Refuting Preterism

[Stormcrow]

Jesus Christ is the truth! He can not lie, you just simply misunderstand what He said.

I'm not the one misunderstanding anything here.

Why is "every eye" literal to you but "soon" and "at hand" are not?

Why is a day like a thousand years to you when it comes to eschatology, but only 24 hours long when Christ was in the grave?

Why is "all creation" plants, hills, worms, and kittens to you in Romans 8 when the same Greek words clearly refer to mankind in Mark 16 and Colossians 1???

Any "major doctrinal truth" that has to play so fast and loose with the language is not truth.

 

[Tri Unity]

No its not but its more than enough to stump you...

Are you kidding? You sound like you are playing junenile games of contradicting everything that is said. Pretersim has been judged as heresy by the churches for 2000 years. Why would we overturn 2000 years of church doctrine and now follow a heresy? Nowhere in the 2nd century did any christian believe that the end-time had already come. I know you say that your opinion is better than theirs, and that you follow the scriptures; but you are only decieving yourself. Give it a rest; preterism is not a Christian teaching.

 

[Jock]

Are you kidding? You sound like you are playing junenile games of contradicting everything that is said. Pretersim has been judged as heresy by the churches for 2000 years. Why would we overturn 2000 years of church doctrine and now follow a heresy? Nowhere in the 2nd century did any christian believe that the end-time had already come. I know you say that your opinion is better than theirs, and that you follow the scriptures; but you are only decieving yourself. Give it a rest; preterism is not a Christian teaching.

That is true.

Here is what the preterist does--

2Ti 2:14



Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, to the subverting of the hearers.
2Ti 2:15



Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Ti 2:16



But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
2Ti 2:17



And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18






Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
Jock

 

[Jock]

Hmmm what does God mean when He says?;


1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.


Come on its only two 'simple' verses. No problem for a scholar like you, after all you and I both know your not really a literalist.

Try--

Rev 22:10

And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
Rev 22:11

He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:14

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15

For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Rev 22:16

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
Rev 22:17

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Rev 22:18

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Rev 22:20

He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
Rev 22:21

The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

Jock

 

[Hitch]

Try--

Rev 22:10

And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
Rev 22:11

He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12

And, behold, I come quickly; and my rewardiswith me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:14

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15

For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Rev 22:16

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David,andthe bright and morning star.
Rev 22:17

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Rev 22:18

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Rev 22:20

He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
Rev 22:21

The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

Jock

Well I cant imagine what your point is but it is obvious you have nothing to answer with regarding R 1;1-3.

But that leaves me wondering why you fail to believe what He said in the passages you quoted?

 

[Hitch]

Are you kidding? You sound like you are playing junenile games of contradicting everything that is said. Pretersim has been judged as heresy by the churches for 2000 years. Why would we overturn 2000 years of church doctrine and now follow a heresy? Nowhere in the 2nd century did any christian believe that the end-time had already come. I know you say that your opinion is better than theirs, and that you follow the scriptures; but you are only decieving yourself. Give it a rest; preterism is not a Christian teaching.

Perhaps you misunderstood, the question is based on this reference from J below in red, my response in the quote box:



When God says every eye will see Him, that is what He means.

Hmmm what does God mean when He says?;


1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

If you dont care to answer the question thats fine but making personal attacks against me shows poor judgment.

If you are correct you should have no trouble answering the question posted.

 

[precepts]

1. There are serious deficiencies in Preterist teachings, any one of which causes the doctrine to collapse. Allow us to share one, as follows:

2. Revelation 16:12-16 describes how the Battle of Armageddon will commence (or how it did commence - allegedly). So, here is our first question: Who conquered Jerusalem in fulfillment of this prophecy and from where did they come?

3. The Preterist position teaches that this prophecy was fulfilled in the year 70 A.D. when the Roman General Titus and his Roman army conquered Jerusalem.

4. But Rome is virtually due WEST of Jerusalem and the prophecy (Rev 16:12) says that the Euphrates was dried up so that the kings of the EAST could be prepared to make war against Jerusalem at Armageddon.

5. The core teachings of Preterism collapse completely on this passage alone, and make further questions on the matter superfluous.

[Credit and thanks to Irvin Baxter for presenting this line of reasoning.]

Ive presented this question awhile back,maybe I can get an answer this time.........​

This whole thread collaspes on you misinterpreting scripture. Rev 16:12 has nothing to do with Rome!

 

[precepts]

Book 3

Containing the Interval of About One Year. From Vespasian's Coming To Subdue the Jews To the Taking of Gamala.
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Chapter 1[/FONT]

Vespasian Is Sent Into Syria By Nero In Order To Make War With the Jews.

Upon the whole, he [Nero] sent this man [Vespasian] to take upon him the command of the armies that were in Syria...

So Vespasian sent his son Titus from Achaia, where he had been with Nero, to Alexandria, to bring back with him from thence the fifth and. the tenth legions, while he himself, when he had passed over the Hellespont, came by land into Syria, where he gathered together the Roman forces, with a considerable number of auxiliaries from the kings in that neighborhood.

And now Vespasian took along with him his army from Antioch, (which is the metropolis of Syria, and without dispute deserves the place of the third city in the habitable earth that was under the Roman empire, both in magnitude, and other marks of prosperity,) where he found king Agrippa, with all his forces, waiting for his coming, and marched to Ptolemais.

At this city also the inhabitants of Sepphoris of Galilee met him, who were for peace with the Romans. These citizens had beforehand taken care of their own safety, and being sensible of the power of the Romans, they had been with Cestius Gallus before Vespasian came, and had given their faith to him, and received the security of his right hand, and had received a Roman garrison; and at this time withal they received Vespasian, the Roman general, very kindly, and readily promised that they would assist him against their own countrymen.

Now the general delivered them, at their desire, as many horsemen and footmen as he thought sufficient to oppose the incursions of the Jews, if they should come against them. And indeed the danger of losing Sepphoris would be no small one, in this war that was now beginning, seeing it was the largest city of Galilee, and built in a place by nature very strong, and might be a security of the whole nation's [fidelity to the Romans].

But as Vespasian had a great mind to fall upon Galilee, he marched out of Ptolemais, having put his army into that order wherein the Romans used to march.

And thus did Vespasian march with his army, and came to the bounds of Galilee, where he pitched his camp and restrained his soldiers, who were eager for war; he also showed his army to the enemy, in order to affright them, and to afford them a season for repentance, to see whether they would change their minds before it came to a battle, and at the same time he got things ready for besieging their strong minds.

(Vespasian marched his legions into Galilee from the north (Antioch) and took the cities of Gadara, Sepphoris, Jotapata, Joppa, Tiberias, and Gischala, among others.)

And thus was all Galilee taken, but this not till after it had cost the Romans much pains before it could be taken by them.

Flavius Josephus, Wars of the Jews

Here is a map of the Roman conquest of Israel, beginning with Vespasian's march out of Antioch:

http://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/images/assault_maps/assault-map_israel_01.jpg

Irvin Baxter is wrong. Vespasian and Titus marched their forces through Armageddon on their way to Jerusalem, encamping there along the way, thus fulfilling this prophecy:

And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon. Revelation 16:16 (NASB)

Don't be misled by so-called Bible scholars who make money from other people's ignorance.

And here is a map of Israel highlighting Antioch, from which Vespasian marched his armies into Judea:

http://tinyurl.com/6qvocet

Sure looks like his armies came out of the north to me!

Which is very interesting since you didn't mention the Roman civil war in 68 ad, the "Year of Four Emperors," according to history.

It's also interesting that Nero's death sparked this civil war that fits Revelation's account of "five are fallen, one is, and one is to come and continue a short space..," which is key to the time Revelation was written! Not to mention the Beast being the 8th biblical Roman King/horn and Vespasian, who destroyed the temple, was the 9th historical Roman Emperor. That's fascinating!

 

[precepts]

Okay,so much for directions....Let's try this one........

1 Thessalonians 4:14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


Where are these people?

1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

How many last trumps are there,and when is this change?

The 2nd and 3rd resurrections are identical in the form of a rapture. The 2nd is heavenly with the disciples as the reapers and the 3rd is earthly with the disciples and those that died in Christ, mainly the gentiles, as the reapers with the angels of course in both resurrections.

 

[precepts]

When did the below happen as per ad70

Revelation 11:8 "And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sod'-om and E'-gypt, where also our Lord was crucified."

Revelation 11:9 "And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves."

Revelation 11:10 "And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth."

Revelation 11:11 "And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them."

Revelation 11:12 "And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them."

If this question has already been answered,please direct me to where and I shall go from there,if not,please answer.......

That's because the two witnesses were Christ and John the Baptist!

Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

 

[precepts]

Hi,

Rev ch 16 could not have occured yet because just look at the text-

Rev 16:1


And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
Rev 16:2

And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
Rev 16:3

And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
Rev 16:4

And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
Rev 16:5

And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
Rev 16:6

For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
Rev 16:7

And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
Rev 16:8

And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
Rev 16:9

And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
Rev 16:10

And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
Rev 16:11

And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

Which has everything to do with the plagues in Egypt. It amazes me how anyone can try to disprove "preterism" without being able to interpret Revelation! That's just plain stupid.

Rev 16:12

And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

Which would equate to the fall of Babylon by Darius the Mede!

Rev 16:13

And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14

For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

The frogs in Egypt.

Rev 16:15

Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Was addressed to the disciples, that generation not passing away, and all others to present.

Rev 16:16

And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Rev 16:17

And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev 16:18

And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Rev 16:19

And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 16:20

And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
Rev 16:21

And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
Jock.

Which evidentally is the crucifixtion and resurrection into the heavenly Shalem for the heavenly war with the Beast and his armies!

 

[precepts]

Too true. The Preterist view is akin to Mormonism or Brittish Israelite doctrines. They were all developed near the 17th century; which says a lot. Like most modern sects and cults; they have introduced new doctrines that were totally foreign to Christians in all ages until 1600 years after Jerusalem was destroyed. Why would God only reveal this part of the picture to those of a minority sect 1600 years after the events? It doesn't make the slightest sense. A great can of worms was opened in the 16th and 17th centuries, and a lot of crazy ideas flooded the historical landscape. Preterism was one of them.

Preterists developed out of a false vision to unite Protestants and Catholics by claiming that the Antichrist had already come 30 years after the death of Christ. This view was intended to take the sting out of the Protestant claim that the Catholic Church was the Antichrist. It was developed by Catholic sympathisers and backed by Jesuits. Many people were duped into believing it just as people are duped in to any other wind of doctrine, whether it is Pharisaism; Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons.

I think it's the other way around. Your interpretation of Revelation is more fiction than fact, carnal, therefore antichrist.

 

[precepts]

I see a few newer faces here Welcome ....

I will say again there are differences in what is labled preterism here is the main one.
Orthodox preterism awaits his return,
Full preterism does not.

A christian that denies Christ's return?! That's ridiculous!

 

[precepts]

Preterism was a doctrine invented by the Catholics in the 17th century to dissuade Protestants from believing that the Catholic Church was the Antichrist.

Wikipedia:

‘The first systematic preterist teaching of prophecy was written in 1614 by the Spanish Jesuit Luisde Alcasar during the Counter Reformation. Alcasar's preterist interpretation was of considerable benefit to the Roman Catholic Church during its arguments with Protestants, and preterism has been described in modern eschatological commentary as a Catholic defense against the Protestant Historicist view which identified the Roman Catholic Church as a persecuting apostasy. Due to resistance by Protestant Historicists, the preterist view was slow to gain acceptance outside the Roman Catholic Church.’

It is not surprising that educated non-Catholics would be suspicious of such a doctrine as an introduced heresy. Mainstream Catholics themselves do not believe this doctrine; for it is only for the purpose of disrupting the historicist claims of Protestants. Most Protestants today have discarded historicism and returned to the futurist perspective of interpreting Revelation. However, there are still die hard religious hooligans that have always existed in the church under every denomination. They were the Huguenots and the Jacobins. These were the iconoclasts. They were the Herodians and zealots. These religious hooligans, who are a little worse than fanatics, are the trouble makers for the church everywhere; whether they are preterist; futurist or historicist. They have always stirred up the mob to frenzy to the end that fires are lit and crosses are carried. Be careful of the religious hooligan.

Tri

The Devil is a liar, friend! I didn't know such a word existed until I visited these sites with my new found understanding of scripture. I don't belong to any denomination, so your definition of Preterism has no affect on truth! The fact is all other interpretations of Revelation is carnal. Flesh and blood can never inherit the kingdom of God, which means neither will the earth!


KRS1
Keeper of Records and Seals

 

[Jock]

Preceps,

You did the best job of anyone to disprove preterism.

Jock

 

[reba]

Like in kindergarten it is time for a "time out". reba

 

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by reba
I see a few newer faces here Welcome ....

I will say again there are differences in what is labled preterism here is the main one.
Orthodox preterism awaits his return,
Full preterism does not.

A christian that denies Christ's return?! That's ridiculous!

Full preterism does not deny Christ's return. It does properly interpret His return as occurring before His disciples' generation had passed, while some of them still lived. It denies a "future" return for us, but it does not deny that He has returned, just as He said He would.

 

[Jock]

Full preterism does not deny Christ's return. It does properly interpret His return as occurring before His disciples' generation had passed, while some of them still lived. It denies a "future" return for us, but it does not deny that He has returned, just as He said He would.

Why did Christ return for if He returned in 70 Ad?

and where is he now?

 

[Stormcrow]

Why did Christ return for if He returned in 70 Ad?

Judge Israel and take the kingdom away from them.

and where is he now?

On His throne as head of the church and king of kings and Lord of Lords.

 

[Tri Unity]

Jesus is not only King of kings, Lord of lords - He is God of God, light from Light. Jesus does not rely on any bogus scriptural permission to become King. The time of His Second Coming will be when the entire earth will bow down before Him and recognise that He is King of kings. This obviously has not yet transpired.