Religion.............

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Religion in many ways is a placebo (with some potentially negative side effects like divisiveness, war, genicide, etc.) guised in the attire of a panecea that is THE ultimate cure for all of life's ills. It is man's greatest invention as it pertains to helping mankind cope with situations that are tough or seemingly impossible to deal with. There is simply no coping mechanism like religion and because of that and man's need to have a light at the end of the tunnel when going through life's difficulties, it has been and will likely always be a powerful influence on mankind. HOWEVER, none of the above makes religion true or factual in any way whatsoever.

Religion as we have seen throughout history has been both a detrimental as well as a virtuous influence on the history of mankind. It has inspired love and charity but also has been the driving force behind much hate, many prejudices, as well as wars. Is there a way to bottle and keep the hope it inspires while cutting ties with the alienation, separation, and untruths it so often has spread?

 

[kidcanman]

I think you are wrong about religion. Leaders will exploit any ideology in order to convince their people to go to war. The problem has to do with the readiness of people to succumb to their fears and deny the humanity of their fellow man, and the inability of mankind to share this planet.

Look at what happened in Iraq. Bush exploited "freedom" and "patriotism" in order to invade Iraq. Right now America demonizes China and Cuba as communist "just in case", because we are a "democratic" nation. Hitler did not commit his atrocities in the name of religion per say. What about the Hutu and Tutsi?

Just because religion has been a particular form of ideology that people have exploited in order to commit evil does not mean that there is something evil about religion.

Leaders will exploit any ideology (benevolent or malevolent) in order to encourage people to commit atrocities.

 

[Davies]

It is man's greatest invention as it pertains to helping mankind cope with situations that are tough or seemingly impossible to deal with. HOWEVER, none of the above makes religion true or factual in any way whatsoever.

Hi TRUTH over TRADITION,

I'm curious to know why you think religion is man's invention. Do you think it's possible or knowable that truth has been passed down through the generations of man as revealed by God? Or do you know that God hasn't revealed anything or doesn't even exist? How do you know?

- Davies

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Hi TRUTH over TRADITION,

I'm curious to know why you think religion is man's invention. Do you think it's possible or knowable that truth has been passed down through the generations of man as revealed by God? Or do you know that God hasn't revealed anything or doesn't even exist? How do you know?

- Davies

The fact that there are literally 1000's of religions that differ from one another suggests that religion is a man made device in most if not all instances. Now, it may be possible for truth originating from deity to have been passed down from generation to generation of man. But it is in fact just as likely if not moreso likely that no such thing has occurred. We would be better served to not decide one way or the other as it pertains to truth having been passed down to man from a god until we are first able to identify what is and what isn't true and until we have evidence that would suggest we jump to such a conclusion. In addition, we still have the dilemma of sorting through the various gods of religion in hopes of being able to identify whether what has been written about any of them in antiquity is in fact true or merely the whims of ancient man.

I will not for a moment say with any level of definity that there is no or are no gods. I do not know whether there are or not and at this point I honestly have no way of verifying. I also will no longer get on my high horse and act as if I KNOW FOR A FACT that there is a god and that I not only know that there is a god, but I also the identity, will, and plan of that god and am able to verify that certain writings are in fact ITS inspired words. Doing so in slightly vain and delves into a very presumptive arena.

 

[Davies]

I will not for a moment say with any level of definity that there is no or are no gods. I do not know whether there are or not and at this point I honestly have no way of verifying. I also will no longer get on my high horse and act as if I KNOW FOR A FACT that there is a god and that I not only know that there is a god, but I also the identity, will, and plan of that god and am able to verify that certain writings are in fact ITS inspired words. Doing so in slightly vain and delves into a very presumptive arena.

Hi TRUTH over TRADITION,

What you said regarding the numerous religions is true, and I would go further, because each person has a faith in one thing or another, so there could be literally billions of faiths, not comprehensive faiths, but their trust is in something other than God.

I would give for your consideration reasons we know God exists, and that He has in fact revealed Himself to us so we could know. It would be strange if God didn't reveal Himself when He would deserve worship.

We have creation. Creation tells us God exists. We don't know who God is from creation, but the fact we have existence tells us something eternal must have existed beforehand to bring about what we see today. Scientists pose material always existed, Christians hold that God always existed.

We have a conscience. We have a sense of right and wrong. We are different than the animals. Although we may find similarities between man and the animals, this says more about a common creator than anything else.

We have the Bible. The Bible is supernatural. Even with man's flawed scientific approach, we can determine a date to give us confirmation that what is written in the Bible could not have been made up as events unfolded with regards to prophecy. Plus, there is the consistency of theology between the 40 authors and sixty six books.

To know God exists, to know the identity, will, and plan of God is not getting on your 'high horse' unless you are faking it. The challenge comes from being able to humble yourself, and examine the Scriptures without presupposition, and find out if what the Bible says about you is true. I believe the Holy Spirit helps us with this process, and to think you can do it by yourself, discover God, is an arrogant statement and frankly untrue. We are not the arbiters of proof. I believe the Bible provides all the reasoning a person needs to know that Jesus is God revealed, but it's not a light switch we can just turn on. You have to depend on God for help. Christians can point you to the Bible, but if you reject it, there is nothing we can say or do to convince you, but God can.

- Davies

 

[Tina]

Is there a way to bottle and keep the hope it inspires while cutting ties with the alienation, separation, and untruths it so often has spread?

Yes and No.

Yes, if there's even a remotest possibility that ONE church authority through the divine guidance of the Holy Spirit leads the entire flock (church) to all truth and perfect unity.

No, because it's not likely that it will ever happen ...



But guess what, salvation for a Christian has got nothing to do with differences in opinions but has everything to do with faith and a personal relationship with God.

 

[reba]

Religion= Mans plan/search for God

Salvation = Gods plan/search for man

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

I would give for your consideration reasons we know God exists, and that He has in fact revealed Himself to us so we could know. It would be strange if God didn't reveal Himself when He would deserve worship.

We have creation. Creation tells us God exists. We don't know who God is from creation, but the fact we have existence tells us something eternal must have existed beforehand to bring about what we see today. Scientists pose material always existed, Christians hold that God always existed.

We have a conscience. We have a sense of right and wrong. We are different than the animals. Although we may find similarities between man and the animals, this says more about a common creator than anything else.

We have the Bible. The Bible is supernatural. Even with man's flawed scientific approach, we can determine a date to give us confirmation that what is written in the Bible could not have been made up as events unfolded with regards to prophecy. Plus, there is the consistency of theology between the 40 authors and sixty six books.

To know God exists, to know the identity, will, and plan of God is not getting on your 'high horse' unless you are faking it. The challenge comes from being able to humble yourself, and examine the Scriptures without presupposition, and find out if what the Bible says about you is true.

Thanks for your responses Davies. I appreciate your time and thoughtful input. Much of what you declared is sensible and can be thought of as reasonable. However, our agree ends at your declaration that God has in fact revealed Himself to man. We simply have no evidence for this. We have various religious texts including the Bible that make claims of being inspired by a "higher power" but they all fail the test of inerrancy leaving the reader with the problem of having to cherry-pick what was inspired by God and what was not. That creates, as you even indicated a subjective faith where each individual's beliefs can differ with few able to point out others real errors or able to realize what their own errors are. The book is very confusing, somewhat contradictory, and at times seemingly ahistorical and wrong.
It leaves a lot to be desired and frankly, relying on it and placing one's faith in it as an accurate revelation of the might one or mighty ones of the universe seems a bit unwise.

 

[Davies]

TRUTH over TRADITION,

I'm not sure how you've come to your conclusions, but I hope you will reconsider the evidence given to us in the Bible. It is a very cultural book with genres of speech, not to mention prophecies fulfilled that couldn't be made up. The information in the Bible is selective because it is what God has determined what we need. I think we make a mistake when we discount it. It's better to say I don't understand it then to say it's not true based on our own reasoning.

- Davies

 

[modernnihilst]

TRUTH over TRADITION,

I'm not sure how you've come to your conclusions, but I hope you will reconsider the evidence given to us in the Bible. It is a very cultural book with genres of speech, not to mention prophecies fulfilled that couldn't be made up. The information in the Bible is selective because it is what God has determined what we need. I think we make a mistake when we discount it. It's better to say I don't understand it then to say it's not true based on our own reasoning.

- Davies

Correct me if I'm wrong but didnt man decide what books to include or not include into the Bible? Not trying to start an argument, just I kinda agree(to an extent) with Truth. It is not the Bible nor any of its principles(yup I read it) that are flawed it is man that is and thier interpretation of said book that causes the issues assoicated with religions.

 

[Mike]

Correct me if I'm wrong but didnt man decide what books to include or not include into the Bible? Not trying to start an argument, just I kinda agree(to an extent) with Truth. It is not the Bible nor any of its principles(yup I read it) that are flawed it is man that is and thier interpretation of said book that causes the issues assoicated with religions.

Absent of faith, I suppose it would be easy to take your position. As Christians, we believe God had His Hand on the Canon selection process. But even if you cannot believe this, the way the books were handed down from the writers then throughout the people is significant. It isn't as though a group of people stumbled upon these books and determined that they were Divine. They were circulating among believers from the time they were written, many of them together. So, they were in a sense compiled all along. So, by the time they were acknowledged as Inspired, they had already been woven into the Body of Believers.

There were also great pains taken to be certain that they were authentic and met certain criteria. The litmus test was rigorous. Ultimately, we believe the Holy Spirit ultimately dictated which books made the Canon.

 

[modernnihilst]

Absent of faith, I suppose it would be easy to take your position. As Christians, we believe God had His Hand on the Canon selection process. But even if you cannot believe this, the way the books were handed down from the writers then throughout the people is significant. It isn't as though a group of people stumbled upon these books and determined that they were Divine. They were circulating among believers from the time they were written, many of them together. So, they were in a sense compiled all along. So, by the time they were acknowledged as Inspired, they had already been woven into the Body of Believers.

There were also great pains taken to be certain that they were authentic and met certain criteria. The litmus test was rigorous. Ultimately, we believe the Holy Spirit ultimately dictated which books made the Canon.

Yes but there are areas(like parts of Africa) that include diffrent books as part of the Bible. The issue for me at least is that there are inconsistencies(brought about by man) in what books are concidered valid. The Bible does have a good set of rules to live by, this can not be disputed(the whole dont be a dork try to be decent to people thing), the issue I take with it is the this is the only way it can be done thing that some worshipers take to the tales there in.

 

[Free]

Correct me if I'm wrong but didnt man decide what books to include or not include into the Bible?

There were certain criteria used:

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=40264&p=604994&viewfull=1#post604994

 

[Davies]

Correct me if I'm wrong but didnt man decide what books to include or not include into the Bible? Not trying to start an argument, just I kinda agree(to an extent) with Truth. It is not the Bible nor any of its principles(yup I read it) that are flawed it is man that is and thier interpretation of said book that causes the issues assoicated with religions.

modernnihilst,

I think Mike put it very well. I understand that it is difficult to accept that man sat down and wrote the books of the Bible, and yet at the same time, God inspired them to write those words. But when you see what was written hundreds of years previous come true, then you are left with the decision to discount it or put your faith in God. He doesn't leave any middle ground which is wonderful testimony to His grace. Does God force you to put your faith in Him? I don't think so. But given the claim that God the Father sacrificed God the Son to have the sin of world paid for, atoned, then you can understand there is no other means to reach God, be saved, have your sins forgiven. Jesus' sacrifice was eluded to through out the Old Testament, Passover, Abraham and Isaac, Psalm 22, Isaiah 53... The way of salvation is through repentance and faith in Jesus, the Jesus described in the Bible.

Because you've expressed the thought that man decided what was in the Bible, I'd like to identify this as a presupposition. The Bible should be read with its own presuppositions. The Bible presupposes God and then goes on to describe Him. If you read the Bible without the presupposition that God exists, then I don't think you will understand what it's saying. The Bible does claim that faith comes by hearing the word of God, so if you want faith, reading the Bible will be good for you.

A short example of presupposition: Christians say that unbelievers will die in their sins, be judged, and then end up in a lake of fire. Now, are those Christians judging you? No. You may presuppose they are judging you because you don't believe the same way they do. They are stating what the Bible says, if a person hasn't put their faith in Jesus, their sins remain with them, and then they are judged according to the righteousness of God, the Creator. If a Christian wasn't willing to share the Gospel with you, and tell you of the judgment to come because they didn't like you or thought you were so far gone that God couldn't save you, then you could say that person is judging you, and they would be wrong for doing it.

- Davies

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Absent of faith, I suppose it would be easy to take your position. As Christians, we believe God had His Hand on the Canon selection process.

Why?

Person 1: The Bible is the Word of God?
Skeptic: How do you know?
P1: Because it kinda says so inside, maybe.
S: Why do you trust that such claims are correct?
P1: Because the Bible is the Word of God.
S: But again; How do you know it is the Word of God?
Person 1: Didn't I already answer that question?
Skeptic: Actually you didn't. You just used circular reasoning and ended up not saying much of anything.
P1: You don't get it, you just gotta have faith.
S: ?????? Stratches head..........

There were also great pains taken to be certain that they were authentic and met certain criteria. The litmus test was rigorous. Ultimately, we believe the Holy Spirit ultimately dictated which books made the Canon.

The preservation of the texts (especially the NT writings) does seem to be amazingly accurate to the oldest of and perhaps original manuscripts. However, this accuracy says nothing about the truthfulness or trustworthiness of the original writings as being factual.

----
When religion, any religion or set of beliefs in treated as fact when evidence for the factuality of their claims is lacking, such becomes problematic.

 

[Davies]

However, this accuracy says nothing about the truthfulness or trustworthiness of the original writings as being factual.

TRUTH over TRADITION,

What you said about accuracy with regard to being factual is a great point. The question is, 'Is what the Bible says true?' I pose to you that what God has shared through the Bible is enough to say at least, 'it's possible,' and would allow you to reasonably put your faith in Jesus. I still think there has to be a dependence on God to help you, and anyone who reaches out to God in faith is not turned away.

John 6:37
New King James Version (NKJV)
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

----

When religion, any religion or set of beliefs in treated as fact when evidence for the factuality of their claims is lacking, such becomes problematic.

When we are the ones who determine what the standard is for evidence, then we make ourselves God, which is actually violating the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 8th, 9th, and conceivably the 10th Commandments.

- Davies

 

[Mike]

Why?

Person 1: The Bible is the Word of God?
Skeptic: How do you know?
P1: Because it kinda says so inside, maybe.
S: Why do you trust that such claims are correct?
P1: Because the Bible is the Word of God.
S: But again; How do you know it is the Word of God?
Person 1: Didn't I already answer that question?
Skeptic: Actually you didn't. You just used circular reasoning and ended up not saying much of anything.
P1: You don't get it, you just gotta have faith.
S: ?????? Stratches head..........



The preservation of the texts (especially the NT writings) does seem to be amazingly accurate to the oldest of and perhaps original manuscripts. However, this accuracy says nothing about the truthfulness or trustworthiness of the original writings as being factual.

----
When religion, any religion or set of beliefs in treated as fact when evidence for the factuality of their claims is lacking, such becomes problematic.

ToT, is this really the way such conversations really go down? Granted there is a wide range of scriptural knowledge among believers. There's also a wide range of knowledge about how scripture came to be. I'm certainly not the most knowledgeable of either, but I don't think I would give an answer like that.

Regardless, the Truth of scripture can be dismissed, and I believe very few people were argued into believing its authenticity. I believe in many cases, it's pride that stands in the way. I could give many reasons why I see scripture as authentic, but I only have one reason to believe it. This is because it has been impressed on my heart by the Holy Spirit; not because someone convinced me to submit.

 

[reba]

Find a parchment in the tombs of Egypt and everyone will cry the are authentic! The word of so and so..... It is sad when man becomes his own god.

 

[modernnihilst]

Find a parchment in the tombs of Egypt and everyone will cry the are authentic! The word of so and so..... It is sad when man becomes his own god.

In regards to the parchment there are people who can translate the documents, and as to thier authenticity the document is dateable(through c14) and can place it to the year of creation. These are verifiable, the books of the Bible lack thier origionals and even if present were not writen by the people they(most likely) are attributed to. That is the difference.

 

[Davies]

These are verifiable, the books of the Bible lack thier origionals and even if present were not writen by the people they(most likely) are attributed to. That is the difference.

modernnihilst,

I'm glad you qualified your statement with "most likely." When it comes to historical science, the scientific method is useless. As far as the scientific practice used in a lab, let's wait a few years until scientists change their statement of faith as can be witnessed by the change in our college text books over the years to know the truth.

- Davies