Responding to Dave Hunt's Pretribulationism (Pt.2)

[Judy]

June 4, 2006

Responding to Dave Hunt's Pretribulationism (Pt.2)

We continue our response to Dave Hunt’s “critique†of the Prewrath Rapture. After a couple more installments responding to his critique, we will begin to examine his other pretribulational material. We continue,
We have previously given numerous reasons why the church must be raptured at the beginning of the seven-year tribulation period.
“Numerous reasons� No, they were simply assertions; further, he failed to cite one single Biblical text to support his assertion that the “church must be raptured at the beginning of the 'seven-year tribulation period.'" I would like to challenge Hunt by asking him to provide just one Biblical text that teaches that the rapture will occur before the “seven-year†tribulation period. This is the nature of Tradition... repeat a particular assertion and over-time it becomes assumed, and consequently, a desire to give a Biblical defense is lessened. Surprisingly, it took half way into his article to even mention the Prewrath Rapture position. He says,
Once the dominant belief among evangelicals, the pretrib Rapture is falling increasingly into disfavor. The latest attack upon this belief is found in Marvin Rosenthal's book The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church: A New Understanding of the Rapture, the Tribulation and the Second Coming. This book's novel ideas cannot be supported by Scripture, and Rosenthal's attempts to do so create numerous contradictions.
i) Hunt suggests here that many pretribers are becoming prewrathers. I must take the occasion here to highlight Tim LaHaye's failed prediction about the Prewrath Rapture. Back in the early nineties in his book No Fear of the Storm he says on page page 113, "I predict it [Prewrath Rapture position] will prove to be an aberrant brainstorm that, despite its deep-pocketed two-year promotional campaign, will fade away before it becomes a fad."

I would council against anyone taking investment advice from LaHaye. Not only did the Prewrath Rapture view not "fade away," but over 15 years later it has become a popular and established view of the Rapture since then---not to mention that it is ironically the pretrib view that has lost popularity over the recent years. Interestingly, LaHaye gets personal by mentioning a "deep-pocketed two-year promotional campaign." This is rather hypocritical of LaHaye being that his own Left Behind series is an omnipresent promotional campaign with no end in site.

ii) Now, let me just stop a moment and say that in mature, responsible, and scholarly critiques of a position it is incumbent upon the person giving the critique to adequately explain the other person’s position so the readers can follow the argument. This entails citing texts and arguments that the other position uses to support their premises. Does Dave Hunt do this? Nope.

iii) He said, “that this position cannot be supported by Scripture.†So, I would expect Dave Hunt to interact with the position and Prewrath literature that he says lacks support. Where are these contradictions and Scriptural proofs? We are not told.

Rosenthal, long a confirmed pretribulationalist, has abandoned that position and "now believes that the Church will have to endure the persecution of the Antichrist." His basic thesis is that the church will "not escape all of the oppression of the 'Tribulation' period," but "will escape the wrath of God, which will be poured out...during the second half of the 'Tribulation' period."
Here is a perfect example in which Dave Hunt has all the facts in front of him to properly represent the Prewrath Rapture, yet he refuses to do so. Hunt fails to explain that the Prewrath Rapture does not believe that the “tribulation period†is all equally “oppression,†whatever that means.

Further, he says that this is the basic thesis. Again, he is in error. No mention that the Prewrath position holds that the Great Tribulation begins at the midpoint and which will continue for some unknown duration of time and thenâ€â€we do not know the day or hourâ€â€it will be cut short with the Coming of Christ, which the righteous will be delivered and the subsequent Day of the Lord's wrath will commence. Now how easy would it have been for Hunt to give that most basic description, let alone a fuller explanation of it? Hunt continues,

Numerous problems immediately arise. Since the Antichrist, according to Rosenthal, must appear first, the church is no longer watching and waiting for Christ but for Antichrist.
According to Rosenthal? No, according to the apostle Paul and our Lord,
Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
Matthew 24:15 "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel-- let the reader understandâ€â€
Both Jesus and Paul exhort us to look for the appearing of the Antichrist as a sign. Not because the Antichrist is our rescuer or deliverer, on the contrary, Antichrist is our persecutor. So it is not either/or for Jesus and Paul, as it is for Hunt. We keep alert for Antichrist so as to evade being deceived; we look for Christ to embrace his victory. These events can occur in any generation of the church, and therefore the revealing of the Antichrist will be a sign that our Lord’s return is ever so near.

In light of Hunt' teaching, Paul's words are fitting, "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction." 2 Thessalonians 2:3 In our next installment responding to Hunt, we hope to see some of this "Scriptural support" that he says is out there, and hopefully some meaningful interaction with the Prewrath position, which we have not seen as of yet.

Posted by Alan Kurschner on 06/ 4/06 @ 12:31 PM

http://www.prewrathrapture.com/2006/06/ ... bulati.php

 

[Quasar]

The Pre-trib rapture of the Church

Hi friends,

This is in full support of Dave Hunt's expository about the coming rapture of the Church, which all comes directly from the Word of God, not from McDonald, Darby or anyone else in the mid 19th century as has been alleged.



The prophetic chronological timing of end times events as outlined in the Bible are as follows:

1. The tribulation is revealed in Jer.30:7, referred to as Jacob's Trouble.

2. In God's revelation to the prophet Daniel, through the angel Gabriel, the 70 'weeks' of years He has decreed upon the entire history of Israel, the length of time involved in the tribulation is revealed, along with the person who will set it off. The antichrist, who will establish a seven year covenant with them. Dan.9:27.

3. Jesus confirmation of Daniel's 70th and final 'week,' consisting of the abomination that causes desolation, in His ministry to the 'lost sheep of Israel. Mt.24:15. Mt.24, Mk.13 and Lk.21 are all Jesus teachings to Israel about His Second Coming to the earth and has nothing whatever to do with either His Church or a rapture.

4. The fig trees have sprouted leaves, we can see for ourselves and know that summer is near. Lk.21:29. Which began with the new nation of Israel, when it was established on May 14, 1948.

5. The Christian Church of Jesus Christ will be raptured, consisting of everyone who believes in Jesus Christ as Lord, regardless of denomination, or no denomination at all, as taught by both Jesus as well as the apostle Paul. Jn.14:2-4, 28, 1 Thes.4:14-18, Rev.3:10 and 4:1-2. All those who died in Christ through those who are still alive at His return for His Church.

6. The rapture of the Christian Church of Jesus Christ preceding the revealing of the Antichrist, who then immediately triggers the 70th and final week in God's decree upon Israel, the seven years of tribulation. 2 Thes.2:3-8, in perfect harmony with Dan.9:27. Which makes the timing of the rapture abundantly clear, as to Pre-trib and can not occur at any other time.

7. The Christian Church of Jesus Christ is in heaven, symbolically illustrated by the apostle John in Rev.4:1-2, while the tribulation is taking place and is not heard about again until the wedding with the Lamb [Jesus Christ] takes place with His Bride, the Church, in heaven. Rev.19:7-8.

8. Jesus returns from heaven - with His Church following Him on white horses, and dressed in fine linen, which stands for the righteous acts of the saints, white and clean - in His Second Coming to the earth. Zech.14:4-5, Jude 14, and Rev.19:14. [NIV]

9. Jesus ends the war of Armageddon, saves the remnant of Israel, who then recognize Him as their Messiah [Zech.12:10, and 'all Israel [A remnant] will be saved' [Rom.11:26]. The Antichrist and false prophet along with their armies are defeated and the two of them are thrown into the lake of fire, and their armies are all killed by the sword. Rev.19:20-21.

10. Satan is caught and thrown into the Abyss for the 1,000 years that Jesus will reign, in His kingdom here on the earth. Rev.20:1-3.

11. The first resurrection takes place which consists of all those who were martyred during the tribulation. They were not believers in Jesus Christ at the time the tribulation began. Therefore, they do not belong to the Christian Church that was raptured previously. They will be priests of God and of Christ, and rule with Him for 1,000 years. Rev.20:4-6.

12. The Millennial Kingdom of Christ will consist of all those who survived the tribulation, besides the resurrected martyrs, and all the remnant of Israel. In numbers alone, from an estimated original 7 billion people, there will only be 2.3 billion remaining. Life expectancy will be greatly increased. Isa.65:20 and 11:6-9.

13. Satan will be released from the Abyss to once again go out to deceive the nations and people as the 1,000 year Kingdom reign of Christ on the earth ends. He will gather millions of people who come against God's people at Jerusalem. But God sends fire from heaven, as He did at Sodom and Gomorrah, destroying them and throwing Satan into the lake of fire. Rev.20:10.

14. The second resurrection takes place that consists of all the Godless and wicked and the great white throne is set up to judge them, right here on earth. The sea, death and Hades all give up their dead and will then be thrown into the lake of fire. Meaning, that all who were in the 'temporal holding tanks' of Sheol, Hades and Hell will be removed to face judgement, and along with death, disposed of forever. For all those who participate in the second resurrection, if their name is not found in the book of life, they will be thrown into the lake of fire. Rev.20:11-15.

15. The old heaven and earth passes away and God creates an all new heaven and earth, and the new eternal city of Jerusalem descends from heaven. Rev.21:1.

The rest of chapter 21 alludes to a description of the coming eternal city and life of all believers who will be with the Lord forever.

Blessings

Quasar

 

[preterist]

1.The tribulation is revealed in Jer.30:4-7, referred to as Jacob's Trouble.

Not hardly, read the context.

2.In God's revelation to the prophet Daniel, through the angel Gabriel, the 70 'weeks' of years He has decreed upon the entire history of Israel,

70 weeks with no man made gap.

The antichrist, who will establish a seven year covenant with them. Dan.9:27

.

No mention of anti-christ anywhere in the text.

3.Jesus confirmation of Daniel's 70th and final 'week,' consisting of the abomination that causes desolation, in His ministry to the 'lost sheep of Israel. Mt.24:15. Mt.24, Mk.13 and Lk.21 are all Jesus teachings to Israel about His Second Coming to the earth

Wrong again. What does "this generation" mean?

4.The fig trees have sprouted leaves, we can see for ourselves and know that summer is near. Lk.21:29. Which began with the new nation of Israel, when it was established on May 14, 1948.

Who are the other “trees�

Luk 21:29 And he spake to them a parable: Behold the fig tree, and all the trees:

Notice it says when “THEY†shoot forth:

Luk 21:30 when they now shoot forth, ye see it and know of your own selves that the summer is now nigh.

So did all the other nations become nations in 1948 as well?

What does “nigh†mean?

G1451
ἐγγύς
eggus
eng-goos'
From a primary verb ἄγχω agchō (to squeeze or throttle; akin to the base of G43); near (literally or figuratively, of place or time): - from, at hand, near, nigh (at hand, unto), ready

It is also used here:

Jam 5:8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

So does it have a different meaning in James than it does in Luke? If “nigh†doesn’t mean near/soon in James, then why does it mean near/soon in Luke?

5.The Christian Church of Jesus Christ will be raptured, consisting of everyone who believes in Jesus Christ as Lord, regardless of denomination, or no denomination at all, as taught by both Jesus as well as the apostle Paul. Jn.14:2-4, 28, 1 Thes.4:14-18, Rev.3:10 and 4:1-2. All those who died in Christ through those who are still alive at His return for His Church.

Then this would be the second coming and there will be a third that follows this.

6.The rapture of the Christian Church of Jesus Christ preceding the revealing of the Antichrist, who then immediately triggers the 70th and final week in God's decree upon Israel, the seven years of tribulation. 2 Thes.2:3-8, in perfect harmony with Dan.9:27. Which makes the timing of the rapture abundantly clear, as to Pre-trib and can not occur at any other time.

The “he†of Daniel 9:27 refers to the “prince†of verse 26, the “prince†of verse 26 refers to the “Messiah†of verse 25. You have the Messiah being an anti-christ.

The man Paul refers to was alive and well 2000 years ago:

2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Where exactly is that gap found in Daniel 9?

7.The Christian Church of Jesus Christ is in heaven, symbolically illustrated by the apostle John in Rev.4:1-2, while the tribulation is taking place and is not heard about again until the wedding with the Lamb [Jesus Christ] takes place with His Bride, the Church, in heaven. Rev.19:7-8.

So this proves the rapture?

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

No need to make more of the passage than is there.

8.Jesus returns from heaven - with His Church following Him on white horses, and dressed in fine linen, which stands for the righteous acts of the saints, white and clean - in His Second Coming to the earth. Zech.14:4-5, Jude 14, and Rev.19:14. [NIV]

So you are saying this isn’t His final coming,but the rapture?

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

9.Jesus ends the war of Armageddon, saves the remnant of Israel, who then recognize Him as their Messiah [Zech.12:10, and 'all Israel [A remnant] will be saved' [Rom.11:26]. The Antichrist and false prophet along with their armies are defeated and the two of them are thrown into the lake of fire, and their armies are all killed by the sword. Rev.19:20-21.

Ooops, one problem. Scripture says Zech. 12:10 was fulfilled at the Crosss:

Joh 19:37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

10.Satan is caught and thrown into the Abyss for the 1,000 years that Jesus will reign, in His kingdom here on the earth. Rev.20:1-3.

Will that be an observable event?

Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

11.The first resurrection takes place which consists of all those who were martyred during the tribulation. They were not believers in Jesus Christ at the time the tribulation began. Therefore, they do not belong to the Christian Church that was raptured previously. They will be priests of God and of Christ, and rule with Him for 1,000 years. Rev.20:4-6.

So how many resurrections are there? And what form do the saints have when they return with Him? Will they want their worm-eaten bodies back?

12.The Millennial Kingdom of Christ will consist of all those who survived the tribulation, besides the resurrected martyrs, and all the remnant of Israel. In numbers alone, from an estimated original 7 billion people, there will only be 2.3 billion remaining. Life expectancy will be greatly increased. Isa.65:20 and 11:6-9.

So then, the Millennial Kingdom is the New Heavens and New Earth?

13.Satan will be released from the Abyss to once again go out to deceive the nations and people as the 1,000 year Kingdom reign of Christ on the earth ends. He will gather millions of people who come against God's people at Jerusalem. But God sends fire from heaven, as He did at Sodom and Gomorrah, destroying them and throwing Satan into the lake of fire. Rev.20:10

.

That pesky Satan. How many times must he be destroyed?

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

14.The second resurrection takes place that consists of all the Godless and wicked and the great white throne is set up to judge them, right here on earth. The sea, death and Hades all give up their dead and will then be thrown into the lake of fire. Meaning, that all who were in the 'temporal holding tanks' of Sheol, Hades and Hell will be removed to face judgement, and along with death, disposed of forever. For all those who participate in the second resurrection, if their name is not found in the book of life, they will be thrown into the lake of fire. Rev.20:11-15.

Lets see, the first resurrection you have those martyred during the tribulation, the second resurrection you have all the Godless, so when does my Christian Grandpa get resurrected? Come to think of it when does Paul get resurrected?

I thought death was already disposed of:

2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

15.The old heaven and earth passes away and God creates an all new heaven and earth, and the new eternal city of Jerusalem descends from heaven. Rev.21:1.

Is this the same New Heavens and New Earth found in Isaiah 65&66? No it can’t be, you already used that one. Is this the same New Jerusalem the angel tells John is the Church?


Rev 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

 

[Quasar]

Rapture of the Church vs Jesus 2nd Coming

Preterist

1. Quite right; it was a typo and intended to be vs 7 only. It has been corrected.

2. God's decree was for the entire remaining destiny of Israel, until vs 24 is fulfilled. "To finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness..." Which will not take place until the Second Coming of Christ. NONE OF WHICH HAS TAKEN PLACE YET! They ceased to be a nation when they rejected their Messiah and were scattered into a world wide diaspora in 70 A.D., until May 14, 1948. 1,878 years before becoming the nation of Israel once again. The following is a breakdown of Daniel's 70 weeks of years prophecy:


The following is a complete analysis Of the amazing prophecy found in the book of Daniel. We will begin in Dan.9:24 where the angel Gabriel is giving this prophecy to Daniel, the prophet.

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and the prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

1. Referrence here is to what God has decreed upon Daniel's people, Israel. (It has nothing at all to do with the church!)

2. See Gen.29:27 to explain that this biblical term of "one week" equals seven years. So the 70 weeks here, represents a total of 490 years, or 7 X 70.)

Vs.25. "Know, therefore, and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah, the Prince, shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks; (49 + 420 + 14 = 483 years, covering 69 of the 70 weeks,) the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times." (See Neh.1:6.)

According to the Royal Observatory, Greenwich, England, the exact date of King Artaxerxes, of Persia, gave the decree for some of the Israeli exiles to return to Jerusalem on March 14, 445 BC.

From the 69 weeks (Of years) from above, or 483 years, multiplied by the 360 days of the Hebrew year, equals 173,880 days.

Vs.26. "And after threescore and two weeks (Following the first 7 weeks, or 49 years to complete the rebuilding of the second temple and to restore and build Jerusalem.) shall Messiah be cut off, but not for Himself; (This culminates at a total of 69 weeks, or 483 years from the Persian King, Artaxerxes Decree on March 14th, 445 BC.) and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary, and the end of it shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

After Jesus has been crucified, the Roman (prince) Titus comes with his legions and destroys Jerusalem and the second temple in 70 AD, after bitter fighting, scattering Israel and the Jewish people into their diaspora.

To establish the time Jesus began His ministry, and approximate age, we find the evidence in Luke 3:1 and 3:23.

Lk.3:1. "Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilot being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip, tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Thrachonitis and Lysanias, the tetrarch of Abilene, Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John, the son of Zacharias, in the wilderness."

Which brings us to 29 AD and Jesus is about 30 years of age.

Lk.3:23. "And Jesus Himself began to be about 30 years of age, (When all Jewish priests begin their priesthood.) being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, who was the son of Heli,"

Back to Daniel's prophecy of 70 weeks of years decreed upon his people, for a moment. We have determined as we fast close on all of the 69 weeks, 483 years, and 173,880 days in the Hebrew 360 day year as to exactly where it will take us.

Jn.12:12-13. "On the next day many people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, Took branches of palm trees and and went forth to meet Him, and cried Hosanna! Blessed is the King of Israel, that cometh in the name of the Lord." April 6th 32 AD. (According to the Royal Observatory, Greenwich, England.)

Exactly 173,880 days from King Artaxerxes of Persia, decree of March 14,445 BC. (Based on the 360 day Hebrew year.) But does that make any difference at all, rather than a 365 day year? No! It doesn't!

1. 32 years (AD) X 365 days in our year = 11,680 days.

2. 445 years (BC) X 365 days in our year = 162,425 days

3. Total 174,425 days divided by 365 = 477 years.

4. Plus 24 days between March 14 (445 BC) and April 6 32 AD-= 477 years, + 24 days.

5. Subtract one year because there is no year zero between 1 BC and 1 AD.= 476 years, + 24 days.

6. 476 years X365 days = 173,740 days +24 = 173,764 Days.

7. Add days of the leap years over 476 years. Divided by 4 =-- = 119 days...= 173,883 days.

8. Subtract 1/128 Calendar year day for every solar year: Leap year omitted every 128 years. = -3 days = 173,880 days!

Identically the same as the Hebrew 360 day (religious) year.

The 70th week of Daniel's prophecy, of the final 7 years, is the Tribulation, or Jacob's Trouble (Jer.30:7.) which will conclude the 490 year prophecy decreed upon his people, with a 2,000 year parenthetic in between, that covers the entire church age, during the same period of time Israel is scattered throughout the world.

Dan.9:27. "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week; and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

Hence this prophecy covers a period from 445 BC, [The decree of the Persian king, Artaxerxes, in his 20th year of reign, to rebuild Jerusalem, in Neh.2:1 and 8]. for 69 of the 70 'weeks,' for a period of 483 years, until Jesus first advent until His crucifixion, in about 32 A.D., in Dan.9:26. Until returning in His second advent to establish His kingdom here on earth in Dan.9:27, or for a period 2,445 + years, most of which has been during the time Israel was in their diaspora and no longer a nation.


Therefore, as you can see, if the interpretation of that prophecy was as you believe it to be, the complete 490 year total of it, without any church age at all, would end at 39 A.D., without any significance at all.

The "he", referred to twice in Dan.9:27 is the Antichrist. You are quite right again, the Scriptures don't record him as the Antichrist, any more than he is referred to that way in 2 Thes.2:3-4 and vs 8. Or in Rev. 13, 17 and 19, either. But he is the Antichrist, nevertheless. Jesus refers to him in Mt.24:15 as the abomination of desolation. NONE OF WHICH HAS TAKEN PLACE YET!


3. "...Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel." Mt.10:5-6.

"He answered, 'I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.'" Mt.15:24. His Church did not begin until ten days after Jesus ascended into heaven AT PENTECOST! Therefore, all of His ministry, during His First Advent, was to Israel! That includes His entire teachings in Mt.24, Mk.13 and Lk.21 about Israel's fate in the tribulation - THAT HAS NOT YET OCCURRED! Nor does it have anything whatever to do with the Church or the rapture.

"This generation" of Mt.24:34, refers to the generation who are alive at the time His prophecy will take place, that He had been talking about. NOT TO THE PEOPLE HE WAS TALKING TO!

4. <SNIP> Reference is to two events, not just one; A. The times. B. The season. Jesus Second advent will occur in the fall of the year, when 'they shall see the sign of the Son of Man,' Rev.12:1-2. [Another subject that I will go no further with on this thread]. You ask, 'What does "nigh" mean?" In the context it has been used, Jesus meant when the events of His prophecy begin to occur, we will know the kingdom of God is at hand, and 'nigh' means near.

You ask, 'So did all the other nations become nations in 1948 as well?' <SNIP> What do you think?

5. The Second Coming of Jesus Christ, is when He returns TO THE EARTH, to end the battle of Armageddon, save the remnant of Israel, defeat the Antichrist, the false prophet and their armies, throw the former two into the lake of fire and kill the rest of their armies, Rev.19:14 and 20. It has nothing to do with the rapture of the Church, when Jesus appears in the clouds of the sky and catches up all those who are still on earth and alive at His appearing - WHICH IS NOT HIS SECOND COMING. Where does He take His Church from the clouds of the sky? The following is what Jesus said about it:

"In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not true I would have told you. I AM GOING THERE TO PREPARE A PLACE FOR YOU, I WILL COME BACK AND TAKE YOU WITH ME THAT YOU ALSO MAY BE WHERE I AM." Jn.14:2-3.

"You heard me say, 'I AM GOING AWAY AND I AM COMING BACK TO YOU.' IF YOU LOVED ME, YOU WOULD BE GLAD THAT I AM GOING TO THE FATHER, FOR THE FATHER IS GREATER THAN I." Jn.14:28. From which it is clear, when Jesus appears for His Church, all of us who belong to Him, He is taking us with Him to our Father in heaven! Not back to the earth as He will at His Second Coming to the earth.

When Jesus returns to the earth at His Second Coming, He will bring all of us He raptured, or who died in Him, in His armies from heaven, in Rev.19:14, Zech.14:4-5 and Jude 14. There is no 'three comings to the earth, only to those who did not receive the gift of prophecy from the Holy Spirit. As you know, historians can only see backwards!

That will have to suffice for the time being. I will return to debunk the rest of your post later!

Blessings,

Quasar

 

[Quasar]

Rapture of the Church vs Jesus 2nd coming

Preterist [Part 2].

6. The "he" who is mentioned twice in Dan.9:27, is the same "he" whom Jesus refers to in Mt.24:15, who is the abomination of desolation. Vs 27 is clearly referring to the 70th and final "week" [7 years] God has decreed upon the destiny of Israel, that is the same as the Jacob's Trouble of Jer.30:7, i.e., the tribulation.

The "he" of vs 27 has nothing whatever to do with the "prince" of vs 26. Lets look at it from either the NASB or the NIV instead of the KJV in this case, for a little different slant on it.

"After the 62 'weeks,' the Anointed One [Jesus] will be cut off [crucified] and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary [The Roman general, Titus, and his Roman army in the civil war, in Israel in 66 A.D.]. Please note, the "prince" of vs 26, in your KJV is not capitalized as it is in vs 25. Vs 25 refers to Jesus who is 'cut off,' and vs 26 refers to Titus, who destroyed the city and the sanctuary in 70 A.D.

What you are saying is, that God's 70th "week" has already occurred, eliminating the church age in its entirety, with Jesus destroying the city and the sanctuary. That is the epitome of nonsense! When I stated that the 'he" of vs 27 was the Antichrist, please explain to me your logic of saying 'I have made Jesus an antichrist?'

As for Paul referring to the 'man of lawlessness,' in 2 Thes.2:3-4 and 8, he could well have been alive 2,000 years ago, as John wrote in Rev.17:10-11: "They are also seven kings. Five are fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come he must remain for a little while. The BEAST [Antichrist] WHO ONCE WAS, NOW IS NOT, IS AN EIGHTH KING. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction." Meaning the Antichrist, who will be brought out of the Abyss [Rev.17:8], was already dead when John wrote Revelation, but could have been alive 2,000 years before Paul's epistles to the Thessalonicans, though I doubt it was that long before.

In connection with 2 Thes.2:6-7 refers to the godlessness and wickedness in the world, even in Paul's time, and that all of us who belong to Christ, who gave us of His Spirit [1 Jn.4:13], who dwells within all of us, is the RESTRAINER, in preventing the Antichrist from being revealed BEFORE GOD'S TIMING FOR HIM TO DO SO.

You ask where the in gap in Dan.9 is, which I have clearly laid out for you in Part one of my response to you. It begins after the Messiah is 'cut off,' after 69 of the 70 "weeks," or 483 of the 490 years. There has already been 1,974 years go by since then, closing fast on 2,000 years, in which God is giving the 'times of the Gentiles' to come in. When that part of His timetable has been completed, the rapture will take place and the Church will depart to be with Jesus and taken out of the way, just preceding the time when the Antichrist WILL BE REVEALED [2 Thes.2:3 and 8].

7. Since the Revelation of Jesus Christ was dictated by Jesus and He could have just as easily given it to John in the cave on the island of Patmos. But instead Jesus specifically spelled out the events of Rev.4:1-2 for a very good reason. He put His Church symbolically into heaven before the tribulation begins, as He taught us in Jn.14:2-3 and 28! The Church later appears harmoniously in heaven for the wedding in Rev.19:7-8. From there, after the wedding of the Lamb and His Bride, Jesus and His Church, He returns to the earth in His second advent, with His saints [The Church] following Him in His armies from heaven, riding white horses and dresssed in fine linen [which stands for the righteous acts of the saints], Rev.19:8 NIV. Yes, Rev.4:1-2 is part of the proof of the rapture. There is a preponderance of other proof!

8. I have given you the facts about Jesus first and second advents to the earth. There are no others. The rapture is an appearing of Jesus in the clouds of the sky when He calls His Church up to meet Him there, where He takes us all to be with our Father in heaven. Jn.14:28 and 1 Thes.4:14-18.

2 Thes.2:7-10 refers to Jesus return the earth, as revealed in Rev.19:14-20, with His raptured Church following Him in His armies from heaven, and His angels, to defeat the Antichrist, the false prophet and his armies, to be glorified in His elect, as they too will be glorified. This is Jesus second advent to the earth and has nothing to do with the rapture, except for their return from heaven with Christ [Zech.14:4-5, Jude 14 and Rev.14-20].

9. "They look upon the one whom they have pierced," as written by John, is not the fulfillment of that prophecy at all. Do you see all the Jews going about mourning for one as though it were an only son? Hardly! The Jews of Israel rejected Jesus and had him crucified! For nearly 2,000 years they have rejected Jesus as their Messiah and it won't be until He returns in power and great glory [Mt.24:30], in His Second Coming to the earth, as seen in Zech.9:14-17, 12:10 and 14:4-5.

10. The catching of Satan and throwing him into the Abyss, chained and sealed for 1,000 years is concurrent with Jesus Millennial kingdom here on earth/the seventh millennium [Rev.20:6]. Indeed it will be observable. See Isa.11:6-9 and 65:19-25. The kingdom of God refers to the time following His creating a new heaven and earth. The Millennial kingdom of Christ is in this age and upon the earth before it is destroyed to make way for God to create a new one.

11. There are only two resurrections as documented in Rev.20:4-6. The rapture of the Church is not a resurrection, nor is it called one. Because when all of us who die, our physical bodies, our spirit/souls go to be with the Lord immediately [2 Cor.5:6-8, Phil.1:21-23 in confirmation with Ecc.12:7. When Jesus is revealed in the clouds of the sky to catch up all those who are left here on the earth alive, all those of us who have died previously belonging to Him, are seen coming with Him in 1 Thes.4:14, when He comes for those who are alive [1 Thes.4:15-17]. We will all have bodies like His [
1 Jn.3:2 and 1 Cor.15:52-54].

12. No! As I have posted previously, the Millennial kingdom of Christ, is right here on the earth, as will be the seventh millennium of God's timetable. The kingdom of God, is the eternal one after the creation of a new heaven and new earth.

13. Satan is destroyed only once, in Rev.20:10, where he is thrown into the lake of fire to be tormented day and night forever. Heb.2:14 is the victory of Christ in His resurrection from the dead with a prophetic view of when Jesus does destroy him. Satan is still very much in the picture, right on up through the time he is thrown out of heaven to the earth in Rev.12:10.

14. I was wondering if you would get to the question of only two resurrections, of which the Church is among neither of them. It is abundantly clear, the Church has been raptured and do not take part in either of them. FYI it's Great Grandpa, with eighteen great grand children, sonny! If I don't go to be with Jesus immediately following the death of my body, it will be, "While we wait for the blessed hope - the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ." when He comes for all of us who belong to Him, before the tribulation begins!

Hades and death are thrown into the lake of fire, approximately 1,007 years after the rapture of the Church, and the great white throne judgement, just before this earth is destroyed by fire and a new one is created. Rev.21:7-15 and 21:1-3.

It is the same new earth as in Isa.65:17-18. Vss that follow, from 19-25 are about the Millennial kingdom of Christ here on the present earth. Isa.66:22, is the only vs referring to the new earth. Vss 23-24 refer to the Millennial kingdom of Christ.

The New Jerusalem that is seen coming down from heaven is not the Church [Rev.21:9-10], but rather it is where the Church is - inside the city [Rev.21:2], where they are descending from heaven, in the mansions Jesus has been preparing for us [Jn.14:2-3].

blessings,

Quasar

 

[Vic C.]

Re: Rapture of the Church vs Jesus 2nd Coming

2. God's decree was for the entire remaining destiny of Israel, until vs 24 is fulfilled. "To finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness..." Which will not take place until the Second Coming of Christ. NONE OF WHICH HAS TAKEN PLACE YET! They ceased to be a nation when they rejected their Messiah and were scattered into a world wide diaspora in 70 A.D., until May 14, 1948. 1,878 years before becoming the nation of Israel once again....

That certainly is a good point. We discussed this in my "Gap" thread, as you may remember. The other point I have a problem with is, if the"he" in Daniel is Jesus, when did He ever declare a covenant for seven years with anyone? I am under the impression this was in reference to Antiochus and his seven year "covenant" and his descetration of the Temple; which is a foreshadow of a future event, as per Jesus:

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

I am confused about one thing; I don't see the connection between OT National Israel and the political State of Israel formed in 1948. The population of this political state isn't really comprised of the descendants of National Israel. So, where's the connection?

 

[preterist]

Re: Rapture of the Church vs Jesus 2nd Coming

I am confused about one thing; I don't see the connection between OT National Israel and the political State of Israel formed in 1948. The population of this political state isn't really comprised of the descendants of National Israel. So, where's the connection?

Therein lies the fatal flaw of this sort of eschatology. None in modern Israel can even trace their lineage back to 1st century Jews. In fact, 95% are offspring of people in the first millennium who converted to Judeaism.

 

[preterist]

1.Quite right; it was a typo and intended to be vs 7 only. It has been corrected.

The context of verse 7 is found in verse 3:

Jer 30:3 For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.

What captivity? It seems to me the captivity of Babylon:

Jer 29:10 For thus saith the LORD, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place.
Jer 29:14 And I will be found of you, saith the LORD: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the LORD; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive.

How do you get this to mean modern times? It seems to speak of the Babylonian captivity or possibly the Roman destruction. Here is what Barnes and Clarke have to say:

Barnes:

Jer 30:7 -
That day - i. e., the day of the capture of Babylon.
It is even the time of Jacob’s trouble - Rather, and it is a time of trouble to Jacob, i. e., of anxiety to the Jews, for the usages of war were so brutal that they would be in danger when the enemy made their assault.


Clarke:

Jer 30:7 -
Alas! for that day is great - When the Medes and Persians with all their forces shall come on the Chaldeans, it will be the day of Jacob’s trouble - trial, dismay, and uncertainty; but he shall be delivered out of it - the Chaldean empire shall fall, but the Jews shall be delivered by Cyrus. Jerusalem shall be destroyed by the Romans, but the Israel of God shall be delivered from its ruin. Not one that had embraced Christianity perished in the sackage of that city.

2. God's decree was for the entire remaining destiny of Israel, until vs 24 is fulfilled. "To finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness..." Which will not take place until the Second Coming of Christ. NONE OF WHICH HAS TAKEN PLACE YET!

You are wrong. The transgression spoken of is found in verse 11:

Dan 9:11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.

It was to that last generation that was to fill up the sins of their fathers:

Mat 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

Jesus did make an end of sin:

Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Did Jesus not atone for wickedness?

Rom 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Did He not bring in reconciliation?

Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Do we not have everlasting righteousness?

2Co 9:9 As it is written, "He scattered; he has given to the poor; his righteousness remains forever."

Rom 14:17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

1Co 1:30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who of God is made to us wisdom and righteousness and sanctification and redemption;

It is Christ who makes the covenant.

Mat 26:28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many unto remission of sins.

1.Referrence here is to what God has decreed upon Daniel's people, Israel. (It has nothing at all to do with the church!)

Correct, but don’t forget “and upon thy holy cityâ€Â.

The 70 weeks of Daniel are based on the 70 years of captivity. Was there a gap of any kind in the 70 years?

Jer 29:10 For thus saith Jehovah, After seventy years are accomplished for Babylon, I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place.

Of course there is no gap. Look up every occurrence of a 40 year time period or a 40 day time period or a 70 time period and see if God ever inserts a gap. You will find none. It is dispies who artificially insert a gap in order to prop up their system. Imagine God telling Israel He will enslave them to the Babylonians for 70 years but then inserts a gap of 500 years in between the 69th and 70th week. You think the Israelites might think God is a liar? Yet that is exactly what you have done.

The "he", referred to twice in Dan.9:27 is the Antichrist. You are quite right again, the Scriptures don't record him as the Antichrist, any more than he is referred to that way in 2 Thes.2:3-4 and vs 8. Or in Rev. 13, 17 and 19, either. But he is the Antichrist, nevertheless. Jesus refers to him in Mt.24:15 as the abomination of desolation. NONE OF WHICH HAS TAKEN PLACE YET!

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the anointed one, the prince, shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: it shall be built again, with street and moat, even in troublous times.
Dan 9:26 And after the threescore and two weeks shall the anointed one be cut off, and shall have nothing: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and even unto the end shall be war; desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27 And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out upon the desolate.

Again, the “he’ of 27 is the “prince†of 26 which is the “anointed one†of 25. Your method introduces a new “prince†without informing us who he is or distinguishing him from the previous prince. Common sense tells us it is the Messiah.

"This generation" of Mt.24:34, refers to the generation who are alive at the time His prophecy will take place, that He had been talking about. NOT TO THE PEOPLE HE WAS TALKING TO!

Well you are half right, it does refer to that generation and it was the generation that saw the signs. Look up every use of “this generation†and see if it means as you suggest.

You ask, 'What does "nigh" mean?" In the context it has been used, Jesus meant when the events of His prophecy begin to occur, we will know the kingdom of God is at hand, and 'nigh' means near.

Well apparently the signs had started to occur, because the NT writers used the term in their writings. Why would james disobey the words of jesus and say His coming was near if it was not?

You ask, 'So did all the other nations become nations in 1948 as well?' <SNIP> What do you think?

I’m asking you do apply the same logic you used for the fig tree and Israel and apply it to all the other trees. Of course it doesn’t work.

"In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not true I would have told you. I AM GOING THERE TO PREPARE A PLACE FOR YOU, I WILL COME BACK AND TAKE YOU WITH ME THAT YOU ALSO MAY BE WHERE I AM." Jn.14:2-3.

So where Jesus is, no man can go until He returns. Therefore all those who have died are not in His presence or in God’s presence or in Heaven. Correct?

 

[preterist]

The "he" of vs 27 has nothing whatever to do with the "prince" of vs 26. Lets look at it from either the NASB or the NIV instead of the KJV in this case, for a little different slant on it.

"After the 62 'weeks,' the Anointed One [Jesus] will be cut off [crucified] and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary [The Roman general, Titus, and his Roman army in the civil war, in Israel in 66 A.D.]. Please note, the "prince" of vs 26, in your KJV is not capitalized as it is in vs 25. Vs 25 refers to Jesus who is 'cut off,' and vs 26 refers to Titus, who destroyed the city and the sanctuary in 70 A.D.

Actually I don’t have a problem with this interpretation, at least it keeps it in the time context of the 1st century. I’ll just leave it at that.

What you are saying is, that God's 70th "week" has already occurred, eliminating the church age in its entirety,

No, the Church Age is here and has been here. Not putting a gap in Daniel 9 does not mean eliminating the Church Age.

When I stated that the 'he" of vs 27 was the Antichrist, please explain to me your logic of saying 'I have made Jesus an antichrist?'

Because the he of 27 is Jesus.

The BEAST [Antichrist] WHO ONCE WAS, NOW IS NOT, IS AN EIGHTH KING. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction." Meaning the Antichrist, who will be brought out of the Abyss [Rev.17:8], was already dead when John wrote Revelation, but could have been alive 2,000 years before Paul's epistles to the Thessalonicans, though I doubt it was that long before.

The Beast dealt with Rome(Dan. 7), you lost me on the rest.

In connection with 2 Thes.2:6-7 refers to the godlessness and wickedness in the world, even in Paul's time, and that all of us who belong to Christ, who gave us of His Spirit [1 Jn.4:13], who dwells within all of us, is the RESTRAINER

On what do you base this? This is what I was taught, but I find no such thing in scripture.

7. Since the Revelation of Jesus Christ was dictated by Jesus and He could have just as easily given it to John in the cave on the island of Patmos. But instead Jesus specifically spelled out the events of Rev.4:1-2 for a very good reason. He put His Church symbolically into heaven before the tribulation begins,

Once again, right out of the dispie playbook. Taking John into heaven is suppose to equate to a rapture. This is dreamed up when a rapture doctrine cannot be plainly found in scripture, so it must be invented.

9. "They look upon the one whom they have pierced," as written by John, is not the fulfillment of that prophecy at all.

Then John is a liar:

Joh 19:36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
Joh 19:37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

It doesn’t get much plainer.

The kingdom of God refers to the time following His creating a new heaven and earth. The Millennial kingdom of Christ is in this age and upon the earth before it is destroyed to make way for God to create a new one.

But you said that Is. 65-66 describes this Millennial Kingdom, but Is. 65-66 describes the New Heavens and New Earth.

11. There are only two resurrections as documented in Rev.20:4-6. The rapture of the Church is not a resurrection, nor is it called one. Because when all of us who die, our physical bodies, our spirit/souls go to be with the Lord immediately

They can’t go to be with the Lord because according to you He has not returned yet. Remember your use of John 14:

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

[2 Cor.5:6-8, Phil.1:21-23 in confirmation with Ecc.12:7. When Jesus is revealed in the clouds of the sky to catch up all those who are left here on the earth alive, all those of us who have died previously belonging to Him, are seen coming with Him in 1 Thes.4:14, when He comes for those who are alive [1 Thes.4:15-17]. We will all have bodies like His [
1 Jn.3:2 and 1 Cor.15:52-54].

So there is no physical resurrection of those whom have already died in Christ? I happen to agree, but I’m a full-preterist and labeled heretic for this belief.

12. No! As I have posted previously, the Millennial kingdom of Christ, is right here on the earth, as will be the seventh millennium of God's timetable. The kingdom of God, is the eternal one after the creation of a new heaven and new earth.

Again, Is. 65-667 is a description of the New Heavens and New Earth. You can’t say that Is. 65-66 describes the Mill. Kingdom but then say the New Heavens and New Earth come after that. You better read Is.65-66 again.

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
Isa 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
Isa 65:21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
Isa 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
Isa 65:23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
Isa 65:24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

13. Satan is destroyed only once, in Rev.20:10, where he is thrown into the lake of fire to be tormented day and night forever. Heb.2:14 is the victory of Christ in His resurrection from the dead with a prophetic view of when Jesus does destroy him. Satan is still very much in the picture, right on up through the time he is thrown out of heaven to the earth in Rev.12:10.

Doesn’t say it is future, it says that through His death he is destroyed.

FYI it's Great Grandpa, with eighteen great grand children, sonny!

FYI, I was referring to my grandpa.

If I don't go to be with Jesus immediately following the death of my body,

Your view doesn’t allow that, Christ has not returned. I’m not sure where you go if you are correct.

The New Jerusalem that is seen coming down from heaven is not the Church [Rev.21:9-10], but rather it is where the Church is - inside the city [Rev.21:2], where they are descending from heaven, in the mansions Jesus has been preparing for us [Jn.14:2-3].

Again, you twist the plain reading of scripture:

The angel tells John he will show him the “Churchâ€Â:

Rev 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

So what does he show him:

Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

The New Jerusalem is the Church as contrasted with the Old Jerusalem and the Old Covenant:

Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the first-born who are written in Heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Gal 4:24 which things are being allegorized; for these are the two covenants, one indeed from Mount Sinai bringing forth to slavery, which is Hagar.
Gal 4:25 For Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to Jerusalem which now is, and is in slavery with her children.
Gal 4:26 But the Jerusalem from above is free, who is the mother of us all.

 

[Quasar]

Re: Rapture of the Church vs Jesus 2nd Coming

2. God's decree was for the entire remaining destiny of Israel, until vs 24 is fulfilled. "To finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness..." Which will not take place until the Second Coming of Christ. NONE OF WHICH HAS TAKEN PLACE YET! They ceased to be a nation when they rejected their Messiah and were scattered into a world wide diaspora in 70 A.D., until May 14, 1948. 1,878 years before becoming the nation of Israel once again....

That certainly is a good point. We discussed this in my "Gap" thread, as you may remember. The other point I have a problem with is, if the"he" in Daniel is Jesus, when did He ever declare a covenant for seven years with anyone? I am under the impression this was in reference to Antiochus and his seven year "covenant" and his descetration of the Temple; which is a foreshadow of a future event, as per Jesus:

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

I am confused about one thing; I don't see the connection between OT National Israel and the political State of Israel formed in 1948. The population of this political state isn't really comprised of the descendants of National Israel. So, where's the connection?

Hey Vic,

There is no difference, because those who are there today, are the offspring of OT Israel, and are the same people now as those who were there until driven out in the first century A.D. That there are those who attempt to find differences between them creates problems that don't exist.

Blessings,

Quasar

 

[Quasar]

The Rapture of the Church vs the 2nd Coming

Preterist,

I have fully posted my position and will not be responding to your ongoing views and just go in circles. It also reveals your position is cast in stone and those I have laid before you are not understood because it is clear, you were never given the gift of prophecy by the Holy Spirit. But simply parrot what you have been led to believe and closing your mind to sound eschatology.


The following is a list of degreed theologians and their titles WHO ALSO SUPPORT THE VERY SAME VIEWS I HAVE! The fact that the Church will be raptured! Their eschatology all came directly from the Word of God - IN THE VERY SAME MANNER MINE DID! I pray it will convict you of the fact that you need to expand your opinions to the superior knowledge of those whose studies of the Scriptures command proper respect!

A. Frank L. Gaebelein, A.M., Litt.D., Headmaster Emiritus, The Stoney Brook School.

B. William Culbertson, D.D., L.L.D., President, Moody Bible Institute.

C. Charles L. Feinberg, ThD., PhD., Dean, Talbot Theological Seminary.

D. Allan A. Mac Rae, A.M., PhD., President, Biblical School of Theology.

E. Clarence E. Mason, Jr., Th.M., D.D., Dean, Philadelphia College of Bible.

F. Alva J. Mc Clain, Th.M., D.D., President Emeritus, Grace Theological Seminary.

G. Wilbur M. Smith, D.D., Editor, Peloubet's Select Notes.

H. John F. Walvoord, A.M., Th.D., President, Dallas Theological Seminary.

I. C.I. Scofield, D.D., Editor, Scofield Bible.

The above theologians represent the Editorial Committee of the 1967 edition of the Scofield Bible.

Others who endorse the rapture theology of the Church are:

Charles Stanley, Baptist minister, James Kennedy, Presbyterian minister, Dwight Pentecost, Dean at Dallas Theological Seminary, Harold Wilmington, Dean at Liberty Seminary, Arno Froese, Editor and CEO of Midnight Call Ministries, Thomas Ice, PhD., Author, Jack Van Impe, TV Ministry, Tim Le Hay, Author, Jerry Fallwell, Baptist minister, Billie Graham, TV ministry, Franklin Graham, TV minstry, Dr. Ron Carlson, Dr. Wilfred Hahn, Dave Hunt, Ed Decker, Dr. Norbert Lieth, hundreds of thousands of others!


My apology for misunderstanding reference was to your grandpa, and not to me. :


Blessings,

Quasar

 

[preterist]

I have fully posted my position and will not be responding to your ongoing views and just go in circles. It also reveals your position is cast in stone

I have changed my views in the past have you? Perhaps you are the one cast in stone.

and those I have laid before you are not understood because it is clear, you were never given the gift of prophecy by the Holy Spirit.

Gift of prophecy? Is that what you think Jack VanImpe has? If so, I'm glad I don't have it. You don't need any gift to understand scripture, just the Holy Spirit and an open mind.

But simply parrot what you have been led to believe and closing your mind to sound eschatology.

This is amusing coming from someone who lists all the people he parroted from.

The following is a list of degreed theologians and their titles WHO ALSO SUPPORT THE VERY SAME VIEWS I HAVE!

So what, I used to buy into that view as well. I could list thousands throughout history who disagree. By the way, I would not be proud to have Tim Lahaye and Jack Van Impe as my gurus.

The fact that the Church will be raptured! Their eschatology all came directly from the Word of God

Their eschatology came straight from Darby and the margin notes from the Scofield study Bible.

I pray it will convict you of the fact that you need to expand your opinions to the superior knowledge of those whose studies of the Scriptures command proper respect!

I have studied, it is then that I left the pre-mill dispie view. FYI, those men are not inspired as you seem to believe.

 

[Quasar]

Difference between the rapture and 2nd Coming of Christ

I have fully posted my position and will not be responding to your ongoing views and just go in circles. It also reveals your position is cast in stone

I have changed my views in the past have you? Perhaps you are the one cast in stone.

[quote:95bbe]and those I have laid before you are not understood because it is clear, you were never given the gift of prophecy by the Holy Spirit.

Gift of prophecy? Is that what you think Jack VanImpe has? If so, I'm glad I don't have it. You don't need any gift to understand scripture, just the Holy Spirit and an open mind.

But simply parrot what you have been led to believe and closing your mind to sound eschatology.

This is amusing coming from someone who lists all the people he parroted from.

The following is a list of degreed theologians and their titles WHO ALSO SUPPORT THE VERY SAME VIEWS I HAVE!

So what, I used to buy into that view as well. I could list thousands throughout history who disagree. By the way, I would not be proud to have Tim Lahaye and Jack Van Impe as my gurus.

The fact that the Church will be raptured! Their eschatology all came directly from the Word of God

Their eschatology came straight from Darby and the margin notes from the Scofield study Bible.

I pray it will convict you of the fact that you need to expand your opinions to the superior knowledge of those whose studies of the Scriptures command proper respect!

I have studied, it is then that I left the pre-mill dispie view. FYI, those men are not inspired as you seem to believe. [/quote:95bbe]



Preterist,

Your post above is the very reason I will not interface with you in this discussion. Because you are capable of doing only one thing, attacking all people who oppose your ludicrous, heretical views. FYI, I believed/received the Jesus Christ as my own personal Lord and Savior in 1937, when I was in high school. Since then, I have held memberships in five different denominational churches. Graduated from two seminaries with a BA and an MA in the study of the Bible, Christian history, theology and prophecy. In addition to further PG studies from three other seminaries.

And yes, I have changed my mind on a couple of other mainstream church sacred cows, but they have nothing to do with this subject.

The views held by Preterists is unfortunate, as they are so far removed from the teachings of the Word of God, the Holy Bible. And I can assure you, 80% of what I learned from it is indeed 'cast in stone!'

Listen carefully: "Blessed is the one who READS THIS PROPHECY, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near" [Rev.1:3]. The Revelation of Jesus Christ is not a history book, but consists of end time prophecy. And that is only the tip of the iceberg!

Blessings,

Quasar


[/b]

 

[preterist]

Preterist,

Your post above is the very reason I will not interface with you in this discussion. Because you are capable of doing only one thing, attacking all people who oppose your ludicrous, heretical views.

Where did I attack you? It was you making accusations against me, I only turned them back on you. Perhaps you should re-read your comments made toward me. Attacking ones position is not a personal attack. Is labeling someone a heretic not an attack?

FYI, I believed/received the Jesus Christ as my own personal Lord and Savior in 1937, when I was in high school.

I never questioned your salvation did I?

The views held by Preterists is unfortunate, as they are so far removed from the teachings of the Word of God, the Holy Bible.

It seems they line up perfectly to scripture. Darbyism seems the veiw that is far removed.

And I can assure you, 80% of what I learned from it is indeed 'cast in stone!'

So I was right.

Listen carefully: "Blessed is the one who READS THIS PROPHECY, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near" [Rev.1:3]. The Revelation of Jesus Christ is not a history book, but consists of end time prophecy.

Read very carefully, it says: because the time is near. That means near 2000 ears ago, not near now. You cannot rip out, re-define or ignore the numerous time-indicators found throughout the NT. When I started dealing honestly with these time-indicators is when I left my dispie view and entered preterism.

 

[Vic C.]

2 Pet 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

You don't need to be a dispy to subscribe to Premil. Most PreWrathers aren't. All one needs to do is realize that prophecy does skip around, past, future, present... back and forth.

The "he" of vs 27 has nothing whatever to do with the "prince" of vs 26. Lets look at it from either the NASB or the NIV instead of the KJV in this case, for a little different slant on it.

"After the 62 'weeks,' the Anointed One [Jesus] will be cut off [crucified] and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary [The Roman general, Titus, and his Roman army in the civil war, in Israel in 66 A.D.]. Please note, the "prince" of vs 26, in your KJV is not capitalized as it is in vs 25. Vs 25 refers to Jesus who is 'cut off,' and vs 26 refers to Titus, who destroyed the city and the sanctuary in 70 A.D.

[quote:b3684]Actually I don’t have a problem with this interpretation, at least it keeps it in the time context of the 1st century. I’ll just leave it at that.

[/quote:b3684]
See, you just agreed to a gap right there. There are questions asked of the preterists that go unanswered. I have asked a few myself, to no avail.

One more thing... I can't read your mind nor can anyone else here, so all we have to go by is the "tone" of your words when you post. The tone towards Quasar and others here suggest "attack"

So you don't think I am picking you out, I will ask that ALL here please refrain from personal attacks. Let's stick to discussing issues, not people.

Thanks.

 

[preterist]

2 Pet 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

This is a statement about how God views time(Ps. 90:1-4), not how God communicates time to His creation. If we are to filter prophetic time-texts through this verse, then it renders them all meaningless to us.

All one needs to do is realize that prophecy does skip around, past, future, present... back and forth.

Does it? Or do our eschatological pre-suppositions force it to skip around and go back and forth?

Quote:
Actually I don’t have a problem with this interpretation, at least it keeps it in the time context of the 1st century. I’ll just leave it at that.


See, you just agreed to a gap right there.

Actually, I don’t believe there is any gap in the 70 weeks. The destruction in my view was “determined†in the 70 weeks, not to be carried out in the 70 weeks. But how does one even get a 7 year tribulation from the last week of the 70 if the Messiah is cut off in the 70th week? That leaves only 3 and a half years left, not 7.

There are questions asked of the preterists that go unanswered. I have asked a few myself, to no avail.

Frustrating isn’t it? To ask questions and get no answers to them. Such as why do the NT writers say they were living in the “last days†and at the “end of the age†yet I am told the “last days†and the “end of the age†are upon us now because of 1948. To me it is a simple question.

Every eschatological view has problems. I readily admit there are problems in the preterist view, but I have found the fewest in the preterist system that any other. If you have unanswered question ask away. If I can’t answer them then I will say so. Despite what many think, I have no dog in this hunt. I really don’t care which view is correct I just want to know the correct one. Too many are married to a system and will stick with it despite what the Word says.

One more thing... I can't read your mind nor can anyone else here, so all we have to go by is the "tone" of your words when you post. The tone towards Quasar and others here suggest "attack"

I guess it all depends which side of the computer you’re sitting at. When I read that I am just “parroting†what others have told me, it suggests to me, that I am gullible and can’t think for myself. When I am told I am a heretic, I assume that is an attack on me. When I am told “you were never given the gift of prophecy by the Holy Spirit†it indicates to me someone thinks they are superior to me. When I am told I am close-minded, I consider that a form of attack. When I am told my view doesn’t come from the Word of God, yet I quote as much or more scripture than most, it tends to wear on me a bit. When I am told,†you need to expand your opinions to the superior knowledge of those whose studies of the Scriptures command proper respect†then I assume the person issuing this statement thinks Ihave inferior knowledge. Perhaps the moderators do not deem this “attack†but as I said, it depends on which side of the computer you’re sitting at.

 

[Quasar]

Questions for Preterist -

OK Preterist,

You asked for it, now here's a few questions for you to guess at, since no one here seems to knows what their talking about. Including esteemed theologians and other degreed expositors.

1. Since you believe Jesus has returned to the earth in His second coming in 70 A.D., who among those living at that time saw Him? In Mt.24:30. He said all the nations of the earth will see Him coming on the clouds of the sky and mourn. Yet there isn't an historian of that time who ever mentioned a single word about such an awsome event!

2. When was the sun and moon darkened with the stars falling from the sky, and the heavenly bodies shaken? Mt/24:29.

3. When was hail and fire mixed with blood hurled down on the earth and a third of the earth was burned up? Rev.8:7.

4. When was a third of the sea turned into blood and a third of the living creatures in the sea killed, and a third of the ships destroyed? Rev.8:8-9.

5. When did a third of the waters on the earth turn bitter and many people died from it? Rev.8:10-11.

6. When was a third of the sun, moon and stars turned dark and a third of the day was without light as well as a third of the night? Rev.8:12.

7. When did the star fall from heaven with the key to the Abyss, who released the locusts, in such a large number, the skies were darkened. Who were like scorpions, to torture mankind for five months? Rev.9:1-3, 10.

8. When did the army of 200 million men attack and kill one third of mankind? Rev.9:15-16.

9. Who were the two witnesss? And how long were they here to prophecy? And what were they empowered to do? Rev.11:3-6.

10. When did Christ begin His power and kingdom here on the earth? When was Satan thrown to the earth? Rev.12:10.

11. When was the Antichrist revealed? Rev.13:1-3. And who was he?

12. When did the false prophet show up? And who was he? Rev.13:11.

13. When did the Antichrist make everyone have his mark on their forehead or their right hand? And if they didn't, they could neither buy nor sell anything. When did that take place? Rev.13:16-17.

14. When was the image of the Antichrist put in the temple of God where everyone was forced to worship it or die? Rev.13:14-15.

15. When did the false prophet cause the image of the Antichrist to have breath? Rev.13:15.

16. Who are the 144,000 from twelve of the tribes of Israel? Where did they come from? Rev.7:1-8.

17. When did everyone get ugly and painful sores who had the mark of the Antichrist? Rev.16:2.

18. When did the sea turn to blood and everything in it died? Rev.163.

19. When did all the rivers and springs of water turn to blood? Rev.16:4.

20. When did the sun scorch and burn everyone with fire? Rev.16:8.

21. When was the kingdom of Satan thrown into darkness, when men knawed their tongues in agony, cursing God because of their pains and sores? Rev.16:10-11.

22. When was the river Euphrates dried up? And Satan, the Antichrist and the false prophet start gathering their army from the kings of the earth? Rev.16:12-14.

23. Where did the army of the Antichrist gather to? Rev.16:16.

24. When did the earthquake take place that destroyed all the great cities of the earth? When did Jerusalem split into three parts? When did the islands and mountains all disappear? When did 100 lb. hailstones fall?

25. When did Jesus throw the Antichrist and the false prophet into the lake of fire? Rev.19:20.

26. When was Satan captured and thrown into the Abyss for 1,000 years? Rev.20:1-3.

27. When did the first resurrection take place? Rev.20:4-6.

28. When was Satan thrown into the Lake of fire? Rev.20:10.

29. When was death ended and thrown into the lake of fire with Hades/Hell/Sheol? Rev.14.

30. Since all historical events ended in 70 A.D., please tell us how the Church of Jesus Christ has been developed!

Now we'll see how well you do responding to the above. And when you do, there are many more where they came from!

Blessings,

Quasar

29. When did the great white throne judgement take place? Rev.20:10.

 

[JM]

Re: The Rapture of the Church vs the 2nd Coming

The following is a list of degreed theologians and their titles WHO ALSO SUPPORT THE VERY SAME VIEWS I HAVE! The fact that the Church will be raptured!

I think you should double check your list.

A. Frank L. Gaebelein, A.M., Litt.D., Headmaster Emiritus, The Stoney Brook School.

B. William Culbertson, D.D., L.L.D., President, Moody Bible Institute.

C. Charles L. Feinberg, ThD., PhD., Dean, Talbot Theological Seminary.

D. Allan A. Mac Rae, A.M., PhD., President, Biblical School of Theology.

E. Clarence E. Mason, Jr., Th.M., D.D., Dean, Philadelphia College of Bible.

F. Alva J. Mc Clain, Th.M., D.D., President Emeritus, Grace Theological Seminary.

G. Wilbur M. Smith, D.D., Editor, Peloubet's Select Notes.

H. John F. Walvoord, A.M., Th.D., President, Dallas Theological Seminary.

I. C.I. Scofield, D.D., Editor, Scofield Bible.

The above theologians represent the Editorial Committee of the 1967 edition of the Scofield Bible.

Have you studied the Old Scofield 2nd edition and checked it against the 1967 edition? CI Scofield wouldn't agree with Gaebelein on your list, that's for sure, he would have much in common with his father Arno.[sp?]

Others who endorse the rapture theology of the Church are:

Charles Stanley, Baptist minister,

Futurist, yes.

James Kennedy, Presbyterian minister,

If this is D. Jame Kennedy of Coral Ridge, you are mistaken. I believe he's Amil historicist.

Dwight Pentecost, Dean at Dallas Theological Seminary, Harold Wilmington, Dean at Liberty Seminary, Arno Froese, Editor and CEO of Midnight Call Ministries, Thomas Ice, PhD., Author, Jack Van Impe, TV Ministry, Tim Le Hay, Author, Jerry Fallwell, Baptist minister, Billie Graham, TV ministry, Franklin Graham, TV minstry, Dr. Ron Carlson, Dr. Wilfred Hahn, Dave Hunt, Ed Decker, Dr. Norbert Lieth, hundreds of thousands of others!

The rest sounds about right.[/quote]

jm

 

[preterist]

1. Since you believe Jesus has returned to the earth in His second coming in 70 A.D., who among those living at that time saw Him? In Mt.24:30. He said all the nations of the earth will see Him coming on the clouds of the sky and mourn. Yet there isn't an historian of that time who ever mentioned a single word about such an awsome event!

He also told Caiaphus he would see it:

Mat 26:64 Jesus said to him, You said it. I tell you more. From this time you shall see the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of the heavens.

Was Jesus wrong? Or did those scribes, Pharasees, and Caiaphus see it? Your belief of what is meant by “coming on the clouds†is incorrect according to biblical precedent.(Is. 19:1)

2. When was the sun and moon darkened with the stars falling from the sky, and the heavenly bodies shaken? Mt/24:29.

Apocalyptic language used to describe the fall of Jerusalem and the dissolution of the Mosaic economy. Again, biblical precedent tells us how to interpret this kind of language. Is. 13 describes the destruction of Babylon by the Medes. Read verse 10 to see how it is described.

3. When was hail and fire mixed with blood hurled down on the earth and a third of the earth was burned up? Rev.8:7.

If you insist on interpreting Revelation using a modern, wooden literalist method, and ignore how this type of language was used in the OT then it will never happen as you believe. The language of Revelation along with its symbolism and imagery is drawn from the OT. Notice:

Isa 28:2 Behold, the Lord is a mighty and strong one, like a hailstorm, a destroying storm; like a flood of mighty waters overflowing, He casts down to the earth with the hand.

Now interpret Rev 8:7 with this in mind.

4. When was a third of the sea turned into blood and a third of the living creatures in the sea killed, and a third of the ships destroyed? Rev.8:8-9.

5. When did a third of the waters on the earth turn bitter and many people died from it? Rev.8:10-11.

6. When was a third of the sun, moon and stars turned dark and a third of the day was without light as well as a third of the night? Rev.8:12.

See above.

7. When did the star fall from heaven with the key to the Abyss, who released the locusts, in such a large number, the skies were darkened. Who were like scorpions, to torture mankind for five months? Rev.9:1-3, 10.

Stars are hundreds of times larger than planet earth. Explain how a star could fall to the earth and not destroy everything. See Acts: 2:20 which Peter was saying were happening on Pentecost.

8. When did the army of 200 million men attack and kill one third of mankind? Rev.9:15-16.

Rev 9:16 And the number of the armies of the horsemen was two myriads of myriads. And I heard their number.

What is a myriad? Why is “of†a multiplier?

9. Who were the two witnesss? And how long were they here to prophecy? And what were they empowered to do? Rev.11:3-6.

Law and the Prophets.

10. When did Christ begin His power and kingdom here on the earth? When was Satan thrown to the earth? Rev.12:10.

Who says Christ’s Kingdom is suppose to be on earth?

Luk 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

To fall from heaven means to lose a position of power or dominion.

11. When was the Antichrist revealed? Rev.13:1-3. And who was he?

No mention of anti-christ in this passage or any other passage in Revelation.

12. When did the false prophet show up? And who was he? Rev.13:11.

Perhaps the high priest and Sanhedrin. Or perhaps Herod Agrippa.

13. When did the Antichrist make everyone have his mark on their forehead or their right hand? And if they didn't, they could neither buy nor sell anything. When did that take place? Rev.13:16-17.

Never, since there is no anti-christ in Revelation. As for marks on the hand and forehead:

Deu 6:8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.

Exo 13:9 And it shall be for a sign unto thee upon thine hand, and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the LORD'S law may be in thy mouth: for with a strong hand hath the LORD brought thee out of Egypt.

They stand symbolically for submission and odedience.

14. When was the image of the Antichrist put in the temple of God where everyone was forced to worship it or die? Rev.13:14-15.

15. When did the false prophet cause the image of the Antichrist to have breath? Rev.13:15.

Still no anti-christ found in Revelation. This deals with Rome and its persecution, in what manner it was fulfilled I do not know.

16. Who are the 144,000 from twelve of the tribes of Israel? Where did they come from? Rev.7:1-8.

They are representative of the first Jewish converts.

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

They are also called the “firstfruitsâ€Â:

Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

James calls his readers firstfruits:

Jam 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Perhaps you can explain how these at the “end of time†are called first fruits? Seems they would be the last.

17. When did everyone get ugly and painful sores who had the mark of the Antichrist? Rev.16:2.

Again, symbolic language probably representing political and spiritual boils that came upon the collective body of the Jewish state.

Part of the curses of the OT:

Deu 28:60 Moreover he will bring upon thee all the diseases of Egypt, which thou wast afraid of; and they shall cleave unto thee.

You err when you try to force this language to fit a 21st century American instead of a 1st century Jew:

Isa 1:4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.
Isa 1:5 Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.
Isa 1:6 From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.
Isa 1:7 Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire: your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers.

18. When did the sea turn to blood and everything in it died? Rev.163.
19. When did all the rivers and springs of water turn to blood? Rev.16:4.
20. When did the sun scorch and burn everyone with fire? Rev.16:8.
21. When was the kingdom of Satan thrown into darkness, when men knawed their tongues in agony, cursing God because of their pains and sores? Rev.16:10-11.
22. When was the river Euphrates dried up? And Satan, the Antichrist and the false prophet start gathering their army from the kings of the earth? Rev.16:12-14.
23. Where did the army of the Antichrist gather to? Rev.16:16.
25. When did Jesus throw the Antichrist and the false prophet into the lake of fire? Rev.19:20.
26. When was Satan captured and thrown into the Abyss for 1,000 years? Rev.20:1-3.

I don’t have time to do a verse by verse commentary on Revelation. Hopefully by now you understand that preterist rely on the symbolism of the OT to interpret Revelation. If you really care what preterist think on these matters, I can recommend some commentaries on Revelation.

24. When did the earthquake take place that destroyed all the great cities of the earth? When did Jerusalem split into three parts? When did the islands and mountains all disappear? When did 100 lb. hailstones fall?

Do a word study on the word “earthâ€Â. Jerusalem was split into 3 parts during the Jewish War. The Zealots, the Galileans, and the Idumeans were warring within the city against each other.

Josephus War of the Jews Book 5 Chapter 1:

4. And now there were three treacherous factions in the city, the one parted from the other. Eleazar and his party, that kept the sacred first-fruits, came against John in their cups. Those that were with John plundered the populace, and went out with zeal against Simon. This Simon had his supply of provisions from the city, in opposition to the seditious. When, therefore, John was assaulted on both sides, he made his men turn about, throwing his darts upon those citizens that came up against him, from the cloisters he had in his possession, while he opposed those that attacked him from the temple by his engines of war. And if at any time he was freed from those that were above him, which happened frequently, from their being drunk and tired, he sallied out with a great number upon Simon and his party; and this he did always in such parts of the city as he could come at, till he set on fire those houses that were full of corn, and of all other provisions. The same thing was done by Simon, when, upon the other's retreat, he attacked the city also; as if they had, on purpose, done it to serve the Romans, by destroying what the city had laid up against the siege, and by thus cutting off the nerves of their own power. Accordingly, it so came to pass, that all the places that were about the temple were burnt down, and were become an intermediate desert space, ready for fighting on both sides of it; and that almost all that corn was burnt, which would have been sufficient for a siege of many years. So they were taken by the means of the famine, which it was impossible they should have been, unless they had thus prepared the way for it by this procedure.

War of the Jews, Book 5 chapter 6:3

The engines, that all the legions had ready prepared for them, were admirably contrived; but still more extraordinary ones belonged to the tenth legion: those that threw darts and those that threw stones were more forcible and larger than the rest, by which they not only repelled the excursions of the Jews, but drove those away that were upon the walls also. Now the stones that were cast were of the weight of a talent, and were carried two furlongs and further. The blow they gave was no way to be sustained, not only by those that stood first in the way, but by those that were beyond them for a great space.

Rev 16:21 And a great hail, as the size of a talent, came down out of the heaven on men. And men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague of it was exceedingly great.

27. When did the first resurrection take place? Rev.20:4-6.

Ad 70

28. When was Satan thrown into the Lake of fire? Rev.20:10.

Probably no too long after this statement:

Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world. Now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

29. When was death ended and thrown into the lake of fire with Hades/Hell/Sheol? Rev.14.

Joh 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, He who hears My Word and believes on Him who sent Me has everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation, but has passed from death to life.

Joh 8:51 Truly, truly, I say to you, If a man keeps My Word, he shall never see death.

Heb 2:14 Since then the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise partook of the same; that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death (that is, the Devil),

Seems death was over in Christ.

30. Since all historical events ended in 70 A.D., please tell us how the Church of Jesus Christ has been developed!

Who says all historical events ended in AD70?

Not sure what you mean how the Church has been developed:

Eph 2:19 Now therefore you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God,
Eph 2:20 and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone,
Eph 2:21 in whom every building having been fitly framed together, grows into a holy sanctuary in the Lord;
Eph 2:22 in whom you also are built together for a dwelling place of God through the Spirit.


Now we'll see how well you do responding to the above. And when you do, there are many more where they came from!

Are you going to be able to field any questions or is this a one-way street? This is usually what happens, the preterist has to answer the questions and the futurists don’t. Here are mine, I’ll keep them to a few so you won’t have to spend as much time as I did in answering:

1. Please explain why John 19:37 is not a fulfillment of Zech 12:10 as you stated earlier: "They look upon the one whom they have pierced," as written by John, is not the fulfillment of that prophecy at all.

Zec 12:10 And I will pour on the house of David, and on the people of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of prayers. And they shall look on Me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him, as one mourns for his only son, and shall be bitter over Him, as the bitterness over the first-born.

Joh 19:36 For these things were done so that the Scripture might be fulfilled, "Not a bone of Him shall be broken."
Joh 19:37 And again another Scripture says, "They shall look upon Him whom they pierced."

2. Are there any examples of a gap in scripture when 40 years, 40 days or 70 years are used? Is Daniel’s 70 weeks the only one that contains a gap?

3.If Messiah is cut off in the 70th week, how can you still have another 7 years still future to us?

Dan 9:26 And after sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself.

We understand the 62nd week is the 69th, and Messiah is cut off after the 69th, that means in the 70th. At least part of the 70th week was fulfilled at the time of Christ. Where do you get 7 years?

4. Who si the forth Beast of Daniel 7?

5.Does Is 65-66 describe the New Heavens and New Earth or the Millennial Kingdom? You have it describing both.

6.You said this:

There are only two resurrections as documented in Rev.20:4-6. The rapture of the Church is not a resurrection, nor is it called one. Because when all of us who die, our physical bodies, our spirit/souls go to be with the Lord immediately

Does that mean you do not believe all those who have died in the Church Age are not physically resurrected? You said there are only 2 resurrections, none of which were for dead believers.

7.How are believers able to be present with the Lord at death if He has not returned?

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

8.You deny the Church is the New Jerusalem, but scripture says otherwise:

Rev 21:9 And one of the seven angels who had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, Come here, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife.
Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of Heaven from God,

How do you deny the Church is the New Jerusalem?

9.What last days did the writer of Hebrews live in?

Heb 1:2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds,

What “end of all things†was Peter referring to?

1Pe 4:7 But the end of all things has drawn near. Therefore be of sound mind, and be sensible to prayers.

What “end of the ages†was Paul referring to?

1Co 10:11 Now these things happened unto them by way of example; and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.

Why was John told not to seal the book because the time was at hand?

Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not up the words of the prophecy of this book; for the time is at hand.

So many more, but I will stop here.

 

[Quasar]

Difference between the rapture and the 2nd coming of Christ

Preterist writes:

Q. 1. Since you believe Jesus has returned to the earth in His second coming in 70 A.D., who among those living at that time saw Him? In Mt.24:30. He said all the nations of the earth will see Him coming on the clouds of the sky and mourn. Yet there isn't an historian of that time who ever mentioned a single word about such an awsome event!

P. >>>He also told Caiaphus he would see it:


Mat 26:64 Jesus said to him, You said it. I tell you more. From this time you shall see the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of the heavens.

Was Jesus wrong? Or did those scribes, Pharasees, and Caiaphus see it? Your belief of what is meant by “coming on the clouds†is incorrect according to biblical precedent.(Is. 19:1)<<<


Q. Your response pertaining to Caiaphas is a complete distortion from what is written in the Scriptures, as follows:

"'Yes, it is as you say,' Jesus replied. 'But I say unto all of you; IN THE FUTURE, YOU WILL SEE THE SON OF MAN SITTING ON THE RIGHT HAND OF THE MIGHTY ONE AND COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN.'" Mt.26:64.

In complete harmony with Mt.24:30-31, Zech.14:4-5, Jude 14 and Rev.19:14 - when Jesus returns to the earth in His Second Advent!

No, Jesus was not wrong, you are!


P. >>>2. When was the sun and moon darkened with the stars falling from the sky, and the heavenly bodies shaken? Mt/24:29.

Apocalyptic language used to describe the fall of Jerusalem and the dissolution of the Mosaic economy. Again, biblical precedent tells us how to interpret this kind of language. Is. 13 describes the destruction of Babylon by the Medes. Read verse 10 to see how it is described.<<<


Q. More complete distortion of the proper interpretation of Mt.24:29. Jesus has just finished answering the questions His disciples asked Him: "...Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming AND THE END OF THE AGE?" In 24:15, Jesus refers to the 70th and final seven years of the decree placed upon them by God, and to the "he" of Dan.9:27, who is the very same person as the man of lawlessness in 2 Thes.2:3-4 and in vs 8. Who is the Antichrist and triggers the tribulation.

He is the person Paul wrote, "He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshipped so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." 2 Thes.2:4.

Isa.13:10 has nothing to do with the Medo-Persian defeat of Babylon! But rather, in vs 9, God prophecies through Isaiah about the coming Day of the Lord, the tribulation. The same Day of the Lord, Paul referes to in 2 Thes.2:3! The context In Isa.13 about the 'Day of the Lord,' runs from vs 9-13.


P. >>>3. When was hail and fire mixed with blood hurled down on the earth and a third of the earth was burned up? Rev.8:7.

If you insist on interpreting Revelation using a modern, wooden literalist method, and ignore how this type of language was used in the OT then it will never happen as you believe. The language of Revelation along with its symbolism and imagery is drawn from the OT. Notice:

Isa 28:2 Behold, the Lord is a mighty and strong one, like a hailstorm, a destroying storm; like a flood of mighty waters overflowing, He casts down to the earth with the hand.

Now interpret Rev 8:7 with this in mind.<<<


Q. The Revelation of Jesus Christ is His testimony CONCERNING THE PROPHECIES THAT NOT ONLY COVER THE REST OF THIS AGE, BUT ALSO A PART OF THE AGE TO COME! It is to be interpreted in a completely literal sense with the understanding that all the symbols represent something literally specific. Under no circumstances is it to be seen as a book of past history, as there is no way you or anyone else can make such a distortion of things yet to come an imaginary history book!

Face it, none of you Preterists were ever provided the gift of prophecy by the Holy Spirit and should cease attempting to make a shambles of any and all biblical prophecy.

Isa.28:2 is a mild example of the power of God, which is multiplied many times over during the great tribulation. So you have done no more than prove one of my points.

I have no more time tonight to debunk the rest of your lengthy rhetoric, but will return when and as I have the time to do so.

Blessings,

Quasar