Redirectionalism

[Dan00]

LOL you do not realize you are being inconsistent? There is nothing I can say, I am speechless.

Just show me (in the scriptures) where I am inconsistent, and I will be eternally grateful. I am not being facetious.

Dan

 

[donald perry]

No Dan, I do not quote from the NKJV.


Matt. 19:4-6 “The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? 4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, [5] And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? [6] Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.” 7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? [8] He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. [9] And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery. [10] His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry. “

 

[donald perry]

you say the millennium is not here yet, but we are in the New Jerusalem.Inconsistent.
you say the resurrection is in the past and you still believe in the second coming? Inconsistent.

 

[Dan00]

"Therefore, I believe the Day of Pentecost occurred after the "new heaven and new earth" part of Rev 21:1 had already been fulfilled. Think about it. Suddenly, normal people with a decent heart had access to something absolutely amazing that was virtually unheard of before the Day of Pentecost. That, to me, is the New Heaven and New Earth."

The New Heavens and Earth, the defeat of Satan come after the Millennium, right now your are inconsistent and your system is contradicting itself. Thank you Jesus I am not a Preterist ... like other men.

EDITED I will repost exactly what I wrote so that others may see what you are referring to:

[Begin excerpt from #144]

One other point: Revelation 22 is not significant to my interpretation, from a time perspective. It is likely the pouring out of the Holy Spirit from the Day of Pentecost forward is the result of the fulfillment of this reference to the holy city, New Jerusalem:

"And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb." (Revelation 22:1)

Recall that Jesus spake of "living water" in this manner:

"He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water." (John 7:38)

The context, provided in the next verse, points to the Day of Pentecost:

"(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)" (John 7:39)

I doubt there is any difference between the river of water of life and rivers of living water. Both are "healing streams."

Therefore, I believe the Day of Pentecost occurred after the "new heaven and new earth" part of Rev 21:1 had already been fulfilled. Think about it. Suddenly, normal people with a decent heart had access to something absolutely amazing that was virtually unheard of before the Day of Pentecost. That, to me, is the New Heaven and New Earth.

There are also a couple of references in the Old Testament where Israel rejected the Fountain of Living Waters. This is one:
Jeremiah 13:17 O Lord, the hope of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the Lord, the fountain of living waters.

Is that the same as rejecting the Holy Spirit?

[End excerpt from #144]

Don, I cannot find anything wrong with what I wrote.

You, on the other hand, have absolutely no scriptural proof of one of your two assumptions:

"The New Heavens and Earth, . . . come after the Millennium. . ."


Dan

 

[jasoncran]

There is a minor problem, however. Satan was loosed for a "little season." I decided the best way to interpret that was the way it was interpreted in the rest of the scripture other than the Relevation: Here it is:

[Blank]






prayer in school isn't banned. its the government that isn't allowed to have sanctioned prayer. know the difference. a child can pray to himself in school and out loud, that wasn't banned. I know teachers who are Christians who have said that..


THAT STILL doesn't deal with that if you take that literally then what about the man Justin martyr who was disciple of the man whom john taught the chialsim. the early church very much believe in the chialism was yet to come according martyr. he was writing his letter after 30 years after ad 70. im not a futurist but if you take it literally satan was placed where then? and abyss then and realeased when? after the 1070? ok so the attack on the city is still going on?

so its blame the jews for that? really the jews didn't believe in the moshiac then. its said before rashi believed.

CHAPTER LXVIII -- HE COMPLAINS OF THE OBSTINACY OF TRYPHO; HE ANSWERS HIS OBJECTION; HE CONVICTS THE JEWS OF BAD FAITH.

And Trypho said, "You endeavour to prove an incredible and well-nigh impossible thing;[namely], that God endured to be born and become man."

"If I undertook," said I, "to prove this by doctrines or arguments of man, you should not bear with me. But if I quote frequently Scriptures, and so many of them, referring to this point, and ask you to comprehend them, you are hard-hearted in the recognition of the mind and will of God. But if you wish to remain for ever so, I would not be injured at all; and for ever retaining the same[opinions] which I had before I met with you, I shall leave you."

And Trypho said," Look, my friend, you made yourself master of these[truths] with much labour and toil. And we accordingly must diligently scrutinize all that we meet with, in order to give our assent to those things which the Scriptures compel us[to believe]."

Then I said to this, "I do not ask you not to strive earnestly by all means, in making an investigation of the matters inquired into; but[I ask you], when you have nothing to say, not to contradict those things which you said you had admitted."

And Trypho said, "So we shall endeavour to do."

I continued again: "In addition to the questions I have just now put to you, I wish to put more: for by means of these questions I shall strive to bring the discourse to a speedy termination."

And Trypho said, "Ask the questions."

Then I said, "Do you think that any other one is said to be worthy of worship and called Lord and God in the Scriptures, except the Maker of all, and Christ, who by so many Scriptures was proved to you to have become man?"

And Trypho replied, "How can we admit this, when we have instituted so great an inquiry as to whether there is any other than the Father alone?"

Then I again said, "I must ask you this also, that I may know whether or not you are of a different opinion from that which you admitted some time ago."

He replied, "It is not, sir."

Then again I, "Since you certainly admit these things, and since Scripture says, 'Who shall declare His generation?' ought you not now to suppose that He is not the seed of a human race?"

And Trypho said, "How then does the Word say to David, that out of his loins God shall take to Himself a Son, and shall establish His kingdom, and shall set Him on the throne of His glory?"

And I said, "Trypho, if the prophecy which Isaiah uttered, "Behold, the virgin shall conceive,' is said not to the house of David, but to another house of the twelve tribes, perhaps the matter would have some difficulty; but since this prophecy refers to the house of David, Isaiah has explained how that which was spoken by God to David in mystery would take place. But perhaps you are not aware of this, my friends, that there were many sayings written obscurely, or parabolically, or mysteriously, and symbolical actions, which the prophets who lived after the persons who said or did them expounded." "Assuredly," said Trypho.

"If therefore, I shall show that this prophecy of Isaiah refers to our Christ, and not to Hezekiah, as you say, shall I not in this matter, too,

compel you not to believe your teachers, who venture to assert that the explanation which your seventy elders that were with Ptolemy the king of the Egyptians gave, is untrue in certain respects? For some statements in the Scriptures, which appear explicitly to convict them of a foolish and vain opinion, these they venture to assert have not been so written. But other statements, which they fancy they can distort and harmonize with human actions, these, they say, refer not to this Jesus Christ of ours, but to him of whom they are pleased to explain them. Thus, for instance, they have taught you that this Scripture which we are now discussing refers to Hezekiah, in which, as I promised, I shall show they are wrong. And since they are compelled, they agree that some Scriptures which we mention to them, and which expressly prove that Christ was to suffer, to be worshipped, and[to be called] God, and which I have already recited to you, do refer indeed to Christ, but they venture to assert that this man is not Christ. But they admit that He will come to suffer, and to reign, and to be worshipped, and to be God; and this opinion I shall in like manner show to be ridiculous and silly. But since I am pressed to answer first to what was said by you in jest, I shall make answer to it, and shall afterwards give replies to what follows.

 

[jasoncran]

CHAPTER LXXX -- THE OPINION OF JUSTIN WITH REGARD TO THE REIGN OF A THOUSAND YEARS. SEVERAL CATHOLICS REJECT IT.

And Trypho to this replied, "I remarked to you sir, that you are very anxious to be safe in all respects, since you cling to the Scriptures. But tell me, do you really admit that this place, Jerusalem, shall be rebuilt; and do you expect your people to be gathered together, and made joyful with Christ and the patriarchs, and the prophets, both the men of our nation, and other proselytes who joined them before your Christ came? or have you given way, and admitted this in order to have the appearance of worsting us in the controversies?"

Then I answered, "I am not so miserable a fellow, Trypho, as to say one thing and think another. I admitted to you formerly, that I and many others are of this opinion, and[believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise. Moreover, I pointed out to you that some who are called Christians, but are godless, impious heretics, teach doctrines that are in every way blasphemous, atheistical, and foolish. But that you may know that I do not say this before you alone, I shall draw up a statement, so far as I can, of all the arguments which have passed between us; in which I shall record myself as admitting the very same things which I admit to you. For I choose to follow not men or men's doctrines, but God and the doctrines[delivered] by Him. For if you have fallen in with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit this[truth], and venture to blaspheme the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; who say there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven; do not imagine that they are Christians, even as one, if he would rightly consider it, would not admit that the Sadducees, or similar sects of Genist , Meristae,Gelilaeans, Hellenists, Pharisees, Baptists, are Jews(do not hear me impatiently when I tell you what I think), but are[only] called Jews and children of Abraham, worshipping God with the lips, as God Himself declared, but the heart was far from Him. But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare

now then I have read ramban on a great deal. he died denying the messiah was born long after rashi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rambam if he disagreed with rashi he would quote him where he did. show me the book where he said that. ramban did write his commentary on all the books of the tanach and all but the torah are gone. the Chassidic jews quote ramban and rashi. rashi on the tanach is a link to where one can see his view. the jews depending on whom they quote believe in two messiahs. one the son of joseph and the son of david. they taught this. my dad is a jew. he was taught that.

 

[donald perry]

Dan, did you say that we went though the millennium already? I thought you said that you do not see Satan as having been bound. Where is satan now? Is he bound?

 

[Dan00]

prayer in school isn't banned. its the government that isn't allowed to have sanctioned prayer.

THAT STILL doesn't deal with that if you take that literally then what about the man Justin martyr who was disciple of the man whom john taught the chialsim. the early church very much believe in the chialism was yet to come according martyr. he was writing his letter after 30 years after ad 70. im not a futurist but if you take it literally satan was placed where then? and abyss then and realeased when? after the 1070? ok so the attack on the city is still going on?

I do not understand what you are saying, and I do not want to guess and be wrong. Can you rewrite it?

so its blame the jews for that? really the jews didn't believe in the moshiac then. its said before rashi believed.

I believe you are having trouble reading what I write, Jason. I did not blame the Jews, as a race. I am a "Jew," except that my ancestors converted to Christianity. All my remarks targeted the leadership, as did Isaiah and Jesus. So don't try to smear me with an anti-semitic label.

As you may already be aware, if a "Jew" converts to Christianity, the "Jew" is no longer a "Jew." He is a Christian in the eyes of Christians, and he has committed the unpardonable sin in the eyes of Pharisaic Judaism. edited

It would also be helpful if you go back and re-read what I wrote. Be certain you read the words of Christ that I quoted.

Dan

 

[Dan00]

Dan, did you say that we went though the millennium already? I thought you said that you do not see Satan as having been bound. Where is satan now? Is he bound?

Don, I have already, on multiple occasions, and in many different ways, wrote where I believe we currently are in the scheme of things. I believe you can read all my posts, from last to first, here:

http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?search/24927/

 

[Deborah13]

Don, I have already, on multiple occasions, and in many different ways, wrote where I believe we currently are in the scheme of things. I believe you can read all my posts, from last to first, here:

http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?search/24927/

Dan, This link gives me an error message. Which forum, end times, preterist?
Thanks

 

[jasoncran]

yes I do. so you wouldn't let a muslim pray would you? what about a jew? if we allow one Christian in office to pray using his position then all must or none. the first admendment allows the government to be neutral. removing of the prayer from the teachers cant stop one from praying. how would one know if one does it silence? I don't have to pray out loud to god all the time. seldom do I. where the aclu goes to far is stopping the students from doing that themselves. no one is forcing the students to listen to them.


the army has chaplains other then Christians btw and they are allowed to pray while holding service. no we soldiers are allowed to pray.

the jews today believe in the moshiac having two natures.

one is the son of david for isreal and the son of joseph for Judah. ben joseph will yield to the son of david who will unit all of isreal and restore isreal in the messianic age. so this is what ramban taught

http://www.moshiach.com/questions/topten/what_is_moshiach_ben_yosef.php

http://judaismsanswer.com/yosef.htm
http://www.chabad.org/library/moshiach/article_cdo/aid/101747/jewish/Appendix-II.htm
either way they see ben joseph as one who suffers. of course, I never said that you were anti-semetic. the jews as I have shown believe in two messiahs. ramban whom you mentioned does.the jews were murdered in mass by chrisitian in mass. I call the jews today I quote anti-christs. both rashi and ramban were. but the idea that the jews did that to the isiah 53 isn't new and was done long before the man rashi appeared. rashi merely restated what the jews taught as he unified them on the tanach. they had a ton of beliefs on things and he stepped up and unified them. I asked about ramban because I read him a lot and he will have quoted why rashi was right or wrong. in genesis he quotes rashi a lot and disagrees almost all the time.

jews to expect them to believe in the idea of our messiah is a bit much. what I meant was the fact that the early. church believed in the chialism and the early jews before Christ taught as such. good luck.http://www.lessonsonline.info/MillennialismEarly.htm

 

[Dan00]

Dan, This link gives me an error message. Which forum, end times, preterist?
Thanks

Deborah,

Those are my posts, but maybe that link only applies to me. Try clicking on my name, the hit the "Postings" tab. See if that works.

Dan

 

[Deborah13]

Deborah,

Those are my posts, but maybe that link only applies to me. Try clicking on my name, the hit the "Postings" tab. See if that works.

Dan

No, what happens is a page comes up that shows the top (header) of a normal page and the bottom of the page (contact us, Top etc), no middle section. There isn't even any scroll bar on the right side.

so I've read a lot of your posts, maybe all of them, just checking.

 

[Dan00]

No, what happens is a page comes up that shows the top (header) of a normal page and the bottom of the page (contact us, Top etc), no middle section. There isn't even any scroll bar on the right side.

so I've read a lot of your posts, maybe all of them, just checking.

Try clicking on my name on this post.

When I click on your name, on any post, it brings up a tabbed menu of your posts.

 

[Deborah13]

Try clicking on my name on this post.

When I click on your name, on any post, it brings up a tabbed menu of your posts.

Got it, thanks.

 

[Dan00]

yes I do. so you wouldn't let a muslim pray would you? what about a jew? if we allow one Christian in office to pray using his position then all must or none. the first admendment allows the government to be neutral. removing of the prayer from the teachers cant stop one from praying. how would one know if one does it silence? I don't have to pray out loud to god all the time. seldom do I. where the aclu goes to far is stopping the students from doing that themselves. no one is forcing the students to listen to them.

Comment deleted

Where did you get the notion the First Amendment was neutral? That is a modern invention of the ACLU (Judaism) and the ADL (Judaism.) They are very dangerous organizations, and should never be trusted to do the right thing, even when it appears to be right. They always have ulterior motives.

This is what the Father of Our Country had to say about your "interpretation:"

"With slight shades of difference, you have the same Religeon, Manners, Habits & political Principles." (George Washington, Farewell Address, September 19,1796)

Only a liar would claim that Judaism was a "slight shade of difference?" Judaism is a religion of Anti-Christ, by definition:

"Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son." (1 John 2:22)

Even Orthodox Jew and Rabbi Daniel Lapin recognizes the significance of this part of the Constitution:

"If any Bill shall not be returned by the President within ten Days (Sundays excepted). . ."

One of the first official Acts of the House of Representatives and the Senate in 1789 was to establish the Office of Chaplain, and there was never a doubt what religion the chaplains would be. This is a list of the chaplains of the House and Senate from the beginning, all Christian:

http://chaplain.house.gov/chaplaincy/history.html
http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/common/briefing/Senate_Chaplain.htm

And, there is this pesky little tidbit at the end of the Constitution:

"... by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven."

Lord? Beginning in Year 0 A.D.? Guess who that is?

I went to public school in the 1950's and 60's, and every week, in every school, we held a Christian religious service; the same way it was held in every public school from the beginning of public schools in America. All my teachers were Christian. That only changed when the Antichrist religion of Judaism placed its bloody hands on our Constitution.

Dan

 

[Deborah13]

Jason, that is so blatantly inaccurate and deceitful, I am almost convinced you are not a Christian.

Where did you get the notion the First Amendment was neutral? That is a modern invention of the ACLU (Judaism) and the ADL (Judaism.) They are very dangerous organizations, and should never be trusted to do the right thing, even when it appears to be right. They always have ulterior motives.

This is what the Father of Our Country had to say about your "interpretation:"

"With slight shades of difference, you have the same Religeon, Manners, Habits & political Principles." (George Washington, Farewell Address, September 19,1796)

Only a liar would claim that Judaism was a "slight shade of difference?" Judaism is a religion of Anti-Christ, by definition:

"Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son." (1 John 2:22)

Even Orthodox Jew and Rabbi Daniel Lapin recognizes the significance of this part of the Constitution:

"If any Bill shall not be returned by the President within ten Days (Sundays excepted). . ."

One of the first official Acts of the House of Representatives and the Senate in 1789 was to establish the Office of Chaplain, and there was never a doubt what religion the chaplains would be. This is a list of the chaplains of the House and Senate from the beginning, all Christian:

http://chaplain.house.gov/chaplaincy/history.html
http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/common/briefing/Senate_Chaplain.htm

And, there is this pesky little tidbit at the end of the Constitution:

"... by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven."

Lord? Beginning in Year 0 A.D.? Guess who that is?

I went to public school in the 1950's and 60's, and every week, in every school, we held a Christian religious service; the same way it was held in every public school from the beginning of public schools in America. All my teachers were Christian. That only changed when the Antichrist religion of Judaism placed its bloody hands on our Constitution.

Dan

I went to school in New England, USA, in the 1950 and 60's. I lived in a patriotic state much more so the Colorado, where I live now.
We said the Pledge and said the Lord's Prayer every morning but we never had any Christian religious services.
My husband grew up in Colorado, in a very small town, ranching community. They said the Pledge but never prayed in school.

 

[jasoncran]

I went to school in New England, USA, in the 1950 and 60's. I lived in a patriotic state much more so the Colorado, where I live now.
We said the Pledge and said the Lord's Prayer every morning but we never had any Christian religious services.
My husband grew up in Colorado, in a very small town, ranching community. They said the Pledge but never prayed in school.

Im not that old but I do remember the same. I was a jw then.

now then I never said nor implied all that you have said. attack my arguments not me. you have been reported. I never said that we should block our Christian heritage only that the government because of plain reading of the constution as it says(one need not be a lawyer to see this) is that it must allow all faiths to pray if they so desire. and also do the same as the Christians did in schools if that is the case. that is first time hearing that.

 

[Dan00]

I went to school in New England, USA, in the 1950 and 60's. I lived in a patriotic state much more so the Colorado, where I live now.
We said the Pledge and said the Lord's Prayer every morning but we never had any Christian religious services.
My husband grew up in Colorado, in a very small town, ranching community. They said the Pledge but never prayed in school.

Deborah,

The Lord's Prayer is a no-no, now. Even the Pledge is being assaulted.

It was, in the beginning, the prerogative of each state, via the 10th Amendment, to create its own constitutions and laws; except for the few powers given to the federal government, and a few laws that were specifically forbidden, such as Bills of Attainder. The federal government has usurped almost all those powers from the states.

Some of the earlier state constitutions specifically declared Christianity as the state religion. This an excellent general statement of those times, from an excellent historical article on Christianity and the Constitution:

"Now, the peoples of the several states were not of an indeterminate religious, cultural, and ethical background, profession, or belief. They were not—by any stretch of the imagination—either religiously, culturally, and ethically “neutral” or secularist. Nor were they to any significant—much less dominant—degree rationalistic, deistic, or what would later be called Unitarian in their religious, ethical, educational, legal or political professions and values. The peoples or societies of the several states were distinctly Christian and Protestant in their religious profession, culture (or subcultures), ethical and moral values, education, laws, and politics." [Christianity, Our Early State Constitutions, and American Federalism, p.2, par.5]

http://www.contra-mundum.org/cm/features/10_Jones.pdf

Dan

 

[reba]

WOW i see the sweetness of the preterest forum is opened again.... My head is spinning trying to read this... We are brothers and sisters in the Lord, although our views may not be exactly alike. There will be some editing done. Any more of this kind of ugliness and point warnings will result...
A couple points of the Terms of Service you have agreed to...

7) Do not post opinions of another member's claim of Christian faith.
Publicly judging someone as not being a Christian and/or not following Christ unless they themselves claim not be a Christian is disallowed. That's between them and the Lord. This includes judgments against collective beliefs or groups in general.

ToS 2.4
Such remarks, thinly veiled, are not permissible. Consider this an official warning. ADMIN