Repentance (turning from our sin)

[elijah23]

My experience is that when I repent (turn from my sin), my worries disappear. More importantly, Jesus told us to repent.

So why do some Christians resist the idea of turning from their sin?

 

[Danus]

??? What Christians are these you speak of ?

 

[savedbygrace57]

Repentance is given to Gods chosen people, His Israel acts 5:

31Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

 

[elijah23]

??? What Christians are these you speak of ?

I am referring to Christians on Christian forums. Some will quote the Bible, telling me it’s not necessary to repent. Or they’ll say repent doesn’t mean repent. And there are others that agree with me, that we need to turn from our sin.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

"So why do some Christians resist the idea of turning from their sin?"

Silly question - we don't repent because we don't want to, and prefer to continue what's making us "feel good"/is "interesting us" in the short term. Same as an addict who will NEVER "clean up" until the pain of continuing his addiction exceeds his pain of turning from it.

EVERYTHING we do in life as humans (Christian or otherwise) is invariably selfishly motivated - including the decision to "Repent".

 

[Danus]

I am referring to Christians on Christian forums. Some will quote the Bible, telling me it’s not necessary to repent. Or they’ll say repent doesn’t mean repent. And there are others that agree with me, that we need to turn from our sin.

I see what you mean.

Well I certainly think it's necessary to repent, but I also believe, from a broad perspective, that repentance is only good up to the point of ones understanding of their own sin. So, for me, it's impossible to believe there is any acceptable achievable level of repentance. (Acceptable to God) In other words, we are all flawed, we don't measure up to the standard, and we can not ever "BE" the standard. The best we can do is possess a love for God, and the willingness to live a Christan life following the teachings of Jesus Christ, which in my view, includes the need for us to repent.

That places this whole thought into another realm of discussion.

 

[Nathan]

Repentance is given to Gods chosen people, His Israel acts 5:

31Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

This is something I like. Some people take pride in THEIR repentance. Crazy ain't it? Our role in "repentance" is turning to God and trusting His way is better than ours. True repentance will have "works" that follow it. But God does initiate the repentance.

Having begun, regenerated, by the Spirit, are we now going to be perfected in the flesh?

Some Christians reject the idea of repentance because they like where they are at. The only reason a person rejects God's work in them is because they want their way. Other wise they would let God have His way. Pretty simple actually. Crazy, but simple.

 

[Danus]

This is something I like. Some people take pride in THEIR repentance. Crazy ain't it? Our role in "repentance" is turning to God and trusting His way is better than ours. True repentance will have "works" that follow it. But God does initiate the repentance.

Having begun, regenerated, by the Spirit, are we now going to be perfected in the flesh?

Some Christians reject the idea of repentance because they like where they are at. The only reason a person rejects God's work in them is because they want their way. Other wise they would let God have His way. Pretty simple actually. Crazy, but simple.

Not sure I fully follow. How would you answer the question you presented?

 

[elijah23]

I see what you mean.

Well I certainly think it's necessary to repent, but I also believe, from a broad perspective, that repentance is only good up to the point of ones understanding of their own sin. So, for me, it's impossible to believe there is any acceptable achievable level of repentance. (Acceptable to God) In other words, we are all flawed, we don't measure up to the standard, and we can not ever "BE" the standard. The best we can do is possess a love for God, and the willingness to live a Christan life following the teachings of Jesus Christ, which in my view, includes the need for us to repent.

That places this whole thought into another realm of discussion.

I think there is a certain level of righteousness we need to reach. I do not think it is impossible:

You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matt 5:48 RSV

 

[elijah23]

"So why do some Christians resist the idea of turning from their sin?"

Silly question - we don't repent because we don't want to, and prefer to continue what's making us "feel good"/is "interesting us" in the short term. Same as an addict who will NEVER "clean up" until the pain of continuing his addiction exceeds his pain of turning from it.

EVERYTHING we do in life as humans (Christian or otherwise) is invariably selfishly motivated - including the decision to "Repent".

It is true that it is in our best interests to repent.

The point I am trying to make is that some Christians use faulty logic so they can avoid repentance.

 

[Danus]

I think there is a certain level of righteousness we need to reach. I do not think it is impossible:

You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matt 5:48 RSV

Ah....now we're getting somewhere. However, is Jesus actually telling us to "BE" perfect, or is he setting the standard, to set the standard, knowing that we are not able to achieve that in this life? There is a reason for this if you agree he is setting the standard.

Also, what is this level of perfection that you mention we are to reach? Where is it defined?

If you go by your quote, Matt 5:48, it is defined as the level of God himself. Can you attractive that? Because if you can not, then by your thinking of repentance from sin, turning from sin, you would have to achieve Godly perfection, can you say you are saved? ....hold that thought......your post deals with repentance...but now we seem to be getting into Salvation. If we are combining the two to say that salvation depends on repentance and repentance and turning from sin means that you have to be perfect............Who can be saved?

 

[Nathan]

Ah....now we're getting somewhere. However, is Jesus actually telling us to "BE" perfect, or is he setting the standard, to set the standard, knowing that we are not able to achieve that in this life? There is a reason for this if you agree he is setting the standard.

Also, what is this level of perfection that you mention we are to reach? Where is it defined?

If you go by your quote, Matt 5:48, it is defined as the level of God himself. Can you attractive that? Because if you can not, then by your thinking of repentance from sin, turning from sin, you would have to achieve Godly perfection, can you say you are saved? ....hold that thought......your post deals with repentance...but now we seem to be getting into Salvation. If we are combining the two to say that salvation depends on repentance and repentance and turning from sin means that you have to be perfect............Who can be saved?

Funny, the dicliples asked the same thing

As far as the question you asked about my question. I would say that it is IMPOSSIBLE to be made perfect by the flesh. That was a paraphrase out of Galatians. But I am sure you know that already.

This topic really sparked a deep study for me. And I am starting to draw the conclusion that Biblical "repentance"...follow me now...Biblical "repentance", as defined by the Bible, is for the unregenerate. Can someone point out where "repentance", according to the Biblical definition of "metanoeō", is for the born again believer?

ESV Luke 5:32 "I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance."

This is also phrased a little different in Matthew.

 

[Nathan]

I should have added, 100 points for the first person who knows what Jesus answered the disciples when they asked that question....

 

[Nathan]

It is true that it is in our best interests to repent.

The point I am trying to make is that some Christians use faulty logic so they can avoid repentance.

Here is where I am at, notice I say where "I" am at, in my study. It is illogical, even though I do not like to use the word "logic", but it is an oxymoron (there, thats a better word), to use Christians and repent. That is if you are using the Biblical definitions of both of those words.

Now I understand that the line gets grey when we start 'interpreting' those words the way we want to, but I must say that we would be wise to start using words correctly if we are ever going to learn and grow deeper.

I guess I should quantify my statement of the oxymoron. Christians are those who follow Christ. Repentance is a combination of two words in the Greek that mean "understand, consider, perceive, think" and "with, after, among".

So, the basic idea is that a person 'considers the things and ways of God, what God has said and done, and then thinks with his mind to perceive the outcome of two different paths'. Choosing the one that leads into righteousness would be "repentance toward God".

So if a Christian was able to "repent" then he would in essence be choosing to do what he is already doing, so there would be no need to "repent". Study for yourselves, but each time "repentance, repent, repenting" is used it describes something a non-follower does or should do.

The deep debate comes in when you get into Revelation and the meaning behind what Jesus says to the churches.....

 

[Drew]

??? What Christians are these you speak of ?

I know at least one "Christian" who thinks he doesn't need to repent from sin since he is "covered in the blood".

Hmmmm.

I am loathe to bring this up since I know that many do not agree with me on this, but the Bible is clear that final salvation / justification is indeed based on deeds (Romans 2, Romans 8, and elsewhere).

And I suggest that failure to understand the true Biblical picture leads many to think "I'm saved so it does not really matter how I live my life - I'll "try" to be good but my salvation is not at risk".

I do not think either Jesus or Paul would agree with this.

 

[Nathan]

I know at least one "Christian" who thinks he doesn't need to repent from sin since he is "covered in the blood".

Hmmmm.

I am loathe to bring this up since I know that many do not agree with me on this, but the Bible is clear that final salvation / justification is indeed based on deeds (Romans 2, Romans 8, and elsewhere).

And I suggest that failure to understand the true Biblical picture leads many to think "I'm saved so it does not really matter how I live my life - I'll "try" to be good but my salvation is not at risk".

I do not think either Jesus or Paul would agree with this.

I agree, to a point. I believe that "final"(even though I would argue that salvation is just plain salvation) Salvation/justification is not based on deeds, but is proven by deeds. No, this is not just a play on words.

Jesus said "You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit." Matthew 7:16-18 ESV

A fruit does not make the tree what it is. I could go out and tie apples all over a orange tree, that would not make it an apple tree. I could plant an apple tree and pray, hope, believe that it will produce oranges...but it wont.

Deeds are just a "fruit" of the tree. Some times people do put apples on their orange trees just because they think no one will notice. But when the fruit starts to rot, people notice it.

Deeds cannot guarantee anything, but they give a good indication of what the real thing is. Righteous people WILL do deeds of righteousness, and unrighteous people WILL NOT do deeds of righteousness. Either Jesus is telling the truth or He is lying. I believe He is telling the truth.

ESV Romans 4:4-6, "Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:"

ESV John 6:27-29 "'Do not labor for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on Him God the Father has set His seal'. Then they said to Him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?". Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent'."

I agree with you on the fact that people think that they can do what ever, thinking that "their salvation is not at risk". But its because its NOT OUR salvation. Its His salvation. He has promised it to us who believe not on ourselves, but on Him. When that belief is REAL it produces the "deeds" of God. But ONLY because God produces them in us.

We are the branches....He is the vine....

The ONLY deed we can do in and of ourself is to BELIEVE that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God. IF, and only IF, we believe that, will true fruit be born of/through us.

 

[Danus]

The ONLY deed we can do in and of ourself is to BELIEVE that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God. IF, and only IF, we believe that, will true fruit be born of/through us.

Good post! I didn't want to quote the hole thing but I agree.

 

[elijah23]

Ah....now we're getting somewhere. However, is Jesus actually telling us to "BE" perfect, or is he setting the standard, to set the standard, knowing that we are not able to achieve that in this life? There is a reason for this if you agree he is setting the standard.

Also, what is this level of perfection that you mention we are to reach? Where is it defined?

If you go by your quote, Matt 5:48, it is defined as the level of God himself. Can you attractive that? Because if you can not, then by your thinking of repentance from sin, turning from sin, you would have to achieve Godly perfection, can you say you are saved? ....hold that thought......your post deals with repentance...but now we seem to be getting into Salvation. If we are combining the two to say that salvation depends on repentance and repentance and turning from sin means that you have to be perfect............Who can be saved?

If perfection wasn’t possible in this lifetime, why did Jesus bring it up? Jeremiah 31:33 says the Lord will write a law on our hearts. The Lord has written some things on my heart over the years.

Salvation is the matter of the Lord saving us from our mistakes, I believe. We can all be saved (John 3:16).

Heaven is how we feel after we turn from our sin.

 

[elijah23]

Here is where I am at, notice I say where "I" am at, in my study. It is illogical, even though I do not like to use the word "logic", but it is an oxymoron (there, thats a better word), to use Christians and repent. That is if you are using the Biblical definitions of both of those words.

Now I understand that the line gets grey when we start 'interpreting' those words the way we want to, but I must say that we would be wise to start using words correctly if we are ever going to learn and grow deeper.

I guess I should quantify my statement of the oxymoron. Christians are those who follow Christ. Repentance is a combination of two words in the Greek that mean "understand, consider, perceive, think" and "with, after, among".

So, the basic idea is that a person 'considers the things and ways of God, what God has said and done, and then thinks with his mind to perceive the outcome of two different paths'. Choosing the one that leads into righteousness would be "repentance toward God".

So if a Christian was able to "repent" then he would in essence be choosing to do what he is already doing, so there would be no need to "repent". Study for yourselves, but each time "repentance, repent, repenting" is used it describes something a non-follower does or should do.

The deep debate comes in when you get into Revelation and the meaning behind what Jesus says to the churches.....

Are you suggesting being a Christian means you have already turned from your sin?

How many Christians still haven’t repented of their unchastity, pride, insobriety, and other things, though?

 

[Danus]

I know at least one "Christian" who thinks he doesn't need to repent from sin since he is "covered in the blood".

Hmmmm.

I am loathe to bring this up since I know that many do not agree with me on this, but the Bible is clear that final salvation / justification is indeed based on deeds (Romans 2, Romans 8, and elsewhere).

And I suggest that failure to understand the true Biblical picture leads many to think "I'm saved so it does not really matter how I live my life - I'll "try" to be good but my salvation is not at risk".

I do not think either Jesus or Paul would agree with this.

I can't say I've ever meet a Christian that does not see the value of repentance in their life. Nor have I known anyone to espouse that they can live anyway they want because they are saved. So rather than talk around the OSAS elephant in the room I will say that I understand those who interpret the scriptures you've sort of mentioned as needing to repent and turn from sin to be saved. I think that's what your driving at.

The problem with the idea of cleansing ones self of sin, is that there needs to be an acceptable standard, and since the only acceptable standard is Christ himself, one is left with a conundrum. On the one hand I have to accept Christ and his sacrifice to be saved, but there is this idea that I must turn from sin also in order to be saved. So if that;s true then what is the acceptable level? What is the threshold where one leaves sin and accepts Christ?


The OSAS and the infused righteousness thought would be to turn from a sinful life and accept Christ as your savior. All good there. However, the infused righteousness thought would say that you must also keep this sinless life in order to keep your salvation, where as the OSAS thought would say that's not possible since only Christ was sinless. Neither schools of thought through away repentance, but each handle it in different ways. I know many anti OSAS folks think OSAS does but it does not.

Sin is damaging to our lives here on earth. It damages relationships and runs counter productive to the Christian life. All Christians I've ever meet would agree. But, are we ever clean from sin by our own efforts? Some say Christ makes us clean. Ok, but does he make us clean or does he count us clean? There is a difference.

If Christ makes us clean from sin then we are righteous just as Christ until we sin again and we will. So repentance to the infused righteous believer is to earn ones way back into the graces of God, where as repentance to the OSAS believer is to correct ones self more in line with Christ all along not loosing salvation. So both repent, both have a clear need to repent but the motive is different.