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Render Unto Ceasar

Tonight

Member
In the passage Mark 12:17, where Jesus answers the question on whether the Jews should pay taxes to the Romans, Jesus says,

"Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."

What did He mean by "the things that are God's"? He did not mention what these "thing" are. Some Christians think he was referring to tithing. I don't. I think Jesus was talking about other "things" like devotion, love, and obedience.

So, what did Jesus really mean?
 
thats in reference that if we are called to perform to pay a tax, obey a law and render respect to the goverment we do just that. of course, as long as it doesnt contradict the word of the Lord.

see romans 13, and the acts of apostles.
 
jasoncran said:
thats in reference that if we are called to perform to pay a tax, obey a law and render respect to the goverment we do just that. of course, as long as it doesnt contradict the word of the Lord.

see romans 13, and the acts of apostles.

Yes. But, what things are we supposed to render to the Lord?
 
Tonight said:
jasoncran said:
thats in reference that if we are called to perform to pay a tax, obey a law and render respect to the goverment we do just that. of course, as long as it doesnt contradict the word of the Lord.

see romans 13, and the acts of apostles.

Yes. But, what things are we supposed to render to the Lord?
all that he commands us. our life, our money in giving if able, time.

our worship.
 
I can't seem to get a few of my backed up by Bible points to stay on this site for long? So will just keep the point short.
Christ taught SEPERATION BETWEEN CHURCH AND CAESAR GOVERMENT. So.. go study Rom. 13 & see where the SEPERATION there is at.

--Elijah
 
the chruch has a different function yes. but that doesn't mean that one can prayer in public office.
that is what the founders meant. the state has a job to do and the church has its job. that didnt meant that those in office couldnt pray while making decisions or enact laws to support the church. ie declaring holidays or ask the people to fast.

the church isnt meant to be the state. never was.

lewis knows that. secularsation of the goverment isn't good either, even in china during christmas time the goverment buildings will have signs up that say merry christmas.

imagine if today if the congress said to the people during the time of crisis.

"men and women of america we are in a dire situation, we need to seek the face of the Lord and his wisdom to deal with this crisis. we therefore ask you to pray on this date as we will also seek him. For without Him we cant move or function."

many presidents did this and those in congress. Truman asked the lord for wisdom to lead this people and prayed the praryer of soloomon.
 
jasoncran said:
the chruch has a different function yes. but that doesn't mean that one can prayer in public office.
that is what the founders meant. the state has a job to do and the church has its job. that didnt meant that those in office couldnt pray while making decisions or enact laws to support the church. ie declaring holidays or ask the people to fast.

the church isnt meant to be the state. never was.

lewis knows that. secularsation of the goverment isn't good either, even in china during christmas time the goverment buildings will have signs up that say merry christmas.

imagine if today if the congress said to the people during the time of crisis.

"men and women of america we are in a dire situation, we need to seek the face of the Lord and his wisdom to deal with this crisis. we therefore ask you to pray on this date as we will also seek him. For without Him we cant move or function."

many presidents did this and those in congress. Truman asked the lord for wisdom to lead this people and prayed the praryer of soloomon.

I am truely sorry that 'i' spin my wheels. :crying That short note was to be simple??? Let me just say that GOD WILL NOT BE IN FORCED RELIGION OR WORSHIP. (Isa. 59:1-2) He allows Ceasar to run Rom. 13's second commandment [ONLY]. (see Matt. 22:35-40) And Caesar is to keep his paw's out of the first four Commandments of our duty to God alone.

And the CHURCH??? They are to be involved with ALL (Ten Commandments) THE COVENANT. Matt. 28:20
And prayer?? if 'i' was asked to have prayer for a Government event, that prayer would have accountability to God alone by me.

--Elijah
 
so it a sin for you to prayer for those in office? that is commanded. what's the difference if the person in office is a christian and is seeking the lord when he makes the decisions to go to war, healthcare and also the economy.
 
jasoncran said:
so it a sin for you to prayer for those in office? that is commanded. what's the difference if the person in office is a christian and is seeking the lord when he makes the decisions to go to war, healthcare and also the economy.

We just are at opposite wave lengths. Is that what I said??
 
jasoncran said:
thats in reference that if we are called to perform to pay a tax, obey a law and render respect to the goverment we do just that. of course, as long as it doesnt contradict the word of the Lord.

see romans 13, and the acts of apostles.
I do not think that this is Jesus's point, altough I understand why you might think so.

Here is a different interpretation from theologian NT Wright:

Show Me the coin used for the poll-tax." And they brought Him a denarius. 20And He said to them, "Whose likeness and inscription is this?" 21They said to Him, "Caesar's." Then He said to them, "Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's.â€

Now this is a cryptic statement whose meaning is not obvious. For some reason, it has been taken to mean that the world is split into two spheres, one in which God rules and the other in which secular human governments rule. However, this is not what Jesus is trying to tell us. And if it was, then Paul would be contradicting Jesus when, in Romans 1, Paul announces the “gospel†of Jesus Christ.

Of what relevance is Romans 1? Well, in Paul’s world the term “gospel†was frequently used to denote the news that a new emperor has ascended to the throne in Rome. So when Paul uses this same term to refer to Jesus, his point could not be more clear – Jesus supplants Caesar as lord of this present world.

Back to the account of the coin. Just as it is important to know something about what the term “gospel†meant in that time and place, it is also important to know the echoes that Jesus might be eliciting when He makes his coin pronouncement.

The double command Jesus makes (give x to Ceasar and y to God) can be argued to draw on material found in 1 Maccabees 2.68. In that text, Mattathias is telling his sons, especially Judas, to get ready for revolution. ‘Pay back to the Gentiles what is due to them,’ he says, ‘and keep the law’s commands’. And clearly, “paying back†the Gentiles was not meant to refer to money. Instead, it is a subtle suggestion that the Gentiles are about to be overthrown. And I suggest that Jesus is making a cryptic allusion to this account to make a similar point.

So while Jesus is, on the surface, saying “pay the taxâ€, His more fundamental point is that Caesar’s regime is a blasphemous nonsense and that one day God would overthrow it.

Jesus’ teaching about the Roman coin, understood in it context, is not advocating a separation between the spheres of Caesar and God, with secular human governments ruling in one domain and God in the other. Given the overall context of Jesus’ life and ministry – entailing the revolutionary announcement that the Kingdom of God has already broken into history – and given the arguable allusion to 1 Maccabees, Jesus is probably saying, albeit cryptically, that God’s dominion extends to all spheres. One can almost see Jesus wryly smiling as he says “give Ceasar the things that are His†– suggesting that there really is nothing that falls into that category.

I do not think I am reaching when I suggest that when Jesus holds up the coin and inquires about the image and the inscription, He knows the Jews will be reminded of the graven image to Caesar that it contains. Any Jew familiar with the Torah should have rightly bristled at such blasphemy. And remember, the emperor in Rome did indeed set himself up as a god. Jesus is being very shrewd here. The holding up of the coin and the question about its image constitutes a critique of the blasphemy that it expresses. And so Jesus’ clever answer is effectively this: “Pay the tax, but remember who s the real Lord, the one who says ‘You shall have no other gods before me’â€.
 
i will adress that as i have an historical example of why we americans dont want a theocracy. ever heard of how the Irish catholic church persucated the people and they fled to america?
my family(i'm half irish) left ireland for that reason.

people are corruptable.

did the gospel say that we are to make laws and so that we make disciples?

what of those that come to this cristian nation that arent believers?
are we to make thier "faith" illegal?

hard to reach the athiest and the lost when you jail them for violating the laws of christ?
click as the handcuffs are put on and then you say to that person
you ought to repent for that sin of unbelief.

you missunderstand when the american christian talk of seperation of church and state

lewis states what its supposed to be

the goverment isnt to be a church. the church is to influence the culture and by doing so the goverment will rule justly as it wont have to make laws for against certain immorality. as the people wont be violating them


nor are we to make disciples by forcing them to become christians,which the christians in america did to the indians at times.



the goverment was to be neutral to the church and generally it was. then.

look at the posts by lewis in the the thread theres not separation of church and state


that thing of the school house is true.

might i suggest reading the books by laura ingalls wilder

she was a real person that died in 1955


that school house/church was real and the early american's life was centered around that.
 
so then drew if we arent to have a seperate sphere of secular and church and all the ot laws are to be obeyed and the nt additions.

what of the unbeliver?
no votes for him?

no means of holding office
nor freedom of speech that is against the bible
(while i lke that), its oppressive
divorce is illegal
what of taxation?
forced the wealth to spread around(which i think you advocate)
that make no sense if the Lord loves a cheerful giver.

not to mention that if the goverment is to run according to christians prinicples only and you are agianst violence

how then shall we deal with the agressive nation?


btw i'm for a christian goverment but i will wait till the lord comes and wipes out the sinner to set it up. only he can be effective in that. not us. we are to prone to corruption.
 
“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.†-- John Adams

Congress funded the printing of 20,000 bibles in 1781, early presidents called for prayer, humiliation and fasting all the time (Washington, Lincoln, Jefferson). The Congressional Building is wrought with art work depicting Moses holding the 10 Commandments and other Christian art work. Jefferson appointed government funds to missionaries to evangelize the Native American population. The term "separation of church and state" came from a letter Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptists and if you read it, it is clear he is trying to protect the church from the state, not the state from the church!!! Even today, every congressional session starts with prayer, although now it is watered down and universalized.

The church was always meant to be involved in government.
 
that doesnt mean a theoacracy at all.

he wanted the church to be free to do what is meant to do. and that no particular christian denomation was to have precendence over another.

that is the difference between a theocracy and our type of goverment. the government is to be neutral, though it can support the church.

never thought that congress did that. hmm



we were a christian society then unlike today.
 
jasoncran said:
that doesnt mean a theoacracy at all.

he wanted the church to be free to do what is meant to do. and that no particular christian denomation was to have precendence over another.

that is the difference between a theocracy and our type of goverment. the government is to be neutral, though it can support the church.

never thought that congress did that. hmm



we were a christian society then unlike today.

Yeah, its nothing like a theocracy. But the cburch was always intended to have a role in government.
 
of course. drew seems to think we american christians are against that. not true at all.

i go to a men group that is in christian school room that teaches the truth on american history. they teach the kids that to serve the lord is foremost and that america is founded on Godly principles and that were to be patrotic and be good citizens.

http://www.mastersvb.org/index.php?opti ... 0&Itemid=1

the link to that school there. they have interviewed me on my war experciences.
 
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