Repentance (turning from our sin)

[Nathan]

My experience is that when I repent (turn from my sin), my worries disappear. More importantly, Jesus told us to repent.

So why do some Christians resist the idea of turning from their sin?

I think that in the process of time we have slowly digressed away from the original question. It is inevitable, and in order for us to accurately answer the question we do have to "look deeper".

I think though, to answer the original question in view of new angle, that it is true, you do "feel good, and worries disappear" when you make the choice to stop missing the mark.

And to accurately diagnose the question in hand, we have to realize that it does not naturally "feel good" to let go of control.

Ahhhh....maybe we are on to something. Regardless of our word usage [which I am passionate about as you can see], the truth remains that for a born again believer it does "feel good".

So, therefore, we must assert that the opposite is true, right? I mean realistically, can it be Biblically correct to say that if feels good to hold on to sin?

No. It cannot. So the opposite of a born again believer feeling good about letting go of sin, is that a non-born again believer feels good about hanging on to their sin.

See the relationship between the two? The answer is that the reason why some "christians" resist the idea of turning from their sins, is because they are not true Christians. Sounds simple. But Jesus said that every tree branch that is in Him WILL bear fruit, and the ones that do not, will be pruned, and if they still do not, then they will be cut off.

Its not our choice of whether or not we will bear fruit. Its our choice of whether or not we will let Him bear fruit through us. Holding on to sin and not confessing it makes us miserable, why? Because the Spirit is inside convicting us. Something has to give. One way or the other.

But maybe that is your original question in a different light? That is what I was trying to see. Is your question why don't Christians give in quicker to the work of the Spirit about sin in our life?

 

[RichardBurger]

True repentance, I believe, means we have to do the Lord’s will.

It isn’t good enough to WANT to do the Lord’s will. We actually have to do it.

It isn’t good enough for me to be sorry I was lustful. I have to stop BEING lustful.

Have you stopped? Have you gotten to the point that you no longer sin?

If you haven't then why are you saying others must not sin any longer?

 

[watchman F]

Where the Word is sown, Satan assuredly ENTERS therein to STEAL, which is A SIN. You can claim you are without sin in THOUGHT WORD AND DEED and I will remain with my tongue in cheek.

Jes sayin.

#1 I never made that claim.
#2 you will never be free from sin until you realize you have already been set free from your sin.
#3 you will never become sinless until you believe that it is possible.

God tells us in His word that whoever vcommits sin is a servant of sin, but who the Son sets free is free indeed. Are you saying you are not free? God also says that He can keep us from sinning. Do you doubt His promises?

Only if you had faith like a mustard seed.

 

[watchman F]

Originally Posted by watchman F
Every sinful though is not sin,

Sorry, I don't believe that. Jesus taught that the thought of lust was adultery in heart.

Lust is more than a fleeting evil thought it is the intention to act if given a chance

it is temptation even jesus was tempted. Thought become sin when they become intentions

Uh, no, it was not the same temptation. Satan had 'NOTHING' 'in' Jesus. Jesus assuredly did NOT have 'lust thoughts' for women.

Jesus was tempted in every way same as we are.

 

[smaller]

Lust is more than a fleeting evil thought it is the intention to act if given a chance

heh heh...if you say so. I would venture however that the thought remains a sin no matter how quick it flashes.

Jesus was tempted in every way same as we are.

Would you like to go on record that Jesus had lustful thoughts about women?

??

 

[Nathan]

#1 I never made that claim.
#2 you will never be free from sin until you realize you have already been set free from your sin.
#3 you will never become sinless until you believe that it is possible.

God tells us in His word that whoever vcommits sin is a servant of sin, but who the Son sets free is free indeed. Are you saying you are not free? God also says that He can keep us from sinning. Do you doubt His promises?

Only if you had faith like a mustard seed.

Watchman I am right there with you, I understand where you are coming from, and what you are saying. We are free from sin. Free from the punishment, free from the control, and free from the fear it produces.

I would also make the point that part of "repentance", a turning from your sin and a belief in the Christ, is believing it is possible to be free from sin. I do not think the two can be separated.

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So am I saying that in order for a person to be "born again" he has to believe he is free from having to commit sin? Well...What is the Gospel? I know I have stated it before, but the Gospel is more than a belief in a person who was here on the earth 2000 years ago.

We loose Jewish history, and quite frankly early Christian history, as time goes on. Jewish history [read the ENTIRE Old Testament if your not familiar] tells us that The Christ would come to "save His people from their sins". So, it goes without saying that when someone would say "I believe you are the Christ, the Son of the Living God", that person was effectively saying; "I beleive that Jesus is the promised one from God who is here to take my sins and make me clean".

See, we have watered down the true "Good News". Paul sets out to straighten this even back then. Its no wonder it has gotten so far off track at this point in time. If you think that all a person has to do is go back and study early Christian history, YOUR WRONG. Paul was having to correct people back then, and his letters are IN THE BIBLE, why would we think that things would start to get better after that?

Here is one thing that cannot be over looked. If 'repentance' was something born again believers did, and being free from sin is not something that was supposed to be believed, then how do you study 1John, and see all that he has to say about the fact that Christians CANNOT [not to be confused with should not] continue to live in sin? And he NEVER uses the word "repent"?

 

[smaller]

#1 I never made that claim.

Good! Not that sin is good, but we are ALL presently bound/encumbered with such matters. There is no logically avoiding this conclusion in the text or in reality. I find no gain in lying to myself about these things.

#2 you will never be free from sin until you realize you have already been set free from your sin.

I will maintain that there are more interesting ways to understand matters of sin with/in believers. The fulcrum of that understanding is that there is NO GRACE to SIN or EVIL. Believers who paint themselves with the fantasy of authorization of SIN via GRACE are totally deceived.

#3 you will never become sinless until you believe that it is possible.

There are ways to understand these matters IF one takes the reality of being presently bound with disobedience seriously. I've given the example of Paul the Apostle, him openly stating that when he wanted to do good, that EVIL was present with him, even having a DEVIL. THERE is your example of FACT to deal with.

And I don't DISAGREE that Paul spent his entire life post salvation pressing for RELEASE in REALITY. But that has not transpired YET for our present creation. It IS a promise of the Gospel not yet realized. In the interim we FIND OUR LIFE in HIM with the FACTS OF SIN in us REMAINING.

God tells us in His word that whoever vcommits sin is a servant of sin, but who the Son sets free is free indeed. Are you saying you are not free?

It's not an 'either or' position. One cannot claim themselves free from present facts. Hope seen/realized is no longer hope. (Romans 8:24)

God also says that He can keep us from sinning. Do you doubt His promises?

Intimidation tactics don't sit well with me. Does HIS PROMISE extend to the EVIL that abides in mankind? No. Have believers LOST that presence? No! Adamantly NOT.

Please see your Apostolic example in Paul. Paul did find a DIVINELY LOGICAL way through these issues, but to understand them is to come to grips with the UGLY FACTS in ones self that DO remain post salvation. Lying to ourselves about these matters in some blind insistence that we are or can be SIN or EVIL free is a fantasy of gigantic proportions that cannot be supported in text or in the face of the realities of living in faith.

Only if you had faith like a mustard seed.

Chase it if you please. Anyone who steps onto the ground of FAITH will find resistance to be a continual and present reality. When they no longer see or discern that resistance, they have been in actuality, DEFEATED and are no longer honest 'within' their own hearts and have more than likely GLOSSED OVER sin in themselves, even in their MINDS in the name of GRACE.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Nathan]

Does HIS PROMISE extend to the EVIL that abides in mankind? No. Have believers LOST that presence? No! Adamantly NOT.

Please see your Apostolic example in Paul. Paul did find a DIVINELY LOGICAL way through these issues, but to understand them is to come to grips with the UGLY FACTS in ones self that DO remain post salvation. Lying to ourselves about these matters in some blind insistence that we are or can be SIN or EVIL free is a fantasy of gigantic proportions that cannot be supported in text or in the face of the realities of living in faith.

Not trying to break in on your guys debate, but it is not in the one on one catagory, so I thought I might step in and throw something out for examination.

God's Promise DOES extend to evil that is in "mankind";

ESV Romans 8:3-4 "For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

When we walk in the Spirit God's promise extends to the flesh.

ESV Romans 8:6-7 "For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot."

Here is where I think you might be coming from smaller, when we live in the flesh we will ALWAYS sin. We CANNOT submit to the law, ie; not sin, when we are living in the flesh.

ESV Romans 8:9 "You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Him."

Here is where a proper understanding of 'who we are' comes into play. We are NOT flesh that has a soul, we ARE a soul that has flesh. When we get the right perspective we find that we live in the Spirit, therefore condemning sin in the flesh, applying His promise to the flesh.

Chase it if you please. Anyone who steps onto the ground of FAITH will find resistance to be a continual and present reality. When they no longer see or discern that resistance, they have been in actuality, DEFEATED and are no longer honest 'within' their own hearts and have more than likely GLOSSED OVER sin in themselves, even in their MINDS in the name of GRACE.

enjoy!

smaller

This is very, very true. There is always resistance. That is why a Christian life is a continual life, not a one shot 'say a prayer' 'go down front' 'get baptized', way of life. When we step into faith, the faith He laid out for us and gives us each day, we will find resistance just the same as Christ did when He was here IN THE FLESH.

Be of good cheer though! He has overcome the world, and so to have we IF we are in Him!

ESV 2Corinthians 4:11 "For we who live are always being given over to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh."

ESV Galatians 5:1 "But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh."

We can at times not "feel" the resistance, but only when we walk according to the Spirit. When we step out of that walk, into our flesh, we meet resistance. The resistance should be a warning sign to believers that they are not walking in the Spirit but in the flesh.

Oh what peace we often forfeit, oh what needless pain we bear....

 

[smaller]

Not trying to break in on your guys debate, but it is not in the one on one catagory, so I thought I might step in and throw something out for examination.

I would prefer the term semi-rational discussions...

God's Promise DOES extend to evil that is in "mankind";

Whoa! You do know that there are a myriad of scriptures against that view, right?

ESV Romans 8:3-4 "For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

When we walk in the Spirit God's promise extends to the flesh.

IF there were a SINGLE named instance of a SINLESS FLESH OR MIND of MANKIND other than GOD HIMSELF in the flesh, you'd have a point, but the facts of the entirety of the text and the entirety of humanity will assuredly NOT bear fruit to that fact.

We are 'requested and advised' to not let SIN REIGN in our mortal body, but that assuredly means it is also there to POTENTIALLY REIGN and when it does, we can and DO become slaves of same even post salvation. A christian understanding is that the MORTAL BODY is already DEAD because of SIN therein.

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin

I do not find ANY credibility in stating that a 'reckoned dead' mortal body 'because of' the presence of sin has any promise other than the 'real physical death' that body eventually does receive because of that presence.

ESV Romans 8:7 "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot."

Here is where I think you might be coming from smaller, when we live in the flesh we will ALWAYS sin. We CANNOT submit to the law, ie; not sin, when we are living in the flesh.

Not so at all. Even in 'statis' meaning 'non external actions' SIN remains as a 'power' in the flesh. Note I am not saying the FLESH itself, but THAT POWER is a present tense reality that instantly comes to the surface anytime any person thinks they can PICK UP THE LAW and follow the 'fleshly ordinances' contained therein.

The LAW proves the presence of SIN active in ALL mankind, believer or unbeliever. That presence is WHY no one is righteous and no one seeks and no one understands.

I submit to THAT reality for myself. I believe the Apostles openly submitted to that reality as well. And from there we begin a process of both understanding, but more importantly SEPARATION. That SEPARATION is made complete when we depart the FLESH in 'reality,' that is at the moment of ACTUAL DEATH.

In the meantime we DO have to understand DYING DAILY is a requirement because of the reality of that OTHER WORKING POWER that remains in us and with us. Separation begins when we see it is NOT us as believers, but the power of EVIL and DARKNESS that is NOT US as Gods children.

Each and every time that SATAN inserts A SIN THOUGHT in our heads, we acknowledge that we are simply NOT ALONE in these matters and that we do have REAL 'internal' enemies. Those ENEMIES are NOT christian fantasies. Those enemies are REALITIES that come to us because it is IN US that The Word has been sown and it is THERE within us that THE BATTLES with 'real' internal enemies begin, not end.

ESV Romans 8:9 "You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Him."

Here is where a proper understanding of 'who we are' comes into play.

IF you want to understand ONE THING about what I write about (which same I see openly in the scriptures) it is this. We are not JUST WE. You can claim YOU ARE any given blessed man of God. The reality of the scriptures however both PROVE the power of SIN and that power being CONNECTED TO Satan and devils.

So no, 'we' are not just that. We also carry that OTHER working and should know it as such and DIVIDE ourSELF from that working as BEING us and not 'succomb' to same. Dig?

We are NOT flesh that has a soul, we ARE a soul that has flesh. When we get the right perspective we find that we live in the Spirit, therefore condemning sin in the flesh, applying His promise to the flesh.

It is not as simply as spraying GRACE upon ourselves. There is no working of GRACE to the INPUT of SIN THOUGHTS to the entity from which they come. That is simply NOT going to happen, EVER. Satan HAS NO GRACE available. When you consider that TEMPTATION THOUGHTS for example are NOT OF YOU you may understand the COMPLETE insufficiency of GRACE SPRAY.

It IS and CAN BE for you as Gods child, but you should understand that is NOT ALL that is going on within any of us. And you should be FURTHER advised that SATAN loves to have GRACE SPRAY applied to himself and his works and workers. This is one of his greatest delights. To masquerade and hide. When you read the Gospels it should become abundantly clear to you 'where' Satan and devils are and that is IN MAN. Remember this principal and it will do YOU well, but when you know it, you may very well become instantly BLINDED to this fact by that POWER, as that is what SATAN does.

If anything, THE LIVING WORDS of GRACE will bring even stronger resistance and patent predictible blindness from the ENEMY, SATAN and yes, IN believers.

Just as THE LAW caused BLINDNESS to come upon the unbelievers of Israel, Grace is an even MORE potent ENHANCER of BLINDNESS.

Jesus APMPLIFIED the LAW to make us understand this reality. The 'inside' of the cup is a hard place to look 'honestly.' The Pharisees were BLINDED by that SAME POWER, and Jesus openly addressed CHILDREN OF THE DEVILS in those men.

Why? Because it was there, IN THE TEMPLE, where THE WORD was sown and THEY were the 'first to fall' from the 'real' enemies whom they COULD NOT perceive.

It is no different today.

This is very, very true. There is always resistance. That is why a Christian life is a continual life, not a one shot 'say a prayer' 'go down front' 'get baptized', way of life. When we step into faith, the faith He laid out for us and gives us each day, we will find resistance just the same as Christ did when He was here IN THE FLESH.

I will always say that a man IN TRUTH will not deny the FACTS of SIN 'within.' Any man or person who says otherwise has BEEN BLINDED by the very 'god' of this world that I am writing about.

Paul and John were very OPEN and HONEST about these matters and DID NOT in any way DENY this reality. Paul had EVIL present with him and even A DEVIL put upon him to REMIND him of this fact and to KEEP HIM HUMBLE.

A man who DESIRES TRUTH will sooner or later be FORCED to eat a very big piece of HUMBLE PIE on this matter or REMAIN BLINDed within to the FACTS.

Be of good cheer though! He has overcome the world, and so to have we if we are in Him!

ESV 2Corinthians 4:11 "For we who live are always being given over to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh."

ESV Galatians 5:1 "But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh."

We can at times not "feel" the resistance, but only when we walk according to the Spirit. When we step out of that walk, into our flesh, we meet resistance. The resistance should be a warning sign to believers that they are not walking in the Spirit but in the flesh.

I have met many a believer who can only paint themselves with THE GOOD SIDE of the ledgers of scriptures. When you understand that YOU, that is IN YOUR FLESH carry the POWERS that will for A FACT receive THE DARK SIDE, then you may understand the FULL SPECTRUM of SCRIPTURE. The BAD WORDS that are so easily painted upon the blinded UNbelievers are in fact for that SAME WORKING that works in BELIEVERS as well. Few are meant to TAKE THIS MEAL FACT because SATAN will not allow them to see or understand.

Oh what peace we often forfeit, oh what needless pain we bear....

Sing away. I too sing, but I sing for reality of GODS LOVE to me and my fellow believers and the DESTRUCTION that is to come upon the other workings that are IN us. I will NOT deny the latter as A FACT because the truth of that matter is revealed to me by HONESTY. TRUTH brought this into me, AND for that I AM THANKFUL unto GOD IN CHRIST for the disclosures.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[RichardBurger]

#1 I never made that claim.
#2 you will never be free from sin until you realize you have already been set free from your sin.
#3 you will never become sinless until you believe that it is possible.

God tells us in His word that whoever vcommits sin is a servant of sin, but who the Son sets free is free indeed. Are you saying you are not free? God also says that He can keep us from sinning. Do you doubt His promises?

Only if you had faith like a mustard seed.

The scriptures indicate that the flesh can never be made perfect. A child of God is perfect in the spirit, not the flesh. Nor can the flesh make a person sinless. (Romans 7 and Gal. 3)

Galatians 3:2-3
2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?
NKJV

Are you now being made perfect by the actions of your flesh?

 

[Nathan]

I am really, really trying to follow you. But I am having a hard time understanding the exact point you are trying to make.

Here is what I know. Satan, lucifer, the devil, is a created being. Created by God, and only given power by God. He is subject to what God allows him to do. When he 'fell', he did not inherit some kind of mystical power greater than his CREATOR. He did, however, receive complete ownership of all the earth and that which inhabits it. He cannot be in more than one place at a time.

He does have a very, very large number of 'followers'. Some are being reserved until the last time, some are left to wonder around. We do not know the number, that is for sure. But I seriously doubt that it is equal to every living thing, therefore, not everything can have a demon, or a devil, or satan, inside him/her.

1Corinthians 6:19 "Or do you not know that your body[literary flesh in the original language] is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God?"

He inhabits our flesh. Now some will say that God can not even be around evil. If that were true then we would not have the account of Him and Satan talking in heaven about Job. BUT, He will now dwell with evil. So, it behooves us to understand that while sin, and temptation, and evil thoughts, and evil desires, may come to us, they cannot STAY IN US.

Yes, it has the POTENTIAL to take us over, but only if we LET it. It is CONSTANTLY there, no arguments on that point. But it is not CONSTANTLY IN US. It is an impossible proposition.

ESV 2Peter 1:3-4 "His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us to his own glory and excellence,by which He has granted to us His precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire."

See, it is something we have to choose to do. It is there for us to believe in, but not imposed on us because of our own will. Grace is NOT a spray. It IS the power of God, working in our lives. If it is not working, it is not grace.

On the flip side, the power of sin...is the law. Therefore, we do not submit ourselves to the law, but to the Spirit.

Jesus FULFILLED the law in Himself, if we are in Christ we have the Law fulfilled in us.

Here is a very hard fact, and might be why people have such a hard time grasping things of this nature. You said;

"We are 'requested and advised' to not let SIN REIGN in our mortal body, but that assuredly means it is also there to POTENTIALLY REIGN and when it does, we can and DO become slaves of same even post salvation. A christian understanding is that the MORTAL BODY is already DEAD because of SIN therein."

We are commanded, not requested, and 'advised' of the outcome of not obeying that command. It is there to potentially reign, but it cannot if we live in the Spirit. Here is the hard part for me, what is "post salvation"? Have you received the promise gift, eternal life, as a possession OTHER than by faith?

We have not received it yet, we have not been risen yet. We have obtained the promise BY FAITH, and that faith is what will lead us to the FULFILLMENT of the promises when He returns.

If we CHOOSE to go back to the life of slavery under sin, obeying it continually, then we no longer have that promise. We cannot have both. A servant cannot have TWO masters.

I really would like to understand your specific point. But I think its getting lost in all the other talk. I think that I have somewhat of a grasp on what you are trying to say, but it just does not make sense. Could you provide some references and make some clear and concise points?

 

[Nathan]

The scriptures indicate that the flesh can never be made perfect. A child of God is perfect in the spirit, not the flesh. Nor can the flesh make a person sinless. (Romans 7 and Gal. 3)

Galatians 3:2-3
2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?
NKJV

Are you now being made perfect by the actions of your flesh?

Right on, perfect! The flesh is dying. 'We' are not the 'flesh'. We live in it, but it has to die. It is mortal, and we must inhabit immortality to live in the kingdom of God.

What is taking place, is that through the Spirit of God, in our being, by the Grace of God, that is His power, we are day by day, minute by minute, putting to death the deeds of the flesh. We don't just say that "it will one day be put off, therefore it matters not what happens till then."

We are perfect in spirit, AMEN!! He has purified our souls. But He did that in order for us to also follow in the same footsteps He took while here on earth.

1Peter 4:1-2 "Since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves with the same way of thinking, for whoever has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, so as to live for the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for human passions but for the will of God."

It matters to God what happens in our flesh. To have the idea that God does not care about what we do with our fleshly bodies is to have a wrong view of why He gives us His grace.

His grace is not just a covering, it is His power to overcome in the flesh. That is why Paul made the irrational argument of us living in sin so that God would give more and more grace to us. Its a skewed way of thinking because His grace does cover over our sins, but at the SAME time it gives us the power to overcome the temptations that come our way.

Why does it do both? So we might not sin anymore, that is, to miss the mark, which is the zealous approach to life here on the earth, living each day for God.

The flesh will never be made perfect, right on, but it will/can become purer. The purpose of it becoming purer is to Glorify God in our bodies, our flesh. The flesh WILL BE sown in corruption, but it will be raised incorruptible.

 

[smaller]

-I am having a hard time understanding the exact point you are trying to make.

I really have tried to make this simple and will continue to try. Grace is FULLY APPLICABLE and EXTENDED to believers in TOTALITY and in CONSTANT SUFFICIENCY. But that SAME GRACE will avail exactly ZERO to the POWERS of SATAN and DEVILS that are for a fact involved with the actions of SIN and EVIL in believers.

Believers have NOT received AUTHORIZATION to SIN or do EVIL by GRACE.

Here is what I know. Satan, lucifer, the devil, is a created being. Created by God, and only given power by God. He is subject to what God allows him to do. When he 'fell', he did not inherit some kind of mystical power greater than his CREATOR.

From the above we may have many deflections. I do not believe that Satan was some 'holy angel' gone south from making bad decisions. He was a LIAR and A MURDERER 'from the beginning' according to Jesus in John 8:44. The notion that Satan had 'freewill' and was 'holy' is a fantasy that comes primarily from the freewill camps. We do not by our 'freewill' make ourselves SINLESS or NOT SUBJECT to SINNING TEMPTATION THOUGHTS that come FROM Satan in our MINDS, and YES, such thoughts are SIN and they are DEMONIC in 'nature' and 'origination.' Where the Word is sown, then SATAN enters to STEAL WORD from our hearts INCLUSIVE our of MINDS. This is THEFT, it is SIN and it is from an ENTITY that is NOT the man stolen from, yet it DOES transpire IN THAT PERSON. A SIN then transpires IN THAT THEFT that is NOT of the PERSON but OF SATAN stealing from them.

He did, however, receive complete ownership of all the earth and that which inhabits it. He cannot be in more than one place at a time.

You keep saying that Satan can not be in simultaneous places. You do understand that Satan is AN ANTI-CHRIST spirit. You cannot say that working is LIMITED to only ONE PHYSICAL PLACE at a time as that is a working of ANTI-SPIRITUAL nature that you cannot put in such a box. That working is ANTI-CHRIST spirit and that ANTI-CHRIST spirit does ENTER where THE WORD is sown, and not ONE PERSON at a time, but IMMEDIATE in response to where ever the Word is sown. So yes, that THEFT can occur in MASSIVE amounts of people SIMULTANEOUSLY. This does also NOT mean Satan is 'omnipresent' in the GOD SENSE of Omnipresence. Satan can is IS connected in some ANTI-CHRIST spiritual way to EVERY ONE of his children. What way that is, I cannot SEE or SAY because of the 'nature' of that working.

not everything can have a demon, or a devil, or satan, inside him/her.

There are FEW believers who can accept the THEFT of SATAN as applicable to THEMSELVES and when they deny that happened in them, they are imho blinded to the FACT by that same POWER. If Paul had evil present with him when he desired to do good, I say that power was of THE EVIL ONE in whatever form you'd like to attach as long as it is attached to SATAN and DEVILS in some way. I do ADAMANTLY NOT believe that PAUL was THAT EVIL present with him.

1Corinthians 6:19 "Or do you not know that your body[literary flesh in the original language] is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God?"
He inhabits our flesh. Now some will say that God can not even be around evil. If that were true then we would not have the account of Him and Satan talking in heaven about Job. BUT, He will now dwell with evil. So, it behooves us to understand that while sin, and temptation, and evil thoughts, and evil desires, may come to us, they cannot STAY IN US.

You can exempt yourself in any way you see fit. Jesus said He will NEVER leave us or forsake us and that NOTHING can separate us from the LOVE of GOD in Christ, even if there is EVIL PRESENT or A DEVIL which same Paul assuredly HAD. LOVE prevails while WITHIN the PRESENCE of HIS ENEMIES regardless and it is HIM who is LONGSUFFERING in us with these matters.

Yes, it has the POTENTIAL to take us over, but only if we LET it.

Another christian fantasy. Your will has about ZERO to do with the will of Satan or Devils. They do what they do regardless of your 'letting.' IF Satan desires to insert AN EVIL SINNING TEMPTATION THOUGHT right now into your HEAD Satan can DO SO whether you like it or not. And if you think you can PREVENT THAT, by all means PREVENT ON. I will not deceive myself in this matter because I KNOW BETTER. I have found, like Paul that when I want to do GOOD that EVIL is in FACT present WITH me.

It is CONSTANTLY there, no arguments on that point. But it is not CONSTANTLY IN US. It is an impossible proposition.

You are welcome to vascillate between perfection and imperfection. I find it easier to simply DIVIDE myself from that working that is NOT ME as Gods child even while I know that other POWER constantly tries me. There is no reprieve in the battle while in this present life.

Anyone can try to sit on their GLORY/GRACE CLOUD all the while not understanding that evil present is in fact WITH THEM while they are sitting thereon.

ESV 2Peter 1:3-4 "His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us to his own glory and excellence,by which He has granted to us His precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire."

See, it is something we have to choose to do. It is there for us to believe in, but not imposed on us because of our own will. Grace is NOT a spray. It IS the power of God, working in our lives. If it is not working, it is not grace.

I use the term SPRAY because so many want to SPRAY the workings of SIN and EVIL within themselves WITH and BY Gods Grace. God has NOT granted grace to the workings and workers of INIQUITY, that being THE DEMONIC that is assuredly connected to ALL of those workings. I am not a 'free Grace' SPRAYER upon those workings or workers when 'applying' same. I can be forgiven when I FALL under THEIR IMPetus and I DO FALL. They cannot RECEIVE GRACE. I CAN and DO, Therefore GRACE is not for DEVILS and I NEED GRACE constantly BECAUSE of that OTHER WORKING.

The EVIL present therefore has FORCED me to rely SOLELY ON GRACE. There is no other FLOATILLA available.

I NEED GODS GRACE as A CONSTANTLY SUPPLIED REALITY because of that other working. EVIL present has MADE ME reliant upon GRACE as A REALITY of NEED.

And I will NOT share GRACE with THAT EVIL present.

On the flip side, the power of sin...is the law. Therefore, we do not submit ourselves to the law, but to the Spirit.

And you might consider that the power of the LAW is always in reaction with the POWER OF SIN and that you have very little to do with those DYNAMICS.

The POWER OF SIN is going to do what IT DOES in relation to THE LAW no matter what YOU think about it. Paul was very adroit about how these things work in the early portions of Romans 7 in 'how' SIN reacted IN himself when it met LAW.

There is the LAW that Paul brought us. That the power of SIN whenever and wherever it ENGAGES LAW produced ALL KINDS of concupiscience IN Paul's mind and Paul found out that he was QUITE helpless to STOP that from happening and SO ARE YOU and I. Sin does what it does IN RELATION to the POWER that PUSHES IT OUT contained in THE LAW. It is A WORKING of the SPIRITUAL in contention with the ANTI-CHRIST spirits. That CONFRONTATION transpires WITHIN our MINDS as SIN THOUGHTS and TEMPTATION thoughts, which can in the next step produce SIN WORDS and eventually SIN DEEDS. That is the progression of THAT WORKING. And ALL mankind is SUBJECT to that form of DISOBEDIENCE regardless of how much GRACE PAINT they put upon that working.

All have SIN as a present tense occupancy of the flesh/mind. All have SINNED as a result OF THAT POWER in them. The scriptures leave ZERO wiggle room for SINLESS believers in these matters.

The GOOD NEWS is that WE are NOT the same AS THAT EVIL POWER. There is your beginning of VICTORY in HIM.

Sins are NOT COUNTED AGAINST US...2 Cor. 5:19

but they ARE and will be TOTALLY COUNTED against the DEMONS INFLUENCES and ACTIONS that bring these things to us.

And therein we are 'exercised' by the understandings of what is GOOD and what is EVIL and we 'supposedly' benefit from that exercise.

Jesus FULFILLED the law in Himself, if we are in Christ we have the Law fulfilled in us.

I could get into a whole nother subject on that. Declaratory righteousness is one thing, even for FALLEN warriors. But there is also a working that remains for US in these matters. See Romans 13:8-10 to see HOW that 'legalistic' performance is supposed to come 'for us' as well. And not just in a DECLARATORY fashion ala Jesus did it all for me therefore I'M DONE.

Have you received the promise gift, eternal life, as a possession OTHER than by faith?

Not really sure what you are trying to get at above? Questioning my salvation experience will do you NO good. I was and have been saved for nearly 3 decades now and it was PERSONAL and DYNAMIC in nature and experience. I MET THE LIVING GOD in my HEART and His Name is JESUS CHRIST who remains WITH ME and IN ME even in the PRESENCE of my enemies.

Could you provide some references and make some clear and concise points?

You will not and cannot understand unless and until God grants you the honesty to look WITHIN the cup. This is a work beyond my abilities. I only write what I see in text and have experienced in reality.

I do know that GRACE has not authorized SIN or EVIL in anyone.

enjoy!

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[Nathan]

Believers have NOT received AUTHORIZATION to SIN or do EVIL by GRACE.

So this is your point, I agree, and I have not found any posts on here that disagree to this point.

From the above we may have many deflections. I do not believe that Satan was some 'holy angel' gone south from making bad decisions. He was a LIAR and A MURDERER 'from the beginning' according to Jesus in John 8:44. The notion that Satan had 'freewill' and was 'holy' is a fantasy that comes primarily from the freewill camps. We do not by our 'freewill' make ourselves SINLESS or NOT SUBJECT to SINNING TEMPTATION THOUGHTS that come FROM Satan in our MINDS, and YES, such thoughts are SIN and they are DEMONIC in 'nature' and 'origination.' Where the Word is sown, then SATAN enters to STEAL WORD from our hearts INCLUSIVE our of MINDS. This is THEFT, it is SIN and it is from an ENTITY that is NOT the man stolen from, yet it DOES transpire IN THAT PERSON. A SIN then transpires IN THAT THEFT that is NOT of the PERSON but OF SATAN stealing from them.

You keep saying that Satan can not be in simultaneous places. You do understand that Satan is AN ANTI-CHRIST spirit. You cannot say that working is LIMITED to only ONE PHYSICAL PLACE at a time as that is a working of ANTI-SPIRITUAL nature that you cannot put in such a box. That working is ANTI-CHRIST spirit and that ANTI-CHRIST spirit does ENTER where THE WORD is sown, and not ONE PERSON at a time, but IMMEDIATE in response to where ever the Word is sown. So yes, that THEFT can occur in MASSIVE amounts of people SIMULTANEOUSLY. This does also NOT mean Satan is 'omnipresent' in the GOD SENSE of Omnipresence. Satan can is IS connected in some ANTI-CHRIST spiritual way to EVERY ONE of his children. What way that is, I cannot SEE or SAY because of the 'nature' of that working.

So what is your view of him then?? References? And where do you get the fact that where the word is sown he also enters??? References?

You can exempt yourself in any way you see fit. Jesus said He will NEVER leave us or forsake us and that NOTHING can separate us from the LOVE of GOD in Christ, even if there is EVIL PRESENT or A DEVIL which same Paul assuredly HAD. LOVE prevails while WITHIN the PRESENCE of HIS ENEMIES regardless and it is HIM who is LONGSUFFERING in us with these matters.

Exempt myself from what? The fact that satan roams around like a lion seeking whom he may devour?

1Pe 5:8-9 "Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. Resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same kinds of suffering are being experienced by your brotherhood throughout the world."

If he is in us...then how is he also roaming around us...?

Another christian fantasy. Your will has about ZERO to do with the will of Satan or Devils. They do what they do regardless of your 'letting.' IF Satan desires to insert AN EVIL SINNING TEMPTATION THOUGHT right now into your HEAD Satan can DO SO whether you like it or not. And if you think you can PREVENT THAT, by all means PREVENT ON. I will not deceive myself in this matter because I KNOW BETTER. I have found, like Paul that when I want to do GOOD that EVIL is in FACT present WITH me.

I do not think that anyone has ever said that temptation does not come to us...come to us...come to us...not 'dwell' in us. And there is no way anyone can "prevent" it. I never said that.

Matthew 26:41 "Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."

All have SIN as a present tense occupancy of the flesh/mind. All have SINNED as a result OF THAT POWER in them. The scriptures leave ZERO wiggle room for SINLESS believers in these matters.

Again, No one said there are COMPLETELY sinless believers.

1John 1:5-9 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

So...what part of ALL does He not cleanse?

Sins are NOT COUNTED AGAINST US...2 Cor. 5:19

AMEN!!!

Not really sure what you are trying to get at above? Questioning my salvation experience will do you NO good. I was and have been saved for nearly 3 decades now and it was PERSONAL and DYNAMIC in nature and experience. I MET THE LIVING GOD in my HEART and His Name is JESUS CHRIST who remains WITH ME and IN ME even in the PRESENCE of my enemies.

I have NEVER nor will I EVER question your salvation. Thank God that He does not ever leave us.

You will not and cannot understand unless and until God grants you the honesty to look WITHIN the cup. This is a work beyond my abilities. I only write what I see in text and have experienced in reality.

I do know that GRACE has not authorized SIN or EVIL in anyone.

enjoy!

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Your right, I do not need a man to teach me anything...

1John 2:27 "But the anointing that you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as His anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie--just as it has taught you, abide in Him."

I only ask you for the reasons why you believe what you believe. Hey...if they are not in the Bible so be it...I am not going to try and tell you that you do not believe what you believe.

But if your references are in the Bible I would just like to see them myself.

Grace does not authorize...it covers...if it was not for grace we would both be naked.

 

[RichardBurger]

Right on, perfect! The flesh is dying. 'We' are not the 'flesh'. We live in it, but it has to die. It is mortal, and we must inhabit immortality to live in the kingdom of God.

What is taking place, is that through the Spirit of God, in our being, by the Grace of God, that is His power, we are day by day, minute by minute, putting to death the deeds of the flesh. We don't just say that "it will one day be put off, therefore it matters not what happens till then."

We are perfect in spirit, AMEN!! He has purified our souls. But He did that in order for us to also follow in the same footsteps He took while here on earth.

1Peter 4:1-2 "Since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves with the same way of thinking, for whoever has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, so as to live for the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for human passions but for the will of God."

It matters to God what happens in our flesh. To have the idea that God does not care about what we do with our fleshly bodies is to have a wrong view of why He gives us His grace.

His grace is not just a covering, it is His power to overcome in the flesh. That is why Paul made the irrational argument of us living in sin so that God would give more and more grace to us. Its a skewed way of thinking because His grace does cover over our sins, but at the SAME time it gives us the power to overcome the temptations that come our way.

Why does it do both? So we might not sin anymore, that is, to miss the mark, which is the zealous approach to life here on the earth, living each day for God.

The flesh will never be made perfect, right on, but it will/can become purer. The purpose of it becoming purer is to Glorify God in our bodies, our flesh. The flesh WILL BE sown in corruption, but it will be raised incorruptible.

I do not believe in progressive sanctification any more than I believe in progressive salvation. The flesh will never be sinless. No one can say they are good. Only God is good.

Why is it that many will quote John 3:16-18 and yet not accept the fact that the only sin that condemns us in this age of God's grace is the sin of unbelief. --- I do believe that a child of God does not want to sin but I also know that he/she will (Romans 7).

It is traggic that many would be children of God are not because they have been led to believe that when you become one you will stop sinning and get better and better. THey look into their own heart and see the truth. Perhaps those that claim perfection and sinlessness should buy a mirror.

 

[smaller]

So this is your point, I agree, and I have not found any posts on here that disagree to this point.

There are 'sinless perfection in the flesh/mind' danglers in the thread.

So what is your view of him then?? References? And where do you get the fact that where the word is sown he also enters??? References?

Surely you should know these by heart:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Matthew 13:19
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Luke 8:12
Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

The instant one reads the above and says in their mind/heart: THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN TO ME (on any basis) they have in fact been BLINDED.

The same activity can be expanded upon many ways. 2 Cor. 4:4, Romans 7 in relation to LAW WORDS being sown, Romans 11:8-9 come quickly to mind among many others.

Exempt myself from what? The fact that satan roams around like a lion seeking whom he may devour?

No, the more simplistic sight of THEFT of WORD from the hearts, the working of EVIL RESISTANCE and the BLINDING of unbelievers that come IN MULTIPLE SIMULTANEOUS happenings. The view that 'satan' is conscribed to some sole physicality is not viable. There is and remains a WICKED EVIL world with WICKED EVIL inhabitants that we cannot see, but ARE revealed in the scriptures OPENLY for those who are led to see same.

If he is in us...then how is he also roaming around us...?

Already did this one with you on the insertion of SIN TEMPTATION thoughts. You can 'limit' that to some sole locality if that is what you think. I think NOT.

So be it.

I do not think that anyone has ever said that temptation does not come to us...come to us...come to us...not 'dwell' in us. And there is no way anyone can "prevent" it. I never said that.

Paul is the example of realities that I take in these matters primarily. IF a called Apostle was NOT exempt from EVIL PRESENT when he desired to do good or the DEVIL (messenger of Satan) that was put upon him, then NEITHER are any of us no matter the protestations of otherwise.

Protestations of these realities are COVER UPS of the demonic transpiring IN that flesh/mind. I do not blame believers, but the working is tangible, once seen, by DENIALS.

Matthew 26:41 "Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."

Again, No one said there are COMPLETELY sinless believers.

1John 1:5-9 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

So...what part of ALL does He not cleanse?

Satan parts.

Grace does not authorize...it covers...if it was not for grace we would both be naked.

GRACE will avail NOTHING to satan and devils which DO WORK in mankind including WITHIN believers. They will not benefit ONE WHIFF from those realities of GRACE to believers.

Matthew 10:26
Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.

Be careful what you paint with GRACE.

enjoy!

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[Nathan]

Surely you should know these by heart:

:yes I do...lol

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Matthew 13:19
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Luke 8:12
Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Now I wouldn't think I would have to point this out...but...there were four different places the seeds fell. The birds were only at one of those spots...

The instant one reads the above and says in their mind/heart: THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN TO ME (on any basis) they have in fact been BLINDED.

Well...you read my mind..lol. Seriously though, you are right, its not a joke for some. But quite frankly the ONE group of people that the devil did come and steal away really don't care, and are more than likely not reading this right now. I would even venture to say that they are laughing at us for even talking about this.

He OBVIOUSLY did not take my seed away...or come to live in me...which is it? If he takes the seed away...then how does he stay...?

Now, I will not be to presumptuous to say that I could not have at one time been in one of the other areas the sower planted...but none of the others bore fruit...I have...therefore...

The same activity can be expanded upon many ways. 2 Cor. 4:4, Romans 7 in relation to LAW WORDS being sown, Romans 11:8-9 come quickly to mind among many others.

Let me help you out with these references.

2Corinthians 4:3-4 [context please] "And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."

Romans 7:5 "For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code."

But I know that you are holding to the verse that says, "So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me." and "Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin."

Your correct. Sin is a bad bad thing, evil actually.

"For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing." So Paul makes this statement in between those two statements. He says that HE keeps on doing it...not satan...not evil...he keeps on doing it.

Romans 11:6-11, [I like to keep things in context] "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day." And David says, "Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them; let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see, and bend their backs forever." So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous."

Paul is the example of realities that I take in these matters primarily. IF a called Apostle was NOT exempt from EVIL PRESENT when he desired to do good or the DEVIL (messenger of Satan) that was put upon him, then NEITHER are any of us no matter the protestations of otherwise.

Well...I am not going to try and change your mind...but your not Paul...

Be careful what you paint with GRACE.

uhhh....I do not paint with grace...God does...Glory be to Him!!!

 

[smaller]

:yes I do...lol

Now I wouldn't think I would have to point this out...but...there were four different places the seeds fell. The birds were only at one of those spots...

Of course nearly everyone WANTS to exempt themselves from that actually happening within them. I will simply point out that when ANYONE hears and does not UNDERSTAND they have in fact been stolen from BY SATAN.

Did YOU understand EVERY LAST WORD of the BIBLE the moment you picked it up? I sure didn't. And in particular I also said to myself, surely that THEFT by SATAN did not happen to me, even while I was AWASH in non-understanding on many fronts and IGNORANT that proved the THEFT happened IN me.

We all understand ONLY IN PART which means we automatically do not UNDERSTAND everything IN FULL. I accept that the THEFT happened, happens and STILL happens. There is MUCH that I do not yet understand. And I also know my adversary in understandings ain't me or you...:yes

So no offense. The realities of those scriptures would probably also do a very fine job in explaining WHY there are so MANY DIVISIONS within Christianity and the 'real culprit' behind nearly ALL of these matters, imho.

Many years ago I did NOT accept that Satan stole Word from my heart. Today I do. And when JESUS brought this understanding to bear, it opened up a LOT of my darkness in regards to the scriptures when I saw that it was NOT JUST ME or my fellow believers who are engaged in these matters.

We do have a very real adversary. I will not limit that adversary to working only in the jungle somewhere on some sole individual blindman. The working is much more pervasive than just that.

Well...you read my mind..lol. Seriously though, you are right, its not a joke for some. But quite frankly the ONE group of people that the devil did come and steal away really don't care, and are more than likely not reading this right now. I would even venture to say that they are laughing at us for even talking about this.

You should understand that entire generations of the people of Israel were BLINDED in the same fashion that Jesus spoke of in the scriptures that I cited and for the SAME very very REAL reasons.

IF we cannot be honest about these facts for ourselves, I doubt our lack of honesty in understanding our previous blindness or our current PARTIAL sight/understandings would do anyone much of any good including ourselves. I believe this is just a portion of God inserting the truth of these facts into us and seeing honesty come forth. That is A FRUIT that is planted BY HIM alone, and even if we have to say, YIKES, I have been planted IN anti-spiritual DUNG before we figger it out. Til then the proverbial 'seed' abides ALONE in the DARK.

When it rises from the DIRT however, then THE TARES appeared also. I do SEE the tares much better NOW, and they are NOT my fellow man, but the children of the wicked one who COVER and BLIND the UNbelievers and partially OBSCURE all of us as well. In my previous blindness I always thought it was THE OTHER people who were blind, but SURELY not me.

I did know however that God in Christ DID loves me regardless and His Love has HELD me though these matters even while looking at these realities from a scriptural side of the ledgers that few seem able to come to grips with on a personal scale, even though it is as clear as a bell to me today.

He OBVIOUSLY did not take my seed away...or come to live in me...which is it? If he takes the seed away...then how does he stay...?

We are planted IN CORRUPTION, WEAKNESS and DISHONOUR. That IS the way HIS SEED is planted. He is FULLY ABLE to bring us UP from there. This does NOT require me to be blind to the realities of corruption, weakness and dishonour. That IS where I am presently planted. There is no use denying the obvious.

When Paul dissected the vessels of Romans 9 he described it as 'why have you made ME thus.' He then goes on to describe TWO entirely different vessels with entirely DIFFERENT fates.

Again, the inclination of BLINDNESS is to paint ourselves only with the VESSEL OF HONOR portion, not understanding that the EVIL PRESENT with is IS the vessel of dishonour IN our own lumps. One wheat/one tare...both growing from the same pile of DUST.

Now, I will not be to presumptuous to say that I could not have at one time been in one of the other areas the sower planted...but none of the others bore fruit...I have...therefore...

I acknowledge the difficulties in looking at these matters frankly and I know it is difficult because the power of darkness IS very real and very tangible in the directions of DENIAL that it happens TO US as believers. I have no further use for illusions in these matters, that's all. I know what happens because I believe what Jesus said is TRUE for ME.

Let me help you out with these references.

2Corinthians 4:3-4 [context please] "And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."

Romans 7:5 "For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code."

But I know that you are holding to the verse that says, "So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me." and "Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin."

Your correct. Sin is a bad bad thing, evil actually.

I take particular note that Paul described that indwelling sin as NO LONGER I. There are only TWO PARTIES disclosed in text in these matters. Mankind and devil kind. And they are BOTH in the same place in what appears to us on a surface view to be ONLY mankind. The reality is however that there are other entities involved WITHin mankind and those are DEVILS.

"For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing." So Paul makes this statement in between those two statements. He says that HE keeps on doing it...not satan...not evil...he keeps on doing it.

You are welcomed to blame Paul alone. I do not adhere to the EVIL PAUL theory.

Romans 11:6-11, [I like to keep things in context] "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day." And David says, "Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them; let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see, and bend their backs forever." So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous."

Well...I am not going to try and change your mind...but your not Paul...

Citing the scriptures is one thing. What we are led to see therein are entirely different matters. The scriptures will CONDEMN me long before I find any SELF justifications therein and they also POINT directly to THE CAUSE, that being SATAN.

uhhh....I do not paint with grace...God does...Glory be to Him!!!

The EVIL PRESENT and indwelling sin and the actions thereof that happened in SAUL as a blindman or PAUL as a PARTIAL see'er were NEVER painted with GRACE, nor was that Paul's intentions whatsoEVER. He just had an upfront and personal view of these matters and wrote to tell about these FACTS for our benefits.

Romans 6:15
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

A twisted conundrum develops very fast however when we realize that we cannot say WE HAVE NO SIN and be simultaneously IN TRUTH.

John the Apostle puts an even tighter choke hold on these matters (that has been WRITTEN OUT by ALTERATION of more recent translations) right here in the KJV:

1 John 3:
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

John goes immediately INTO connecting SIN to THE DEVIL in vs. 8. So yeah, we KNOW from that WHO is the SINNER and who is NOT.

Vessels of HONOUR do not sin.

Vessels of DISHONOUR do.

And both of these are IN THE SAME LUMP called 'me.'

enjoy!

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[savedbygrace57]

nathan:

But God does initiate the repentance.

Maybe your God just initiates repentance, but My Saviour gives His people repentance acts 5:


31Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

And in this blesses them in turning them from their iniquities acts 3:

26Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

 

[Nathan]

nathan:



Maybe your God just initiates repentance, but My Saviour gives His people repentance acts 5:


31Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

And in this blesses them in turning them from their iniquities acts 3:

26Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Uhh...He is not "my god". The GOD, the only GOD, does initiate repentance.

But you are very correct in the fact that He gives it also...

Is there a problem with Him initiating and giving...can the two be separated?

Initiation without giving leads to mans ability to carry out a "work" or "deed" for acceptance...right?

And thats what you think I believe about THE GOD?

Giving without initiation leads to a man repenting without ever knowing it...right?

Whooaa...you are way off base.

Not only does God initiate repentance He fulfills it in us.

If God only gave it then there takes no belief on our part. Therefore God saves who He wants and leaves the rest for fuel for the fires of hell...

If God initiates it...then waits for our belief in Him...then gives the full measure of it...hey...wait a minute...thats called repentance! Go figure...lol

The very definition of repentance depends on a man or woman "deciding for themselves" if they want to turn. Oh...I know the popular teachings... Calvinism... Armenianism...

Believe what you want, but that faith will not produce the fruit unto righteousness...if you want to know the truth...the truth will set you free.

Peace with God and Man...what a wonderful thing to have