the Jewish age and dishonor His Son and allow another High Priest. That is not going to happen. Furthermore, such an enterprise will not be called THE TEMPLE OF GOD in 2 Thess. 2. It would be a temple of something else, not a temple of God. See Hebrews 6 and 10.

The Jews today are not the concern of Matthew 24. These are our concern in a different context with the rest of the world now that Christianity has been established.

 

[donald perry]

From Deborah "It's called the Historical view. None of them became Full Preterists or Hyper Preterists (whatever that is). Could you state your argument for believing that if one is partial preterist they Will become......"

John Calvin : " In this manner, therefore, we ought to explain this latter clause: “The end of the world will not come before I have tried my Church, for a long period, by severe and painful temptations,” for it is contrasted with the false imagination which the apostles had formed in their minds. Hence, too, we ought to learn that no particular time is here fixed, as if the last day were to follow in immediate succession those events which were just now foretold; for the believers long ago experienced the fulfillment of those predictions which we have now examined, and yet Christ did not immediately appear. But Christ had no other design than to restrain the apostles, who were disposed to fly with excessive eagerness to the possession of the heavenly glory, and to show them the necessity of patience; as if he had said, that redemption was not so close at hand as they had imagined it to be, but that they must pass through long windings." http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/calvin/cc33/index.htm

I think the Historical view is similar to the Idealistic View. The Partial Preterist Postmillennial view is less Idealistic. The problem I am talking about occurs when the idealistic view can be more logically diminished to disappear. And this would come from not properly understanding Matthew 24 as a historical parable, or understanding sanctification and salvation as two separate things. They are not the same thing. If they are the same thing then you are not saved, you are only getting saved. Not saved yet. Or, if you are a hyper-Preterist, then there is no sanctification, you are already saved and have already been sanctified.

The Partial Preterists I am talking about are more advanced. See Reformed RC Sproul, Kenneth Gentry, Keith Mathison, Gary Demar etc.

 

[Deborah13]

Deborah said:

Where did you learn this Deborah...

Thanks

tob

*edit: and it doesn't say end times its says time of the end, "end times" time of the end" those two terms marry up just fine, imo they do.

Hi turnorburn,
I didn't learn it from another person or a person's writing. It's just how I read the scripture, trying to stay within the context. Looking at who said it, when it was said, and to whom it was said. I also try to remember that these were Jewish people who may have a different understanding of such phrases as 'end times'.
I hear a difference between 'end times' and 'time of the end' in the context of Daniel. But that's just me.
If you hear it differently and you may be right.

 

[donald perry]

The Book of Daniel has only "opened up", as it were, since the 20th Century, since knowledge has increased and world travel have progressed.

The Bible does not care about that. The book of Revelation shows that Revelation [which explains Daniel] was unsealed from Christ's ascension.

The running running and knowledge has to do with Christ and the Gospel having gone through all the world.

John Calvin http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/calvin/cc33/cc33017.htm on Matthew 24: "Whatever may be the contrivances of Satan, and how numerous soever may be the multitudes which he carries away, yet the gospel will maintain its ground till it be spread through the whole world. This might indeed appear to be incredible; but it was the duty of the apostles, relying on this testimony of their Master, to cherish hope against hope, and, in the meantime, to strive vigorously to discharge their office. As to the objection brought by some, that to this day not even the slightest report concerning Christ has reached the Antipodes and other very distant nations, this difficulty may be speedily resolved; for Christ does not absolutely refer to every portion of the world, and does not fix a particular time, but only affirms that the gospel—which, all would have thought, was immediately to be banished from Judea, its native habitation would be spread to the farthest bounds of the world before the day of his last coming."

See also the word "world" in the concordance.

 

[donald perry]

"I believe "the time of the end" is referring to the end of the Mosaic age or temple age."

Yes it was the end of the Mosaic age and temple, but unfortunately what was destroyed in AD 70 is resurrected today in different forms.

Untimely man has not changed and neither had God. So the kind of thing that was destroyed in AD 70 will need to be destroyed again in our age. Therefore we must watch, and we must overcome.

 

[Deborah13]

Jesus in answering their question. He is not answering a different question. The question was "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

They are all one in the same. The age here is not the Christian age, it is the Jewish age which naturally includes the temple. That ended at the cross for us, but for those who rejected the truth and believed a lie, that ended for them from 66-70 and even after AD 70. It took a while to demo the temple, and I am sure the Jews were used to do this. It must have been a lot of work.

Now, if you want to make that temple all over again so it can be destroyed again you are basically saying that God is going to bring back the Jewish age and dishonor His Son and allow another High Priest. That is not going to happen. Furthermore, such an enterprise will not be called THE TEMPLE OF GOD in 2 Thess. 2. It would be a temple of something else, not a temple of God. See Hebrews 6 and 10.

I agree with this statement except for the 'that is not going to happen'. I don't know that God will not allow it, but I do believe that He will not bless it for the reason's you stated.

The Jews today are not the concern of Matthew 24. These are our concern in a different context with the rest of the world now that Christianity has been established.

 

[Deborah13]

"I believe "the time of the end" is referring to the end of the Mosaic age or temple age."

Yes it was the end of the Mosaic age and temple, but unfortunately what was destroyed in AD 70 is resurrected today in different forms.

Untimely man has not changed and neither had God. So the kind of thing that was destroyed in AD 70 will need to be destroyed again in our age. Therefore we must watch, and we must overcome.

I agree, pride comes before a fall.

 

[donald perry]

I agree with this statement except for the 'that is not going to happen'. I don't know that God will not allow it, but I do believe that He will not bless it for the reason's you stated.

What will not happen and what cannot happen is that God will take his elect back to OT sacrifices and institute another High Priest on earth to make animal scarifies on earth for which He will recognize the blood of animals in heaven in order to bring atonement and mediation again between God and Man. This was forever done away with in Christ, this is why Christ came, to fulfill these types and shadows. If God needs to institute a program to bring us back to the OT age and sanctify for us a temple in the middle east then why did the OT temple ever need to be destroyed in the first place?, or why is it defined as the end of an age by God? Furthermore, the definintion of an Anti-Christ is someone who does not believe Christ has come in the flesh. The very foundation of the temple would be on the doctrine of the Anti-Christ. It could not be called as 2 Thess. 2 puts it, the temple of God.

Perhaps the illuminati and the Masons would like to build a temple there, this would need to be without the levitical priesthood because today there isn't any. Most of the Jews in Israel today are converted Khazar Ashkenazi-Jews, from what I understand. Most of the TV preachers are also Masons, many give the Mason devil horn hand sign. The whole physical recapitulation with the reversed outcome of Matt 24 conveniently supports the illuminati agenda. So perhaps something might happen there, but that would have nothing to do with anything found in either the Old or New Testaments and certainly have nothing to do with the literal fulfillment of the second coming.

 

[donald perry]

"I agree, pride comes before a fall. "

Good point. Yes, that is still the case today.

 

[JLB]

Jesus in answering their question. He is not answering a different question. The question was "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

They are all one in the same. The age here is not the Christian age, it is the Jewish age which naturally includes the temple. That ended at the cross for us, but for those who rejected the truth and believed a lie, that ended for them from 66-70 and even after AD 70. It took a while to demo the temple, and I am sure the Jews were used to do this. It must have been a lot of work.

Now, if you want to make that temple all over again so it can be destroyed again you are basically saying that God is going to bring back the Jewish age and dishonor His Son and allow another High Priest. That is not going to happen. Furthermore, such an enterprise will not be called THE TEMPLE OF GOD in 2 Thess. 2. It would be a temple of something else, not a temple of God. See Hebrews 6 and 10.

The Jews today are not the concern of Matthew 24. These are our concern in a different context with the rest of the world now that Christianity has been established.

Not if it happened during the 70th week of Daniel.

It would be called the Temple of God.

By the Jews, anyway.


JLB

 

[donald perry]

Not if it happened during the 70th week of Daniel. See Edward J. Young The Geneva series of commentaries on Daniel.

It would be called the Temple of God. By the Jews, anyway.

Paul is not using the Lords name in vein. 2 Thess. 2 is written to the Thessalonians to watch for a sign in what is called quite rightly by Paul the Temple of God. Whatever sign it is it is the same sign as what is in the Luke 21 apocalypse version. There is not here several different apocalypses any more then there are several different Gospels.

 

[JLB]

The Book of Daniel has only "opened up", as it were, since the 20th Century, since knowledge has increased and world travel have progressed.

The Bible does not care about that. The book of Revelation shows that Revelation [which explains Daniel] was unsealed from Christ's ascension.

The Bible does not care about that.

The bible states very clearly -

4 "But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase."

... many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase, is the phrase that that defines the activities of the time of the end.

many shall run to and fro, is a reference to travel.

knowledge shall increase, the increase of knowledge has now exploded, even on a world wide scale, with the invention of computers and the internet.

Why anyone would try to argue this basic fact is interesting.

The increase of knowledge and travel, especially world travel, as well as space travel has increased just as Daniel prophesied, and now the Spirit of God has opened again the truths of daniel to this generation, that has witnessed wars and rumors of wars, those claiming to be the Christ, as well as earthquakes and famines world wide, just as jesus taught would happen at the end of the age.

Next we will see the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem.

Just as Daniel predicted.

The bible is true.

Daniel is a true Prophet.

Jesus is the Truth.

The man of sin will go to this temple and proclaim himself as God.

Then there will Great Tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world, nor shall ever be.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

Not if it happened during the 70th week of Daniel.

It would be called the Temple of God.

By the Jews, anyway.


JLB

But would God call it "the temple of God"?

 

[donald perry]

Daniel is a true Prophet.

Jesus is the Truth.

The man of sin will go to this temple and proclaim himself as God.

Edited

For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. And that would include Daniel'

 

[JLB]

Daniel is a true Prophet.

Jesus is the Truth.

The man of sin will go to this temple and proclaim himself as God.

If what you say is true that Jesus is a liar.

It is not what I say, It is what Paul says, by the Spirit.

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

EDITED
JLB

 

[JLB]

Daniel is a true Prophet.

Jesus is the Truth.

The man of sin will go to this temple and proclaim himself as God.

If what you say is true that Jesus is a liar.

For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. And that would include Daniel'

20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. Luke 21:20-22

The events that took place according to the prophecies of the old testament, definitely need to come to pass, so that ALL THINGS WRITTEN MAY BE FULFILLED.

The prophesied destruction of Jerusalem is just one on many many things that needed to come to pass so that all the things that were written may be fulfilled.

If you are insinuating that the surrounding of Jerusalem by armies some how fulfills all the old testament prophecies, then you are sadly mistaken.

This scripture has not been fulfilled -

1 Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst. 2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. 4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. 5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You. 6 It shall come to pass in that day That there will be no light; The lights will diminish. 7 It shall be one day Which is known to the Lord-- Neither day nor night. But at evening time it shall happen That it will be light. Zechariah 14:1-7


This is a description of The Olivet Discourse.

The sun darkened, the moon does not give it's light.

Jesus comes with His saints.

This is something to look forward to!


JLB

 

[donald perry]

What do you think of these hand signs? Do you think it is coincidence or are these Masons who have an agenda to REVERSE Jesus' interpretation of Luke 21:22?