Reprobation

[savedbygrace57]

In the New test also !


This purpose of God hardening His enemies and the purpose to destroy them is seen in the NT as well..

Jn 12:37-40

37But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:


38That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

39Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

2 Thess 2:11-12

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

It is True that the hardening here is Judical, but the fact is, they were never given by God a New Heart to be prepared for the reception of spiritual truth..

 

[savedbygrace57]

That they may Believe a Lie !


2 Thessalonians 2:11

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

It's no doubt that the scripture of truth teaches that their are some of those that God Himself sends a strong delusion that they should believe a Lie !

Some translate it as the ESV 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Now if this is True, how do those who believe 1 Tim 2:4 and 2 Pet 3:9 applies to all without exception , that they come to a knowledge of the Truth ; when its plainly stated that God sends purposely to some that they be deceived and believes what is false !


The greek word for lie means:

1. conscious and intentional falsehood

Also, consider, if God Loved an individual, why would He at anytime purposely see to it that they be deceived and believe what is false ?

I personally do not believe God Loves such individuals !

 

[savedbygrace57]

Ordained of old to condemnation !

Jude 1:4

For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Scriptures speak of those of old ordained unto condemnation. Now what does of old mean ? It certainly can mean before the world began, and that would speak of eternal reprobation. The word ordained means to write beforehand ! Well who wrote beforehand ? God wrote beforehand in His decree's of Eternity, as He wrote names in heaven before the foundation Lk 10:20

20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

Phil 4:3

3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.

Rev 17:8

8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.So I believe those names not written of old in the book of life, were of old written in the book of those made for condemnation, the wicked for the day of evil Prov 16:4, the vessels of wrath Rom 9:22, those born to be taken and destroyed 2 Pet 2:12

I have biblical support for this conviction !

The Learned John Gill writes:

Quote:
the date of this act is "of old"; or as the Syriac version renders it, (ayrwv Nm) , "from the beginning"; that is, from eternity; see (2 Thessalonians 2:13) (Proverbs 8:22) ; for reprobation is of the same date with election; if the one is from eternity, the other must be so too, since there cannot be one without the other: if some were chosen before the foundation of the world, others must be left or passed by as early; and if some were appointed unto salvation from the beginning, others must be foreordained to condemnation from the beginning also;

 

[rainbows]

Reprobation, in Christian theology, is a corollary to the Calvinistic doctrine of unconditional election which derives that some of mankind (the elect) are predestined by God for salvation. Therefore, the remainder are left bound to their fallen nature and certain damnation. This same state of unbelief is also known as reprobation. In Calvinist terminology, the non-elect are often referred to as the reprobate. Similarly, when a sinner is so hardened as to feel no remorse or misgiving of conscience, it is considered as a sign of reprobation. (wikipedia)

Is Romans Rom 9:17-22 discussing reprobation, that is the non-elect are left bound in their fallen nature because they were not elected to salvation?

We will examine Romans 9 in context to see whether reprobation is supported.

Romans 9

30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works.

So as we can see from Romans 9:30-32 Paul is in fact explaining who
the vessels are, one for honorable use (by faith) and another for common use(by works). This is the contextual reading of Romans 9. Not the individual election by God's choice.

Romans 9:11

...so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls.

God's choice, God's elect, those who accept the righteousness of Christ. This was the promise that God made to us, through His messiah. The clay for common use is those who attempt to achieve righteousness through their own effort, works and self justification.

Is this promise for all humanity? Yes. God has no favorites.

Romans 10

12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “ Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.â€

Context determines how Romans 9 is understood.

 

[savedbygrace57]

He will harden the reprobates heart !


God has made certain People, and that for His Glory, and to make His Power known, for destruction, and that everlastingly 2 Thess 1:9

Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

These are the vessels of wrath alluded to by Paul in the Romans Letter Rom 9:22

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

God must fit them for destruction, and in so doing, He hardens their heart against His counsel Deut 2:30

But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the Lord thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.

Notice who it is said to have hardened this Kings heart and to make or cause it to be obstinate, was it not said to be the LORD thy God ? God did this for a purpose, that He might deliver [ in justice] this king into their hands. If God wanted to because He holds the Kings hearts in His Hand, Prov 21:1

The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

God could have if it served His Purpose, softened the heart of this king !

You see, when God hardens one heart, that one in turn hardens their own heart, like Pharaoh did, and so fit themselves for destruction in agreement with the Purpose of God !

 

[savedbygrace57]

His Purpose is to destroy them !


Those whom God has purposed to destroy, He hardens their hearts against His Counsel making or causing them to fit themselves for destruction, that they make themselves blameworthy, this is seen here Joshua 11:19-20

There was not a city that made peace with the children of Israel, save the Hivites the inhabitants of Gibeon: all other they took in battle.

20 For it was of the Lord to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the Lord commanded Moses.

Take notice as to who did the hardening of hearts, and why ! Because God had purposed their utter destruction ! If God so pleased He could have soften their hearts to be gracious to Israel, but God purposed to harden their hearts instead, to fit them to destruction. This Illustrates what it means to be vessels of wrath being fitted for destruction Rom 9:22

 

[John O]

His Purpose is to destroy them !


Those whom God has purposed to destroy, He hardens their hearts against His Counsel making or causing them to fit themselves for destruction, that they make themselves blameworthy, this is seen here Joshua 11:19-20

There was not a city that made peace with the children of Israel, save the Hivites the inhabitants of Gibeon: all other they took in battle.

20 For it was of the Lord to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the Lord commanded Moses.

Take notice as to who did the hardening of hearts, and why ! Because God had purposed their utter destruction ! If God so pleased He could have soften their hearts to be gracious to Israel, but God purposed to harden their hearts instead, to fit them to destruction. This Illustrates what it means to be vessels of wrath being fitted for destruction Rom 9:22

Contrast your take on this with 2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I like Peter's version over yours.

John O

 

[savedbygrace57]

Jacob have I loved, easu have I hated !

Rom 9:13

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

God's hate of a person, is a rejection of that person or persons as being of His Beloved Ones !

2 Thess 2:11-14

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

All of God's Beloved Ones shall experience belief of the Truth, because they had been chosen to salvation, whereas the ones in vs 12 had not !

 

[reba]

Contrast your take on this with 2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I like Peter's version over yours.

John O

A question, who is Peters 'us'?

2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[savedbygrace57]

reba

A question, who is Peters 'us'?

The Elect of God !

 

[John O]

A question, who is Peters 'us'?

2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

To all as highlighted above

John O

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Is reprobation taught in the bible ? Should it be included in the Gospel message?

This very important truth is taught in romans 9 and other parts of the bible. BTW, Romans chapters 1-11 is the Gospel of Jesus Christ in its theological perspective. There Just is no gospel of christ , if there is no theology of the same. Rom 1-11 , moreso than any other book of the bible reveals who christ is and what he has accomplished and for whom and why ! These things must be realized in believing on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Rom 9:17-22

17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Vessels of wrath are the reprobated , those are the ones that God made and or caused them to be born, for the sole purpose of demonstrating His wrath and sending them to Hell for there sins. 2 Pet also says

12But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

The word made is the same word we get born. All of mankind falls into one or two groups of people ! # 1 Vessels of mercy or # 2 Vessels of wrath.

There is no in between and both have been determined by God before we were born , and not based on anything foreseen in any of us [ we were all clay] But based soley on His Divine pleasure...

Still trying to put blame on God for the lost.

Jer 18:8,10 and 2 Tim 2:20,21 shows that obedience or disobedience to God's will is how God determines what type of vessel each man is.

 

[smaller]

My main beef with the views of double predestination positions is this.

Obviously 'vessels of honor' still do and perform works of the 'vessels of dishonor'

but

That's apparently OK for them to do. They are still vessels of 'honor?'

Paul clearly states that we ourselves are to purge ourselves of the vessel of 'dishonor.' His statement of fact on this fact is found in 2nd Timothy 2:

20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

The notion that the vessel of dishonor is not 'with us' to be purged from and is some other person is simply not true.

Determinists seem to bypass this fact, and they seek to lay the vessel of dishonor on some other person.

Paul was clear about the conditions of ALL of our planting as believers in 1 Cor. 15. Some will hear that we are factually planted with dishonor:

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Some other person? Uh, no. We PURGE OURSELVES of that vessel by DOING WHAT IS GOOD AND RIGHT.

Many determinist views results in making excuses for the vessel of dishonor doing works and actions in the vessel of honor.

enjoy!

smaller

Is reprobation taught in the bible ? Should it be included in the Gospel message?

This very important truth is taught in romans 9 and other parts of the bible. BTW, Romans chapters 1-11 is the Gospel of Jesus Christ in its theological perspective. There Just is no gospel of christ , if there is no theology of the same. Rom 1-11 , moreso than any other book of the bible reveals who christ is and what he has accomplished and for whom and why ! These things must be realized in believing on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Rom 9:17-22

17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Vessels of wrath are the reprobated , those are the ones that God made and or caused them to be born, for the sole purpose of demonstrating His wrath and sending them to Hell for there sins. 2 Pet also says

12But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

The word made is the same word we get born. All of mankind falls into one or two groups of people ! # 1 Vessels of mercy or # 2 Vessels of wrath.

There is no in between and both have been determined by God before we were born , and not based on anything foreseen in any of us [ we were all clay] But based soley on His Divine pleasure...

 

[savedbygrace57]

Still trying to put blame on God for the lost.

Jer 18:8,10 and 2 Tim 2:20,21 shows that obedience or disobedience to God's will is how God determines what type of vessel each man is.

You do not believe or preach the True Gospel unless you preach reprobation !

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

You do not believe or preach the True Gospel unless you preach reprobation !

One is preaching anything but the gospel when he puts blame upon God for the lost.

 

[Elijah674]

One is preaching anything but the gospel when he puts blame upon God for the lost.

Hi, you are kind of mild as touching an extremely false posting such as this one (S!), so I doubt that you can do much good with this one post!

Isa. 58
[1] Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins.
[2] Yet they seek me daily, and delight to know my ways, as a nation that did righteousness, and forsook not the ordinance of their God: they ask of me the ordinances of justice; they take delight in approaching to God. ..' (much more!)

Isa. 59
[1] Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
[2] But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
[3] For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; [[your lips have spoken lies:seehearspeak]], your tongue hath muttered perverseness.

--Elijah

 

[savedbygrace57]

Without Hope !

Eph 2:12

That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

All are without hope by Nature, that is experientially, but the Elect of God, will be given experiential hope because of the resurrection of Christ from the dead, by which they shall be begotten again unto a lively hope. 1 Pet 1:3

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

This is speaking of God's Elect as we know from 1 Pet 1:1-2 !

But those who are of the non elect, are without hope period, and are the vessels of wrath created for destruction !

 

[John O]

Without Hope !

Eph 2:12

That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

All are without hope by Nature, that is experientially, but the Elect of God, will be given experiential hope because of the resurrection of Christ from the dead, by which they shall be begotten again unto a lively hope. 1 Pet 1:3

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

This is speaking of God's Elect as we know from 1 Pet 1:1-2 !

But those who are of the non elect, are without hope period, and are the vessels of wrath created for destruction !

We are all so glad that God made His grace available to all so that none might perish. God of mercy we give you the glory.

John O

 

[savedbygrace57]

God has hid Truth from some and Jesus rejoiced !

Lk 10:21

21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

Why did Jesus Thank His Father for hiding Salvation matters from some, the wise and the prudent ?

Also a similar scripture states Matt 11:25-27

25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.

27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Mk 4:11

11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

This is discriminate revelation to some and not to others based on God's Sovereign Will alone, and this is what Jesus rejoiced in Spirit concerning.

Now the Gospel Mysteries are hid to them that are Lost 2 Cor 4:4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

The word hid here is from the same root as that word hid from the Text Lk 10:21, but the added connotation here in Corinthians is that of to hinder the Knowledge of a thing, to veil !

The only way one will have these Gospel Mysteries revealed to them is if they are one of the ones of Lk 10:20

Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

Those are the ones which are within as opposed to those without Mk 4:11

That word without, literally means without, out of doors, like in the parable those who are lost Matt 25:10-11

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

You see, they were without, always had been, they just did not know it until now ! They are the same as here Matt 7:22-23

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

They were never within God's discriminate Love found only in His electing in Christ before the foundation of the World !

 

[John O]

God has hid Truth from some and Jesus rejoiced !

Lk 10:21

21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

Why did Jesus Thank His Father for hiding Salvation matters from some, the wise and the prudent ?

Also a similar scripture states Matt 11:25-27

25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.

27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Mk 4:11

11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

This is discriminate revelation to some and not to others based on God's Sovereign Will alone, and this is what Jesus rejoiced in Spirit concerning.

Now the Gospel Mysteries are hid to them that are Lost 2 Cor 4:4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

The word hid here is from the same root as that word hid from the Text Lk 10:21, but the added connotation here in Corinthians is that of to hinder the Knowledge of a thing, to veil !

The only way one will have these Gospel Mysteries revealed to them is if they are one of the ones of Lk 10:20

Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

Those are the ones which are within as opposed to those without Mk 4:11

That word without, literally means without, out of doors, like in the parable those who are lost Matt 25:10-11

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

You see, they were without, always had been, they just did not know it until now ! They are the same as here Matt 7:22-23

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

They were never within God's discriminate Love found only in His electing in Christ before the foundation of the World !

They were never within God's discriminate Love found only in His electing in Christ before the foundation of the World !

Not what the word of God says

John O