Repentance (turning from our sin)

[watchman F]

Originally Posted by elijah23
We must ignore sinful thoughts that come into our minds.

I have not overcome sinful thoughts completely, but sinful thoughts lead us to sin. We have to overcome them.

I don't disagree. The fact is however that believers are perhaps even more involved with SIN thoughts because of our exposure to THE LIVING WORD and then SATAN'S IMMEDIATE ATTEMPTS at EVIL INTERVENTIONS in our minds.

We must do more than ignore them, we must take them captive casting them down bringing them into obediance to Christ.

2nd Coritnthians 10
3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds)
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

 

[watchman F]

I agree 100%. A person does need to "repent", to turn from their way of thinking, and to turn to God for guidance. I also agree with the other persons post that this is an ongoing thing, its just like being married. You marry someone once, you do not wake up each day and say "hey, lets get married again".

You are right we do make a once for a lifetime commentment to God, but we must continue in repentance until we have comepletely overcome all sin. (which according to scripture is possible, by dying to self and walking/ living in the Spirit)

 

[Nathan]

There are a lot of people who call themselves Christians who commit the sin of adultery, I believe.

I would also say there are a lot of people who call themselves Christians who commit the sin of pride.

I believe that Christians can commit sin, but not live in sin unknowingly. Let me explain that.

I believe that when a Born again believer sins, misses the mark, they know they are doing it. Therefore, it is plain rational thinking that if they realize they are sinning, they have not disagreed with God that their sin is bad, they are indeed agreeing still that the sin is bad. The born again believer cannot sin in that manner without knowing it.

Now, I do think the Bible talks about sins that a believer can commit without prior knowledge of. Do those sins mean that the person did not agree with God that they were wrong? No. They had no knowledge that they, for instance, were offending another person. How can they "repent" [turn away from their thinking of the bad thing being good] and turn to God. They have already turned to God.

Here again, we do not understand the definition of repentance. It is a turning from that which we believe to be the RIGHT way, which is the WRONG way, and turning to GOD and HIS WAY. It is a one shot deal. Unless, however, we again turn away from God and HIS WAY, and decide to go our way.

But the only way we can ever say we do not "believe" God's way is the right way is if the Spirit is not in us. If it is, He DOES NOT SIT BY AND NOT SAY ANYTHING.

 

[Nathan]

You are right we do make a once for a lifetime commentment to God, but we must continue in repentance until we have comepletely overcome all sin. (which according to scripture is possible, by dying to self and walking/ living in the Spirit)

I understand what you are saying, I really do. This is where I have been for a long time. But I got to the point where I wanted to understand what "repentance" is. Repentance is our turning away from who we are, we are not flesh, we are spirit that dwell in flesh.

Too many times we think of ourselves being flesh and "having" a soul. WRONG. We are a soul that inhabits flesh. When we[the real us] repents[making a decision that our way is the wrong way, His is the right one] we are "born again". "That which is flesh is flesh, that which is spirit is spirit".

When we walk in the Spirit WE WILL overcome the things of the flesh. Its not a maybe proposition, its a thing that will happen no matter what. When we repented from our SIN, our SIN being the fact that we could do something about our 'sins'. And trusted in Christ to pay the price for our SIN, it was a one shot deal.

We therefore have the Spirit of God in us. Guiding us, teaching us, training us, if indeed we have the Spirit in us. THAT is a constant thing that happens. In order for one to "repent" that one has to think that something is one way and then turn to another way.

We did that, cant you see? We said not that God is right about one thing or another, but He is right about EVERYTHING. Therefore, when we are walking through this life and temptation comes we decide to go after the desires of our flesh[which we live in] or we decide to do that which we ALREADY KNOW is wrong.

If we decide to do that which we ALREADY KNOW is wrong, we are not saying His way is not the right way, we are just choosing to not go the WAY WE ALREADY KNOW IS RIGHT.

Now, when the person finally decides to obey, doesn't that mean that they are "repenting"? No. They are just obeying, they already KNOW what is the right way.

The problem with the term "repentance" in a born again believers life is that it gives the idea that a born again believer can "fall away" without knowing they are doing so. No where in the Bible are you ever going to find that a regenerate person, who has the VERY SPIRIT OF GOD in them, can somehow wake up one day and say "wow...how did I get here".

Yet many people think that they can. So whats the answer? They "repent", they say "oops, sorry God, don't know how I got here, but hey, I am turning once again to you".

 

[elijah23]

I agree 100%. A person does need to "repent", to turn from their way of thinking, and to turn to God for guidance. I also agree with the other persons post that this is an ongoing thing, its just like being married. You marry someone once, you do not wake up each day and say "hey, lets get married again".

When Jesus tells us to repent, I think he means we are supposed to stop sinning.

 

[smaller]

Scripture that tells us to live sinless lives
Matthew 5:48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

There are scriptures and then there are conclusions. You have a conclusion that does not add up. Paul for example did not claim that the evil present with him was 'sinless' or that he had no indwelling sin or that the devil, the messenger of Satan was now 'sinless' with Paul.

In short, there can an IS two entirely separate matters going on. One with Paul, Gods child and one with the evil present, the messenger of Satan, the evil present WITH Paul.

It is entirely possible that Paul could be ONE THING and that DEVIL upon him quite another. The position therefore you cite above is NOT encompassing to the EVIL that is with believers or the influences of devils, which is NOT THEM/us.

The same GRACE of God and Perfection In Christ that is extended to believers is the same GRACE that can and does arouse the devil to RESIST SAME and both of these workings can and does transpire in ONE PLACE, that is within the flesh and mind and is done by TWO entirely separate beings/entities.

1st John 3
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.


Scriptures that say we are able to live sinlessly

And as stated, Paul NEVER extended that position to the evil present with him, the indwelling sin which power his body DID carry or the devil that was upon him.

What can be true for the one does not equate to true for the other.

Romans 8
3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit

1st Corinthians 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

Ephesians 6:11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil


Jude 24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless, Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy



Scripture that say we will be sinless when walking in the Spirit.
Romans 6:1-4
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?
3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Galatians 5:16
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

1st John 1:7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Scriptures that tell us to be humble while pursuing perfection
Phil 3
12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.
13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead,
14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you.

1st Corinthians 9
26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air.
27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

1st Corinthians 10:12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.

1st Corinthians 15:31 I affirm, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily


All thing are possible with God
Matthew 19:26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.â€

Ephesians 3:20Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

smaller, I think God's word has just prove your opinion incorrect.

I have found it is simply better to be truthful with my own thoughts and know that I am not alone in those thoughts, recognizing what is good and what is evil.

Anyone who does not divide themselves within in this way have only ONE to blame and when that person DOES evil, they have only themselves to look to.

I don't find that to be an accurate reflection of scripture 'within.'

Where the Word is sown, Satan assuredly ENTERS therein to STEAL, which is A SIN. You can claim you are without sin in THOUGHT WORD AND DEED and I will remain with my tongue in cheek.

Jes sayin.

enjoy!

s

 

[smaller]

Every sinful though is not sin,

Sorry, I don't believe that. Jesus taught that the thought of lust was adultery in heart.

it is temptation even jesus was tempted. Thought become sin when they become intentions

Uh, no, it was not the same temptation. Satan had 'NOTHING' 'in' Jesus. Jesus assuredly did NOT have 'lust thoughts' for women.

 

[smaller]

Theology might be a little off. Satan is not God. He is a being. He CANNOT be in more than one place at a time. He IS NOT omnipresent.

IF the devil is connected to every sin (the devil is connected by 1 John 3:8) this means that the DEVIL is simultaneously involved with MULTIPLE instances of sin. This does not entail any form of 'OMNIPRESENCE' for the DEVIL. The DEVIL however does have MANY assistants called 'children of the devil.'

No, No, No. We repent, turn to God, when we realize that there is NOTHING in and of us that can do ANYTHING to pay for our sins.

and that simply does not speak to the OTHER workings of EVIL that ARE of the devil. I will maintain that the will of man does not control another will (that of the DEVILS) that is not their own WILL anymore than I can control your will.

They are SEPARATE WILLS that work according to their OWN.

enjoy!

s

 

[Drew]

I agree, to a point. I believe that "final"(even though I would argue that salvation is just plain salvation) Salvation/justification is not based on deeds, but is proven by deeds. No, this is not just a play on words.

But Paul is quite clear here in Romans 2 - final salvation is indeed based on deeds. Note the use of the phrase "according to":

But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God "will give to each person according to what he has done."To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

What is your analysis of this text?

Jesus said "You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit." Matthew 7:16-18 ESV

A fruit does not make the tree what it is. I could go out and tie apples all over a orange tree, that would not make it an apple tree. I could plant an apple tree and pray, hope, believe that it will produce oranges...but it wont.

All true, but this is not any kind of argument against what Paul has said in Romans 2 (and elsewhere) - it will be the "deeds" that will be the basis for the final judgement. And in saying this, I do not deny that one must be "the right kind of tree". But Paul says what he says - final salvation is based on "deeds".

Deeds cannot guarantee anything, but they give a good indication of what the real thing is. Righteous people WILL do deeds of righteousness, and unrighteous people WILL NOT do deeds of righteousness. Either Jesus is telling the truth or He is lying. I believe He is telling the truth.

I, too, believe that Jesus is telling the truth. But this does not change the clear import of Paul's teaching - it will be "deeds" that will be the basis for final salvation even though those deeds are "evidence" of a changed nature, with such a change being achieved solely on the basis of faith.

I will address the rest of your post in a subsequent post.

 

[Nathan]

I think this goes, or should, back to the original choice we are faced with.

We are faced with the choice, every person called upon by God is faced with a choice. The choice is, are you going to believe in Jesus as the Christ.

John 6:39-40 ESV, "And this is the will of Him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that He has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in Him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day".

The decision we have to make is not whether or not we are going to stop sinning, that is an outcome of belief...true belief that is.

The belief that we must believe to receive eternal life is the belief that Jesus is the promised Messiah. The Savior. What people fail to understand is that belief encompasses so much. It encompasses the very facts of,#1 I am SIN FULL, #2 I cannot do anything to earn salvation, #3 He is the only way my 'sins' will be not counted against me, #4 He was buried, and so too was I [my old self, the flesh], #5 He was raised from the dead, and so too was I[me, my soul]

If we have believed these things, the GOSPEL, then we have repented and turned from our original thinking that was contrary to these things.

"Now I would remind you, brothers, of the Gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that He was buried, that He was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve". 1Corinthians 15:1-5

The references of why He had to be burried and then raised again are found throught the rest of Pauls writtings. They are numerous. But what I just listed is the boiled down version. It is not a one time belief without a continual belief. It is not a belief, forget, believe again, forget...that is vainity.

Do we stumble? YES!! WE SIN!! I am so glad John was lead to write 1John. Otherwise we might not understand that He is constantly before the Father in our place making intersession.

So is confession the same as repentance? "If we confess our sins He is faithful..." Well, I am not a real smart guy, but they do have some different letters that make up the words. And they do not sound the same when you say them. So I am going to have to conclude that they are different.

Confession is an outward expression of the knowledge of wrong doing.

Repentance is the outward expression of the realization of wrong doing.

Born again believers do not repent because the Spirit lives in us and we know what we do is wrong, we do not wake up one day and realize it.

 

[elijah23]

I think this goes, or should, back to the original choice we are faced with.

We are faced with the choice, every person called upon by God is faced with a choice. The choice is, are you going to believe in Jesus as the Christ.

It is necessary to believe in Jesus. Perhaps that is the first step.

Another step has to follow, I believe. We have to obey Jesus.

 

[Nathan]

But Paul is quite clear here in Romans 2 - final salvation is indeed based on deeds. Note the use of the phrase "according to":

But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God "will give to each person according to what he has done."To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

What is your analysis of this text?

Oh, this is a good text. "He will give to each according to what he has done. Those who by persistence in doing goodseek...."

Is seeking, the same as being? If you are something, or have something, do you seek it anymore? Ever lost your keys? Are you still seeking for them?

Ok, ok, so you might be saying, "he said 'those who by persistence in doing good', see they are 'doing' something." Am I right that you might be asking that question?

Well its a good question to ask, and it is where languages can get confused. Guess what the Verb, that is the action, of the sentence is? I will give you a hint, it is not 'doing' or 'persistence', it is the word seek. If you want you can look it up for yourself.

Seek implies that it is an ongoing process. An ongoing action of not obtaining what ever it is that the one is seeking, per say that is. Because in all actuality, it was placed upon us because of what Christ did. But as long as we are alive, we are to be pursuing it.

All true, but this is not any kind of argument against what Paul has said in Romans 2 (and elsewhere) - it will be the "deeds" that will be the basis for the final judgement. And in saying this, I do not deny that one must be "the right kind of tree". But Paul says what he says - final salvation is based on "deeds".


I, too, believe that Jesus is telling the truth. But this does not change the clear import of Paul's teaching - it will be "deeds" that will be the basis for final salvation even though those deeds are "evidence" of a changed nature, with such a change being achieved solely on the basis of faith.

I will address the rest of your post in a subsequent post.

I agree with you. It will be the deeds that will be what will "prove" to us and others that we were not fit for the kingdom of God. That is why it is complete nonsense to say, "I believe, it doesn't matter what I do now".

It does matter, because how in the world are you going to know whether or not you have believed in the right thing?????

So many people are dieing with the firm belief that they were "doing" the right thing. When we do believe the right thing, then the deeds will prove it. Then can we "assure our hearts before Him".

The deeds will happen, we can be assured of that. It is when we have faith and they are not happening. We cannot force them to happen. That is just not in line with the teachings. We are to use "deeds" as the measuring stick of where we are in faith.

If we do the deeds to ensure our faith, then its not faith. Faith cannot be seen, or else its not faith. But when we are walking this life of faith, and the fruit of the Spirit pours out in the form of deeds, we can look at them and glorify God for the work He is doing in us and through us.

If we do not have fruit we are near to being cursed and thrown into the fire.

 

[Nathan]

It is necessary to believe in Jesus. Perhaps that is the first step.

Another step has to follow, I believe. We have to obey Jesus.

Those two steps cannot be separated. And its not to just believe in Jesus...it is to believe in Jesus as the CHRIST! There were gobs of guys named Jesus, I even know a couple of them today. Tons of people "believe", believe a person named Jesus lived back then.

I am not sure if you are married, but hypothetical use that as an example;

Would your wife, or husband[not sure if you are a him or her, lol] say you are married if you only said to her, "honey I love you, and I want to marry you, and I believe you want to marry me, you have told me this. But hey, we do not actually have to "do anything", lets just say we are married"

Is that a true marriage?

Ok, so "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved..." All we have to do is believe right? And then the next step is to trust and obey, so on and so forth, right?

Who is the Lord? Who is the Christ? Who is Jesus? To believe in something requires action.

If you believed, truly believed, that you needed a drink of water to keep you alive, do you not drink it? Is it enough to say, "that water will keep me alive, I believe it". No, it requires action.

If we believe that Jesus is Lord, not just a Lord, but THE LORD, THE CHRIST, then we believe that He took our sins upon Himself, that is what the Scriptures declared would happen. It also means that seeing how we believe, if we truly do, we do not hold on to those sins, or that way of life. After all, He took it from us. Right? Is that not what you believe?

So, Paul makes the argument so clear, "...How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? We were buried therefore with Him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the Glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life". ESV Romans 6:2-4

This is where I think we get the idea of a two step process. The word "might" is translated in other versions as "should". It has the idea of we "could" but we wont necessarily.

Well, all you have to do is to look at the rest of Paul's writings and others to determine that it is not an option. It will happen. If it doesn't, then you have a problem. Cant force fruit to come onto a tree branch, you can only wait and enjoy it when it does.

 

[Drew]

deleted own post.

 

[elijah23]

Those two steps cannot be separated.

In 1973 I remembered that we were supposed to love the Lord with all our hearts, minds and souls, and I began trying to do that.

It wasn’t until 1985 that I began accepting the fact that the Lord wanted me to turn from my sin.

 

[Drew]

Seek implies that it is an ongoing process. An ongoing action of not obtaining what ever it is that the one is seeking, per say that is. Because in all actuality, it was placed upon us because of what Christ did. But as long as we are alive, we are to be pursuing it.

I agree. But notice what Paul is saying - he is saying that eternal will be given to those who engage in this "seeking" behaviour. In other words, the basis for the awarding of eternal is the presence of this behaviour of "seeking good", not something else. If we agree, then fine.

I agree with you. It will be the deeds that will be what will "prove" to us and others that we were not fit for the kingdom of God. That is why it is complete nonsense to say, "I believe, it doesn't matter what I do now".

I generally agree, except I would add that Romans 2:6-7 says that we do not only "prove" this to ourselves and others - God Himself uses the "seeking good" behaviour as the basis for ultimate salvation.

So many people are dieing with the firm belief that they were "doing" the right thing. When we do believe the right thing, then the deeds will prove it.

I agree, but Paul still means what he says - it will be "behaviour" that is basis for granting eternal life, even though that behaviour arises in virtue of our being transformed by God through faith alone.

I get the sense that we are in general agreement. I still want to deal with your mentioning of the "workman" from Romans 4.

 

[Nathan]

Ok, lol

 

[Nathan]

In 1973 I remembered that we were supposed to love the Lord with all our hearts, minds and souls, and I began trying to do that.

It wasn’t until 1985 that I began accepting the fact that the Lord wanted me to turn from my sin.

The Gospel remains the same, it is unchanging. The fact that God was working in your life at one point and it did not bear fruit till another, does not negate the oneness of the Gospel message.

Salvation is not brought about by "trying to love God". That is not the basis of Salvation. Salvation is just that, Salvation. Salvation is being saved, not being loving, or kind, or good.

Salvation REQUIRES the acknowledgement of SIN.

If you do not acknowledge sin, if you do not think that sin is wrong, that sin is not what is keeping you from a relationship with God, then why do you need salvation?

If you do acknowledge sin as wrong, that it does keep you away from God, then why would you think that you do not have to turn away from it?

It makes no sense. Unless...we are told we need to be good for God to love us.

Huh??? While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. We were dead in our sins, dead as dead can be, but because of the great love with which He loved us, he made us alive.

Notice, it is not our love toward Him that is salvation, it is His love toward us. It is only by faith in His love, His provision, His salvation, only by that faith He gives us, can we recieve His forgiveness.

Being good, being convicted, being as honest as we know how does not give us salvation. ALL our righteousness [good works] are as filthy and filthy can get.

I am sorry, and do not doubt, that it took you so long to realize that He wanted you to turn from your sins. It took me a while before I realized it. Thank Him that the is patient with us.

 

[Nathan]

I agree. But notice what Paul is saying - he is saying that eternal will be given to those who engage in this "seeking" behaviour. In other words, the basis for the awarding of eternal is the presence of this behaviour of "seeking good", not something else. If we agree, then fine.


I generally agree, except I would add that Romans 2:6-7 says that we do not only "prove" this to ourselves and others - God Himself uses the "seeking good" behaviour as the basis for ultimate salvation.


I agree, but Paul still means what he says - it will be "behaviour" that is basis for granting eternal life, even though that behaviour arises in virtue of our being transformed by God through faith alone.

I get the sense that we are in general agreement. I still want to deal with your mentioning of the "workman" from Romans 4.

The "basis" for His giving us eternal life is NOTHING other than His love. Period. Now, we can say it is because of this or that, but its not going to change the fact that while we were DEAD in our SINS He called to us, and sent His only Son to DIE for us WHILE WE WERE STILL IN SIN.

Its His love. We CANNOT earn ANYTHING that has to deal with eternal life. Which is why it gets all over me that people think WE HAVE IT IN OUR POSSESSION. We do not. HE does.

Other than that we agree.

 

[Nathan]

Not sure what you are talking about with the reference to Romans 4