donald perry
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Redirectionalism
- Thread starter donald perry
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donald perry
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Dan, you can take the whole Bible and like you already implied make it end in AD 70 as a history book .... once you start with Preterism there is no end to it. I would advise you to abandon that system and think in more idealistic terms. Any reasons you can come up with for a third coming on a purely chronological timeline are *easy* to prove that your system is being inconsistent. If you do not believe that then all I can say is buy about $200 worth of Preterist books and go see for yourself. Start with James Russel. In the end the only argument you will have is ones from outside the Preterist model. Preterism is by its very nature given to heresy. Here is a scripture verse for you to back up what I am saying. "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:..." The Millennium is within that verse description for Revelation, Revelation is not about things after the exchange of the heavens and earth defined as covenants. See Gary DeMar for that.
Please try and make your posts shorter.
Please try and make your posts shorter.
Donald, I really don't need your lecture on the scripture. I am quite capable of reading it. If you, however prefer to debate, I would love it. It is very hard to get people to debate a literal interpretation. Most people, it seems, like to spiritualize and avoid the scripture.
Why would I take the whole Bible and make it a history book? Is that what you did?
My rule has generally been to not dismiss any possibility in the scripture just because I don't happen to like it.
I checked out full preterism, and dismissed it (e.g., Don Preston is one of them I researched. I am certain you have heard of him.) There was no provision for the 1000 year reign and the subsequent release of Satan to deceive the nations.
Doctines that degrade the divinity of Christ and the Church, like Dispensationalism and Jehovah's Witness, were easy to dismiss. They are not biblical, at all.
To me, the New Testament makes perfect sense if I take everything literally that can be reasonably taken that way. Regarding Rev 1:1:
"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:..."
Let me see if I understand this correctly: Jesus is revealing to us what was shortly to come to pass.
And what was shortly to come to pass?
Jerusalem was to be destroyed. Christ was coming to gather his elect. And Satan was to be bound for 1000 years.
Now, if I was completely inflexible, I would think unreasonably and pretend the 1000 years was not a 1000 years because the things in the Revelation were to "shortly come to pass," which was mentioned first.
I could also throw in all other sorts of other biblical constraints, such as imaginary covenant rules, as if the New Testament was invalid until the Old was completely and totally fulfilled, or something to that effect. Then I could make myself feel that I was doing the right thing in assuming the Apostles and Saints judged the nations for "one lousy day," or a very short period of time, before Satan was released.
But I could also interpret in a reasonable manner and assume that:
this is the only time period "outside the box,"
a specific time period was given,
certain events were suppose to occur that would make no sense in a short time frame, and
there are limited specifics about what is to occur after the 1000 years,
all under the absolute, indisputable knowledge that
the same stiff-necked bunch with their hellish religion is at it again (after all this time.)
If I did not interpret the aftermath of Satan's release from prison in that manner, then your "worries" about me going full-preterist might have some merit. The full-preterist way, however, would have been a reasonable choice if everyone was already living happily every after; but that is just not the case. Far from it.
One other point: Revelation 22 is not significant to my interpretation, from a time perspective. It is likely the pouring out of the Holy Spirit from the Day of Pentecost forward is the result of the fulfillment of this reference to the holy city, New Jerusalem:
"And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb." (Revelation 22:1)
Recall that Jesus spake of "living water" in this manner:
"He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water." (John 7:38)
The context, provided in the next verse, points to the Day of Pentecost:
"(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)" (John 7:39)
I doubt there is any difference between the river of water of life and rivers of living water. Both are "healing streams."
Therefore, I believe the Day of Pentecost occurred after the "new heaven and new earth" part of Rev 21:1 had already been fulfilled. Think about it. Suddenly, normal people with a decent heart had access to something absolutely amazing that was virtually unheard of before the Day of Pentecost. That, to me, is the New Heaven and New Earth.
There are also a couple of references in the Old Testament where Israel rejected the Fountain of Living Waters. This is one:
Jeremiah 13:17 O Lord, the hope of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the Lord, the fountain of living waters.
Is that the same as rejecting the Holy Spirit?
BTW, I have almost unlimited access to books of every doctrinal persuasion online (though the Dispensationalists tend to be very protective of their material.) I have read most of the Parousia. Not bad.
I believe I am a Reformed Presbyterian. Well, I really liked John Otis' video series on Youtube, and he and I seem to see eye-to-eye on many things. Order the study guide from his website ($10) and you will find the videos a lot more accommodating.
I kept this post short, just for you.
Dan
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Almost forgot. This is the order of events in my interpretation:
"But every man in his own order:" (1 Corinthians 15:23)
1. The resurrection of Christ.
"Christ the firstfruits;" (1 Corinthians 15:23)
2. The Coming of Christ, The Binding of Satan, The First Resurrection, The Beginning of the 1000 year reign: all A.D. 70
"afterward they that are Christ's at his coming." (1 Corinthians 15:23)
"And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season." (Revelation 20:1-3)
“And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.” (Revelation 20:4-6)
3. Satan released from prison at the end of the 1000 year reign.
"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea." (Revelation 20:7-8)
4. Indeterminate time. Then the Defeat of Satan.
"And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." 20:9-10)
5. The End. The Final Judgement. Death is Destroyed.
"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." (1 Corinthians 15:24-26)
"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works." (Revelation 20:13)
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:14-15)
Dan
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The scripture I quoted to refute your claim of a resurrection of 70 AD is -
But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 1 Corinthians 15:20
Christ is the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. He has been raised from the dead. He is the pattern for those who will be raiosed from the dead.
He has a body that will never die. His natural body has been raised a spiritual body.
His people will be resurrected from the dead, when He comes at the end of the age.
21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.
Those who are Christ's, means all of His people.
All of His people will be resurrected from the dead, except those who are alive when He Comes.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 1 Corinthians 15:51-53
Jesus has not come to Gather His people at the resurrection!
When He does, every eye will see Him
The resurrection of the dead has not occurred.
If you believe the resurrection has taken place already, you have strayed from truth.
If you teach people that the Resurrection is past, you yourself cause people to stray from the truth.
17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. 2 Timothy 2:17-18
JLB
Let's look at your verse in context, Donald.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body...
49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 1 Corinthians 15:42-44,49-53
The Human body is what is raised from the dead, not the soul.
The body is raised from the dead.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. 6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:2-6
The Human body is what is resurrected from the dead.
JLB
Now I am convinced you don't read my posts, because I recently posted scripture and interpretation of Jesus' Coming in 70 A.D., as follows:
"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds [Tribes] of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen." (Rev 1:7)
Note the Roman soldiers that pierced him, also saw him. Therefore, the Coming of Christ had to have occurred in the generation of the Apostles, around 70 A.D., exactly like Jesus said half-dozen times or more in the Gospels.
I don't understand why you have so much trouble understanding what Jesus said. He speaks very plainly: crystal clear, to be precise.
What would Jesus have had to say to convince you that "this generation" meant "the generation of his Apostles?" Maybe:
"LISTEN, YOU HARD HEAD. I AM COMING BACK SHORTLY, WITHIN THIS GENERATION, BEFORE SOME OF MY DISCIPLES ARE DEAD, AND NO, THEY ARE NOT GOING TO HAVE ABNORMALLY LONG LIFESPANS LIKE SOME FREAK, AND YES THE ROMAN SOLDIERS THAT PIERCED MY HANDS, FEET AND BELLY WILL ALSO BE ALIVE WHEN I COME TO GATHER MY ELECT, EXACTLY LIKE I SAID."
And that is exactly what happened in 70 A.D.
I will try to think of other creative ways to convince you that Jesus was not trying to fool you. People like Cyrus Scofield were. You can take that to the bank.
In the meantime, I posted my interpretation of Christ as the "firstfruits" in the post immediately above this post by you. You do not seem to understand the concept of the resurrection of Christ, the first resurrection, and the final judgement being separate events. Try to consider that as a possibility, since that is what Paul said in your reference,
"But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits [that is #1]; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming [that is #2]. Then cometh the end [that is #3]" (1 Corinthians 15:23-24)
You see, they are three separate events.
You might also want to start considering that we are not his elect.
"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. . . Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded." (Romans 11:5, 7)
The "remnant" was the "election." If not, the remnant was also blinded, and that is not what the scripture said.
Anyway, that is my story, and I am sticking to it, until I read something that makes more sense.
Dan
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I have no trouble understanding the clear and plain words from scripture.
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31
All the tribes of the earth will see the Son of Man when He comes.
If the Jews saw Jesus Christ Coming in all of His Glory in 70 AD, then there would be no more unbelieving Jews on earth because all would see Him and know He is The Messiah.
They certainly would not be trying to build another Temple, in hopes The messiah would come today.
Here is what happens when He returns from scripture.
3 And it shall happen in that day that I will make Jerusalem a very heavy stone for all peoples; all who would heave it away will surely be cut in pieces, though all nations of the earth are gathered against it. 4 In that day," says the Lord, "I will strike every horse with confusion, and its rider with madness; I will open My eyes on the house of Judah, and will strike every horse of the peoples with blindness. Zechariah 12:3-4
Did this happen in 70 AD? Did all the Roman get destroyed in 70 AD?
6 In that day I will make the governors of Judah like a firepan in the woodpile, and like a fiery torch in the sheaves; they shall devour all the surrounding peoples on the right hand and on the left, but Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place--Jerusalem. Zechariah 12:6
Did all the Jews rise up and destroy the Romans in 70 AD?
10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.
Did all the Jews see Jesus in 70 AD, and mourn for Him, as well as the whole nation of Israel. All Israel will see The Messiah when He comes.
Does all Israel believe and confess Him as Lord today?
How about this?
3 Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. 4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. 5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You. 6 It shall come to pass in that day That there will be no light; The lights will diminish. 7 It shall be one day Which is known to the Lord-- Neither day nor night. But at evening time it shall happen That it will be light. Zechariah 14:3-7
Did Jesus come and fight the Romans in 70 AD?
11 The people shall dwell in it; And no longer shall there be utter destruction, But Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. Zechariah 14:11
Is Jerusalem inhabited safely Today?
12 And this shall be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet, Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets, And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths. Zechariah 14:12
Did this happen to the Romans in 70 AD.
Were all the Romans soldiers destroyed in this manner?
The plain and simple truth is, Jesus has not returned, and The Resurrection of the dead is not past.
70 AD has nothing what so ever to do with the Great Tribulation, of the return of Jesus Christ or the resurrection of the dead.
Full Preterism is Heresy!
Plain and simple.
Those that teach it are leading people away from the truth.
JLB
I almost missed that one.
I exhort you to consider the time frame of when the book of Timothy was written versus the destruction of Jerusalem and the first resurrection in 70 A.D. I think you will find the 70 A.D. resurrection occurs after the book of Timothy was written.
Therefore, your accusation that I am causing people to stray from the truth is slander.
But I do appreciate you bringing this to light. Think about this:
If the resurrection was a thousand or more years in the future, do you think Paul would be getting to riled up about those making such claims?
No, he would mock them and say, "That is foolish. The resurrection will not occur until long after our bones are "dust in the wind," or some other metaphor.
Dan
Do you understand these clear and plain words from the scripture that occur exactly three verses after your passage?
“Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.” (Matthew 24:34)
Jesus was speaking to his disciples.
JLB, you don't know who Jesus was dealing with in those days. Those crazy, stiff-necked people saw Jesus perform miracle after miracle, and how did they explain it?
"He [Jesus] hath a devil!"
When Jesus labeled them the "children of the devil," He was being kind. They were stiff-necked, insolent, and downright vicious, beyond a normal person's imagination. And it was in their blood. I’ll explain.
Recall what their ancestors (about half of them) did after seeing and experiencing a series of breathtaking miracles just prior to and after their departure from Egypt, including the parting of the Red Sea and Manna from Heaven. They broke their first covenant with God--a blood covenant--before the "ink" was dry, and turned to idols and all sorts of immoral behaviour.
The Old Testament is not the proverbial "Love Story," as some pretend. Rather it records the long struggle God had trying to keep those “devils” from causing too much damage.
Also recall that only those with potential to follow Christ—those with good hearts—were considered to be part of the election, or “remnant.” That is not in the scripture directly, but surmised from these, and many others like them:
“This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me” (Matthew 15:8)
“A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.” (Luke 6:45)
JLB, you really don't know who Jesus was dealing with. But I suggest you learn before you repeat such naive statements as those above.
No, but it happened to the Jewish armies, and to the three Jewish factions that were in a civil war with each other inside the city walls (recall from Rev 16:19, “the great city was divided into three parts”.)
The abominations of those three factions were far worse than anything the Roman Armies did. In fact, Josephus, a Jewish priest, who interceded for the poor Jewish people inside the city who were subject to the brutality and famine caused by the leadership of the three factions, claimed that God sent the Roman Armies to destroy the city for its sins. This came from an Orthodox Jewish priest. Not from a Christian. Jesus also prophesied, in the Parable of the Wedding, that God would send his armies against Jerusalem (Matt 2:2-13.)
New Jerusalem is, and has been since Zechariah 14 was fulfilled about 2000 years ago. New Jerusalem is also called the heavenly Church:
"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant..." (Hebrews 12:22-24)
Zechariah 14 also foretold the Day of Pentecost:
"And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be." (Zechariah 14:8)
The Roman soldiers were not the targets of God’s wrath. They were God’s Army fighting the evil of Jerusalem.
I would not take Zechariah too literally, or you might end up as crazy as John Hagee.
This prophecy was fulfilled when the soldier pierced Jesus with his spear:
“But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.” (John 19:34-37)
Scofield lied about this verse in Zechariah by claiming it would happen in the future.
LOL! That is one of Crazy Hagee’s favourites! I would not take that too literally.
The rules are:
1. Take the New Testament literally, whenever possible.
2. Interpret the Old Testament prophecies, from Moses to Malachi, to fit the New Testament.
Then you will understand.
I am not a full Preterist, so I am in the clear. (Thank God!
)I would not go so far as to call Dispensationalists' Heretics, but it is tempting.
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Deborah13
Member
JLB,
I don't mean this disrespectfully in any way, but the "case" has not been "closed" for 2000 years, and your arguments are woefully weak to close the case at the present time.
If you read verse 24 very carefully, you will find the destruction of 66-70 A.D. is the "result" of the 70 weeks. The 70 weeks were "determined" to "finish the transgression," not to issue out the punishment. The punishment came later, which was the destruction of Jerusalem and many other Israeli cities.
Look at it another way (verse 25from the commandment to restore Jerusalem until the Messiah were 69 weeks (7 + 62 weeks.) The Messiah's ministry, which began "after" or "at the end of" 69 weeks, was a half-a-week (or 3.5 years,) at which time he was "cut off," or "executed." (verse 26) Now we are at sixty-nine and a half weeks (which is "after" 69 weeks.)
Verse 27 is simply a "repeat" of verse 26 with a few more details. After half-a week ("in the midst of the week", or 3.5 years) Christ shed his blood and the veil was torn, resulting in the cessation of the daily sacrifice and oblation, at least in a manner sanctioned by God (I believe the sacrifice and oblation were continued "ceremonially" until Titus' Roman armies forced their cessation.)
Since it took 70 weeks to finish the transgression, and we are a half-a-week short, I suspect the remaining half-week was finished by the blasphemy against Stephen's words (blasphemy against the Holy Ghost,) and by his death by stoning.
I have no scriptural evidence whatsoever of that interpretation for the "last half-week." It is pure speculation. Hopefully someone on this forum can provide some scripture.
I am reasonably certain of is the seventy weeks were "determined" 3.5 years after Christ was crucified. I am also reasonably certain that 70 weeks is exactly 70 weeks.
I am very certain 70 weeks is not 69 weeks, plus an indeterminate period of time, plus another week. That makes absolutely no sense. I cannot even imagine the mind that thought it up.
Dan
Yup
Deborah13
Member
Yes, the generation that sees "these things".
34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. Matthew 24:34
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Were these things seen by that Generation? NO!!!
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Were these things seen by that generation?
31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Yes Jesus was teaching His Disciples, what signs would preceed His Coming and the end of the age.
He was also teaching us, as well as all who would read the words of the Bible.
37 And what I say to you, I say to all: Watch!" Mark 13:37
The Generation that sees these signs, which include the things in Daniel 9:27, as referenced by Jesus.
"Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matthew 24:15,21
The Great Tribulation will take place when the Abomination of Desolation is set up in the soon to be built Temple.
We will see it!
JLB
12 And this shall be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet, Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets, And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths. Zechariah 14:12
This scripture clearly says this will happen to those who fight against Jerusalem.
This did not happen to the Roman soldiers.
This scripture has not been fulfilled yet.
This scripture will be fulfilled at the end of the age when Jesus Comes in power and Glory and all will see Him.
as it is written -
"And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.
Zechariah refers to the end of the age, at The Messiahs Return!
JLB
Did you know that a comet appeared in Israel in 60 A.D., and Halley's comet appeared in 66 A.D.? An eclipse would explain the sun and moon. Pliny wrote of one that occurred in Campania in 59 A.D. Josephus wrote the following eye-witness account of some strange events at Jerusalem:
"Thus there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year. Thus also before the Jews' rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus,784 [Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour. " [Wars of the Jews, VI.5.3]
Jesus said they would be seen by that generation--and I believe Him! Do you not believe the plain words of Jesus? I would recommend you take the words of Jesus over Cyrus Scofield every time.
The parallel verse in Luke is:
"And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring." (Luke 21:25)
In addition to the verse you quoted, guess what happened after the following event in Joel?
"The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:" (Joel 2:10)
That is somewhat similar to Matt 24:29, the verse you quoted. Would you agree? Well, the verse in Joel occurred before the Day of Pentecost in his book; but in Acts, Peter said it would occur afterward:
"But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:" (Acts 2:16)
You have yet to figure out that the "great and notable day of the Lord" was the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., which was a major theme of Jesus' prophecy.
Isaiah wrote similar things in "the burden of Babylon:"
"Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. . . Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger." (Isaiah 13:9-10-13)
Those events occurred before the destruction of Babylon:
"And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah." (Isaiah 13:19)
One would think that when the "earth removed out of her place" it would have been noticed by at least a few historians.
It appears many Dispensationalists are hopelessly lost in their arbitrary symbolism.
They were mostly symbolic, JLB.
JLB, you have completely misinterpreted Daniel, as I clearly explained to you before. Also, the parallel verse in Luke to the verse you quoted is:
"And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh." (Luke 21:20)
Jesus gave both statements to his disciples while they were on Mount Olive. The Abomination of Desolation occurred when the Roman Armies set foot on the soil of the holy city Jerusalem.
And I don't see anything in the verses you quoted about a third temple. Would you please show me, precisely, where in the scripture the rebuilding of the temple--the third temple occurs?
Don't bother. I know you cannot show me, because the third temple is not in the scripture. There were all sorts of scripture written about the second temple, after the return from Babylon, but not so much as a whisper about the third, except in the imagination of those like Darby and Scofield.
Scofield/Darby made up the "prophecy" of the third temple. They are FALSE PROPHETS! The third temple cannot be found anywhere in the scripture without spiritualizing, which is exactly what you doing.
jasoncran
Member
I amil. post mil means that the end is for some time after, show me where the end of occurred? and the judgement? it would if literally taken have to be in 1070 ad.
I also try to fit it what is possible literally but since you said the chialism is literal then
ok so the rcc and the church in this thousand years of peace and binding of satan didn't deceive men to kill jewish Christians and also other heinous acts that sadly happened then? what about the manner of additional doctrines that the rcc added in that are questionable in that period? what about the first crusade?
which occurred in that time frame?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades
whom was the primary church then? the rcc.
edited the time from 1170 to 1070.!
so how could the church be so godly and then go south in twenty years?
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JLB, I really feel saddened for you. You have let a charlatan, convicted felon, wife and child deserter, and fake doctor---named Cyrus Scofield!--- or one of his disciples, like John Hagee, deceive you!
Not just deceive you, but deceive you to the point of believing their interpretation of the scripture to the plain words of both Jesus and John!
This is my last post to you. You are hopelessly lost in their arbitrary literalism/symbolism of dispensationalism, and I don't know how to get through to you.
God bless you.
Dan
Jason, before I reply, where are you coming from? Are you pre-mil, post-mil, dispensationalist, what?