Religion primarily seeks security.... not Truth.......

[antitox]

So this is mainstream Christianity, huh? No. It's catholicism. Shame..shame...shame.....there you go again. Trying to lump all religions together. Shame. You are wrong as the day is long. That's not what a Christians does. The Catholics (religion) may have done it, but not the Christians. This is what I thought you would do.

I just pointed out an organized religion that is Christian and did use their beliefs to kill Indians. You make your own conclusions.

You just said "Christians" again. It wasn't Christian. Christians don't worship Mary. Can you understand anything at all or did you insert some kind of atheist "filter" into your head? :o

[quote:81630]No, because you believe it without fail. You will fight for that position as hard as any believer. Therefore you are no different than a religious person who does the same thing. You're the same as they are.

With evidence, I would easily become a believer. So my stance on the issue could easily change if I saw some good proof.

Quath, you wouldn't believe any evidence or miracle if it ran you over on the highway and resurrected you.

One reason I don't count atheism as a religion is that there are no rules or common beliefs.

Oh yes there are common beliefs. Let me state the 10 commandments of atheism for you :-D :

1. No God, just a figment of brain cells.
2. No miracles. Everything's chemical. The red sea was only 2 feet deep.
3. Everybody's a good ol boy- everyone can be rehabilitated no matter how blatantly evil they are, and even satan too!
4. No one should have to do anything they don't want, after all we should be supported by the gov. (pass the joint please...)
5. Drugs, gay, and euthenasia is numero uno. Yipeee Kevorkian!
6. Abortion rules! Kill or chill.
7. The death penalty is evil. Give Scott a break. Oh wait...that's ok, he's got about twenty more years before we have to do anything. Let Manson out.
8. We must change history; start with the schools; wait... we already did that.....no...let's do it again.
9. More environmental controls; raise taxes, and throw as much money into education as is possible. Wait, we did that too, but...let's do it again anyway.
10. Christian message boards should not exist; let's crash the party.

The only thing that defines the people is that they don't believe in one thing. So it is not organized. Atheists believe whatever else they want to. It would be like organizing a group of people that didn't believe in Allah. This group could include Christians, atheists, Hindus and pagans. Yet I would not call this group a religion.

Quath

[/quote:81630]

Well think again because you guys believe most everything the same. In differing issues between you, I can assure you there are differing issues between people in Christianity too. You and Peace4all like to make bones about that all the time.

 

[Quath]

You just said "Christians" again. It wasn't Christian. Christians don't worship Mary. Can you understand anything at all or did you insert some kind of atheist "filter" into your head? :o

I find it funny that you think that Christianity did not appear until about 1500 years after Jesus was suppose to have existed. So I guess you disagree with historians that said that Constantine converted the Roman Empire to Christianity. I guess you disagree with all the Catholics that say they are Christian. I would say you are in the minority in the belief that Catholics are not Christians.

Oh yes there are common beliefs. Let me state the 10 commandments of atheism for you :-D :

1. No God, just a figment of brain cells.
2. No miracles. Everything's chemical. The red sea was only 2 feet deep.
3. Everybody's a good ol boy- everyone can be rehabilitated no matter how blatantly evil they are, and even satan too!
4. No one should have to do anything they don't want, after all we should be supported by the gov. (pass the joint please...)
5. Drugs, gay, and euthenasia is numero uno. Yipeee Kevorkian!
6. Abortion rules! Kill or chill.
7. The death penalty is evil. Give Scott a break. Oh wait...that's ok, he's got about twenty more years before we have to do anything. Let Manson out.
8. We must change history; start with the schools; wait... we already did that.....no...let's do it again.
9. More environmental controls; raise taxes, and throw as much money into education as is possible. Wait, we did that too, but...let's do it again anyway.
10. Christian message boards should not exist; let's crash the party.

I would agree with you on the first two but not on the rest. There are some common beliefs that people come to when you don't have dogma dictating your thoughts. For example, gay rights are usually agreed on by atheists because there is no real reason outside of religion not to give them rights. But that is due to some common thinking, not really a common reason atheists group together.

Well think again because you guys believe most everything the same. In differing issues between you, I can assure you there are differing issues between people in Christianity too. You and Peace4all like to make bones about that all the time.

That is true. But it just means organized religion makes more sense on the denomination level rather than the all encompasing "Christian" label.

Quath

 

[antitox]

I find it funny that you think that Christianity did not appear until about 1500 years after Jesus was suppose to have existed. So I guess you disagree with historians that said that Constantine converted the Roman Empire to Christianity. I guess you disagree with all the Catholics that say they are Christian. I would say you are in the minority in the belief that Catholics are not Christians.

What you refuse to accept is that protestants and catholics are not the same. They do not believe the same. They do not worship the same. Catholics who realized things were not biblical and that idol worship existed in their form of worship had to make a break from the Catholic church and realized that Jesus was the central figure of their worship, not Mary. Now you will probably lump everyone together irregardless, as you normally do, but it is obvious that you do not make proper distinctions in this because it is your intent to discredit, defile, and re-interpret historical occurrences to fit your argument. You enjoy taking excerpts from history with the wrong intent; it's not about knowing the why and what of early incidents, but rather obtaining some scenario for relative use. It always puts a different spin on history rather than an objective one.

I would agree with you on the first two but not on the rest.

Aww cmon. I know you believe all of that.

There are some common beliefs that people come to when you don't have dogma dictating your thoughts. For example, gay rights are usually agreed on by atheists because there is no real reason outside of religion not to give them rights. But that is due to some common thinking, not really a common reason atheists group together.

Gross immorality is not a "right." it is never to be sanctioned by the state. It is destructive to any society.

That is true. But it just means organized religion makes more sense on the denomination level rather than the all encompasing "Christian" label.

Quath

Hey I was just giving you a taste of the way you lump us all together. :-D

 

[Quath]

What you refuse to accept is that protestants and catholics are not the same.

I never said they were the same, I just said they were Christians.

Aww cmon. I know you believe all of that.

It would be closer to about half of that.

Gross immorality is not a "right." it is never to be sanctioned by the state. It is destructive to any society.

One religion's immorality is another religion's morality. Immorality is too subjective for our culture since everyone think's their version is correct and everyone else's is incorrect. The government has to go by a standard that is not so subjective.

Quath

 

[antitox]

What you refuse to accept is that protestants and catholics are not the same.

I never said they were the same, I just said they were Christians.

There you have it. I rest my case.

[It would be closer to about half of that.

I know you believe those things. The threads on this board have covered those issues and you were on the promoting end of those arguments.

Gross immorality is not a "right." it is never to be sanctioned by the state. It is destructive to any society.

[One religion's immorality is another religion's morality. Immorality is too subjective for our culture since everyone think's their version is correct and everyone else's is incorrect. The government has to go by a standard that is not so subjective.

Quath

There it is; relativism in its pure form.

 

[Quath]

There you have it. I rest my case.

I have no idea what case you are trying to rest. Catholics are Christians. Protestants are Christians. They have some differences, but they fit under the umbrella of "Christianity." You may have a problem with that, but the majority of people consider Catholics as Christian. It is just one denomination out of the thousands of Christian denominations.

I know you believe those things. The threads on this board have covered those issues and you were on the promoting end of those arguments.

I would say that you have misjudged my positions then.

There it is; relativism in its pure form.

It has always been relative. Protestant Christianity supported American slavery since the Bible supported slavery. Protestant Christianity was against women voting because the man was the head of the house and a man's vote reflected his wife's. Protestant Christianity was against interracial marriage.

Yet Christian values and morality have changed and will continue to change.

Quath

 

[Quath]

There you have it. I rest my case.

I have no idea what case you are trying to rest. Catholics are Christians. Protestants are Christians. They have some differences, but they fit under the umbrella of "Christianity." You may have a problem with that, but the majority of people consider Catholics as Christian. It is just one denomination out of the thousands of Christian denominations.

I know you believe those things. The threads on this board have covered those issues and you were on the promoting end of those arguments.

I would say that you have misjudged my positions then.

There it is; relativism in its pure form.

It has always been relative. Protestant Christianity supported American slavery since the Bible supported slavery. Protestant Christianity was against women voting because the man was the head of the house and a man's vote reflected his wife's. Protestant Christianity was against interracial marriage.

Yet Christian values and morality have changed and will continue to change.

Quath

 

[antitox]

There you have it. I rest my case.

I have no idea what case you are trying to rest. Catholics are Christians.

No they're not.

Protestants are Christians.

Yep.

They have some differences, but they fit under the umbrella of "Christianity."

Nope. They have FOUNDATIONAL differences. I'm not saying that someone in the catholic church can't be a true believer if they have received Jesus into their lives. But just being catholic isn't Christian anymore than somone in a Baptist church isn't a Christian unless he has received Jesus. You don't understand what you are talking about.

You may have a problem with that, but the majority of people consider Catholics as Christian. It is just one denomination out of the thousands of Christian denominations.

You or the masses can "consider" or classify it any way you want, but the fact of the matter is, you are either a Christian or you are not. No other criteria applies.

I would say that you have misjudged my positions then.

How is that? The threads are all over this board (if they can still be found). How many arguments do you think there has been over your aversion to Christianity?

There it is; relativism in its pure form.

It has always been relative.

Do I need say more? :-?

Protestant Christianity supported American slavery since the Bible supported slavery. Protestant Christianity was against women voting because the man was the head of the house and a man's vote reflected his wife's. Protestant Christianity was against interracial marriage.

Boy, you've mixed alot of things across the line. You can't say Protestant Christianity did anything. There may have been some Christians involved, but not Protestant Christianity. Do you see how you lump everything in one bucket and twist the truth? Can you not see this? Christianity has never promoted racism or slavery, but individuals have done that. You deal with half-truths most of the time.

Yet Christian values and morality have changed and will continue to change.

Quath

Totally false. There are some things that should have been accepted concerning people years ago and weren't at the outset, but they were ALWAYS clear in the bible and are still quite clear today. Morality according to biblical statutes never changed.

 

[Quath]

Nope. They have FOUNDATIONAL differences. I'm not saying that someone in the catholic church can't be a true believer if they have received Jesus into their lives. But just being catholic isn't Christian anymore than somone in a Baptist church isn't a Christian unless he has received Jesus. You don't understand what you are talking about.

You are trying to define Christianity according to your terms. I am using the dictionary's terms and the terms of the world. You may disagree, call them heretics or whatever, but so long as they fit the definition of a Christian, people will call them Christians.

How is that? The threads are all over this board (if they can still be found). How many arguments do you think there has been over your aversion to Christianity?

A quick rundown

1. I agree, but I could be persuaded given evidence.
2. Don't have an opinion of Red Sea.
3. I believe some people can not be rehabilitated.
4. I believe people should follow the law in most cases. I believe people should respect the rights of others even if they do not want to.
5. I am uncertain on drugs, but I do support gay rights and euthenasia.
6. I am pro-choice. I wouldn't say that abortion rules.
7. I support life in prison over the death penality for cost reasons and to prevent unreconcilable mistakes. I do not see it as evil and I do not want Manson out.
8. I think history should stay the same and I would want our heritage restored. (Thus our heritage with "e pluribus unum" and without "under God" since that represents our past better.)
9. I agree to an extent. Raise taxes if we spend too much as a country. Keep an environment around for our children. Educate our people.
10. I like this board. I would not want to see it go away.

Boy, you've mixed alot of things across the line. You can't say Protestant Christianity did anything. There may have been some Christians involved, but not Protestant Christianity. Do you see how you lump everything in one bucket and twist the truth? Can you not see this? Christianity has never promoted racism or slavery, but individuals have done that. You deal with half-truths most of the time.

Here are some excerpts from a time line from Religious Tolerance:

1830: The Plantation Mission Movement began. Methodist chapels were constructed on many plantations.

1831: Nat Turner, a Baptist slave pastor, led a major sustained slave revolt in Virginia. He was inspired by the messages of the Old Testament prophets and their calls for justice. "...the notion that slavery was God's will gained momentum after the Nat Turner slave rebellion of 1831. In hundreds of pamphlets, written from 1836 to 1866, Southern slaveholders were provided a host of religious reasons to justify the social caste system they had created."

1843: "In 1843, 1,200 Methodist ministers owned 1,500 slaves, and 25,000 members owned 208,000 slaves...the Methodist Church as a whole remained silent and neutral on the issue of slavery."

1851: J.F. Brennan published "Bible defense of slavery." He claimed that Cain's parents were Eve and the serpent.

Some quotes:

"[Slavery] was established by decree of Almighty God...it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation...it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts." Jefferson Davis, President of the Confederate States of America.

"There is not one verse in the Bible inhibiting slavery, but many regulating it. It is not then, we conclude, immoral." Rev. Alexander Campbell

"The right of holding slaves is clearly established in the Holy Scriptures, both by precept and example." Rev. R. Furman, D.D., Baptist, of South Carolina

"The hope of civilization itself hangs on the defeat of Negro suffrage." A statement by a prominent 19th-century southern Presbyterian pastor, cited by Rev. Jack Rogers, moderator of the Presbyterian Church (USA).

"The doom of Ham has been branded on the form and features of his African descendants. The hand of fate has united his color and destiny. Man cannot separate what God hath joined." United States Senator James Henry Hammond.

-----------------

Not all of the churches and Christians supported this. Some churches split, but many Protestant churches supported slavery and would quote the passages in the Bible that supported slavery.

Totally false. There are some things that should have been accepted concerning people years ago and weren't at the outset, but they were ALWAYS clear in the bible and are still quite clear today. Morality according to biblical statutes never changed.

The following list is things that were considered Bibically moral actions. How many of them are considered moral today by Christians?

1. Owning a person as property.
2. Killing a woman who lost her hymen before her wedding.
3. Beating a slave.
4. Killing a homosexual with rocks.
5. Killing someone for working on Saturday.
6. Killing your enemy's children.

Quath

 

[Muad'Dib]

In a sense, I think it can be blamed on religion. These people were able to kill Indians and feel morally good about it since God supported it. Without religion to justify this, they would have to know they were pirates who massacred people that intended them no harm. So maybe it would have cut down some.

I do agree with you in a sense also. They could have just as easily made up a treaty and then decided the Indians broke it so they could kill them. So there are ways around it. However, organized religion makes it too easy.

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." -- Steven Weinberg, Nobel Laureate

That's actually pretty much the way I was thinking on it. I didn't write it nearly as well though. It would be ridiculous for me to deny that organized religion didn't have a part. I was just trying to show that it was the organized part of organized religion that is the problem. Corruption exists within almost any organization and is almost unavoidable in ones that have existed for centuries.

As to the thread, to say that a religion is a mere security blanket is a gross generalization. It would be just as ridiculous for me to say athiests choose not to believe in God primarly because they fear His existence. Both show a lack of understanding about the nature of belief.

I can see that perspective. However, the idea of eternal life seems better to most than the fear of a god. Atheism offers no comforth for death while religion comforts many people by saying they will meet them again (or God will wipe their memory if heaven and hell separate them). I remember hearing some people claim their animals will be in heaven. It is a big comfort idea for those dealing with death.

If someone fears they are going to hell it may offer comfort from death. But I get your meaning.

 

[bibleberean]

James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Unforturnately Christ and true Christianity get a bad name through apostate churches like the RCC.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2 Peter 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

2 Peter 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

 

[antitox]

You are trying to define Christianity according to your terms.

No what I said was exactly the case. EITHER YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN OR YOU ARE NOT. Very simple. No generalizing, no inaccuracies, no lying. This is the same thing we read about in the NT. The world isn't going to see it that way and neither will you.

[quote:8b2a6]I am using the dictionary's terms and the terms of the world. You may disagree, call them heretics or whatever, but so long as they fit the definition of a Christian, people will call them Christians.

I wouldn't expect it from you any other way.

A quick rundown

1. I agree, but I could be persuaded given evidence.(check)
2. Don't have an opinion of Red Sea. (Ah, but you forgot that the actual statement was no miracles, everything's chemical, now I know that's true)
3. I believe some people can not be rehabilitated. (A first!)
4. I believe people should follow the law in most cases. I believe people should respect the rights of others even if they do not want to.(A first!)
5. I am uncertain on drugs, but I do support gay rights and euthenasia.(check)
6. I am pro-choice. I wouldn't say that abortion rules. (same thing, -check)
7. I support life in prison over the death penality for cost reasons and to prevent unreconcilable mistakes. I do not see it as evil and I do not want Manson out.(check)
8. I think history should stay the same and I would want our heritage restored. (Thus our heritage with "e pluribus unum" and without "under God" since that represents our past better.)(same thing,-check)
9. I agree to an extent. Raise taxes if we spend too much as a country. Keep an environment around for our children. Educate our people.(check)
10. I like this board. I would not want to see it go away..(too much fun? -check)

[quote:8b2a6]Not all of the churches and Christians supported this. Some churches split, but many Protestant churches supported slavery and would quote the passages in the Bible that supported slavery.

It has always been relative. Protestant Christianity supported American slavery since the Bible supported slavery.

Your quotes from "religious tolerance" website do not prove anything except that there were some Christians who supported slavery because it made life easy for them. Sure, and there were Chritistians who didn't. But going back to the original statement which I posted above, PROTESTANT CHRISTIANITY itself doesn't promote these things or support these things. It is individuals that do so that do not line up with scripture.
This was about the south vs the north and Christians of the northern states were against it. AGAIN, this is how you throw everyone in the same bucket to discredit and attempt to strengthen your position. It is HALF-TRUTH.

The following list is things that were considered Bibically moral actions. How many of them are considered moral today by Christians?

1. Owning a person as property.
2. Killing a woman who lost her hymen before her wedding.
3. Beating a slave.
4. Killing a homosexual with rocks.
5. Killing someone for working on Saturday.
6. Killing your enemy's children.

Quath

[/quote:8b2a6][/quote:8b2a6]

None of these are moral today and Paul told people not to treat slaves that way and defended Onesimus in his letter to Philemon. You really don't understand what the bible is about.
Here's the rub. Some of the the people back in civil war days who sought to preserve slavery used the OT historical account the same way you do today. They didn't understand the reasoning behind it (the same way you don't understand today, which is why we have these arguments), so they took that way of life as a pattern of behavior to justify the preservation of slavery. It was truly misused. And that was wrong.

Finally, being an atheist, you seek out incidents from the past to discredit us today. It is not objective, and there is no good intent behind it.

 

[Free]

I haven't read all the posts, but thought I would give my two cents regarding the initial post. Some fatal assumptions were made:

1. That there is no spirituality in organized religion.

2. "The main goal of all organized religion is to answer the call of mans fear and insecurities."
3. That spirituality outside of organized religion will lead one to the truth.

Concerning assumption 1: organized religion can be highly spiritual.

Concerning assumption 2: the main goal is to guard the perceived truth and provide a place of congregation for those who believe the same.

Concerning assumption 3: seeking spiritual things outside of organized religion (read "Christianity") and its creeds can be extremely dangerous, likely more often then not. Also, spirituality is not always about truth seeking, it's often about the experience and feelings, which is just one of the reasons why it is so dangerous.

 

[Klee shay]

The main goal of all organized religion is to answer the call of mans fear and insecurities.

I would rather say the main goal of organised religion is to keep itself relevant in it's own existence. I say that for all religions though and not just Christianity. Without opposition, the organisation would cease to be relevant.

I would also like to make the distinction that it is organised religion as an institution, rather than saying every single Christian is covered under the same blanket statement.

As mankind we are generally fearful and full of insecurities but that does not make Christianity the cause - it makes human nature.

This is why when ones religion is challenged by opposing sets of belief systems we create

Terrorists
Exclusivism
"Chosen people" and "heathens"
Zealous behaviour for unproven Faith claims
etc.........

Terrorists and heathens do exist regardless of whether an organised religion acknowledges it or not. Chosen people is a loaded term. We are all chosen people, only we are chosen for different things according to God's will. Some organisations like to limit the chosen people according to doctrine, but that does not stop the Lord's plan from proceeding forwards.

The Truth that is found in each individual...... IE their OWN demons and angels lurking in the midst of the soul are not addressed in these fast food religious idealogies.

I think people as a whole tend to radiate towards groups in order to distract ourselves from what is really going on inside. The more we can focus on what someone else is saying or standing for, the more we don't have to listen to the deceptions going on in our own hearts.

All people do this. A Christian endeavours to use Christ to overcome these inward deceptions though. They aren't perfect and will fail; but Christ tries to use that failure regardless to build good.

Being Christian is not a simple task by any stretch of the imagination. It requires putting away your understanding gleaned from a lifetime of joy and suffering, and allowing Jesus to reveal his understanding to us through the people we interact with.

The flesh will always tempt us to rely on our own truths and insecurities though and fighting that temptation can be difficult. The one thing an Athiest and a Christian have in common is that they are human. They come with the same design flaws and we all try to find our own way of compensating.

Everything is ALREADY done for them! You have a set of "objective" creeds that if followed, attain liberation of your soul and "quench" that ever knawing insecurity and need for parental guidance.

This is what appears to happen on the outside and I would not disagree that it does happen. However, all people look to quench their insecurities and try to find mentors they can glean understanding from, whether it be in a religion or a schoolyard.

Institutions are here to stay and one no more evil than the next, in that they all serve their own agenda. This is all part of God's plan which is yet to be revealed to mankind as to why?

It is a form of mind control that breeds

Islamist terror
Kamakazi pilots in WW2
Christian Crusaders murdering infidels
Catholic Inquisitions
Witch burnings

This mind control and the resulting fanatical adherancy that follows all stems from the root of a need for assurances and security, never TRUTH!

Do you know why this is and I think some organisational relgions can miss this subtle reason. We focus evil onto people by their actions and we judge. When we focus on Christ which is the truth; there is no need to focus on others with judgement for he already knows they are not a danger to him. He has overcome the world and evil cannot stop him from his victory.

Although I do believe it is important for Christians to remember the teachings in the bible and share them with others. This can sometimes be seen as judging others unfairly, but standing up for what the Lord says is merely continuing the message of the Lord.

When individuals take matters into their own hands however, and turn that message into judgement and then persecution - that is when it ceases to be Christ's truth but mankinds security blanket.

What you are pointing out is true, but it isn't the whole story.

Never the Truth that mankind is all one people created by a Loving God!

Never the Truth that God loves all man equally!

Never the Truth that God is present in all cultures and guides all things!

It all depends which religious organisation you attend. Never is a strong word and I think many churches try to at least impliment one of the above if not more.

I think it's important not to look at organised religion as infalible. It is full of flaws as it is run by mankind. Yet, that does not mean some good is not present. Labelling it as all bad is looking for a security blanket in itself.

Yes religion seeks security

But spirituality and disciplined efforts seek the Truth!

Anyone who seeks knowledge is misguided. As a Christian one must seek God through Christ and seeking personal justification through the guise of Christianity, is just looking for corruptible knowledge.

Mankind seeks security where God is not present.

Which path are YOU on? Do you seek so that you may find? Or do you accept the fast food religious bourgeois of today?

It has taken me quite a while to get comfortable with it, but I am seeking God through my insecurities. When I am troubled I ask him to reveal himself to me; and that always comes in something other than knowledge. God is a spirit and we must worship him in spirit - our knowledge is the deception. :wink: