Resurrection: What, who, and when?

[Stormcrow]

The subject of the resurrection came up in another thread where it was off-topic, so I created this thread to give this really important topic a place where it can be discussed. First, a little background on the resurrection from the Jewish Encyclopedia, which you should read here before addressing this issue:

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=233&letter=R

The great thing about this article is that it gives us both a historical basis and a Jewish perspective by which we can understand this idea. I think it's it's important to understand what exactly the resurrection meant to the Jews of Paul's time so that we can understand what he wrote in I Corinthians 15 about it.

{50} Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. {51} Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, {52} in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. {53} For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 1 Corinthians 15:50-53 (NASB)
​

I also believe a deeper understanding of this idea of a resurrection can help us understand what Christ meant when He spoke to Martha outside Lazarus's tomb.

{23} Jesus *said to her, "Your brother will rise again." {24} Martha *said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." {25} Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, {26} and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?" {27} She *said to Him, "Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world." John 11:23-27 (NASB)
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The source cited above gives us a road map for understanding the resurrection as both Paul, Jesus, and the apostles understood it. So with that in mind, here's a passage from the book of Job that gives us a first glimpse of the idea of death and resurrection from the ancient Jewish perspective:

{13} "Oh that You would hide me in Sheol, That You would conceal me until Your wrath returns to You, That You would set a limit for me and remember me! {14} "If a man dies, will he live again? All the days of my struggle I will wait Until my change comes. {15} "You will call, and I will answer You; You will long for the work of Your hands. Job 14:13-15 (NASB)

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Let the study and comment begin!

 

[handy]

I would imagine what shaped Paul and the early church's perception of the resurrection the most was the resurrection of Jesus Himself.

Jesus said, "Why are you troubled and why do doubts arise in your hearts? See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have. (Luke 24:38-39)

 

[noble]

Hi Stormcrow;

First, a little background on the resurrection from the Jewish
Encyclopedia, which you should read here before addressing this issue:

I read the link.

In fact I read the link quite a few times.

What really does the link conclude?

noble

 

[noble]

Hi Stormcrow;

I followed your link ever farther and came across this:

esurrection of the Dead.


In addition to this conception of the Day of the Lord, the Prophets
developed the hope of an ideal Messianic future through the reign of a son of
the house of David—the golden age of paradisiacal bliss, of which the
traditions of all the ancient nations spoke (see Dillmann's commentary to Gen.
ii-iii., p. 46). It would come in the form of a world of perfect peace and
harmony among all creatures, the angelic state of man before his sin (Isa. xi.
1-10, lxv. 17-25: "new heavens and a new earth"). It was only a step further to
predict the visitation of all the kingdoms of the earth, to be followed by the
swallowing up of death forever and a resurrection of the dead in Israel, so
that all the people of the Lord might witness the glorious salvation (Isa.
xxiv. 21-xxv. 8, xxvi. 19). The hope of resurrection had been expressed by
Ezekiel only with reference to the Jewish nation as such (Ezek. xxxvii.). Under
Persian influence, however, the doctrine of resurrection underwent a change,
and was made part of the Day of Judgment; hence in Dan. xii. 2 the resurrection
is extended to both the wicked and the righteous: the latter "shall awake to
everlasting life," the former "to shame and everlasting horror" (A. V.
"contempt").

It is especially nice for me to see that it is accepted that the resurrection if Daniel 12 includes both the wicked and the righteous. That is fought tooth and nail by a lot of people even tho it os written right there.

noble

 

[reba]

Hi Stormcrow;

I followed your link ever farther and came across this:




It is especially nice for me to see that it is accepted that the resurrection if Daniel 12 includes both the wicked and the righteous. That is fought tooth and nail by a lot of people even tho it os written right there.

noble

Isn't this what our Lord says in John?

 

[Stormcrow]

Hi Stormcrow;



I read the link.

In fact I read the link quite a few times.

What really does the link conclude?

noble

The information in the link itself draws no conclusions. It is simply reference material in encyclopedic form that can give us a starting point for defining and understanding what this all meant to the Jews.

I posted this thread because - as alluded to in my OP - the "God's kingdom on earth" thread was getting derailed by the discussion of I Corinthians, and thought this discussion deserved a thread of its own.

Beyond that, I found the reference in Job interesting, as I had never come across any other Old Testament references to the resurrection other than Daniel 12. I figured there had to be others given that I find it hard to believe Judaism would've created a whole doctrine out of one short passage (like that NEVER happens in evangelicalism :eeeekkk) but - while I had searched for them before - I had never found them.

Finally, the source from the Jewish Encyclopedia was only intended to start a discussion, not end it. I don't know if it will really help us move closer to an understanding of I Corinthians (and other passages) that can definitively address the issues argued in that other thread, but I figured it couldn't hurt to start with some background information.

Peace. Out.

 

[noble]

Isn't this what our Lord says in John?

In John 5?

I would say all of the references to resurrection except Rev 20:4 and 6 have to be the same resurrection of the dead.

Yes, no, maybe?????

noble

 

[noble]

Hi Stormcrow;

The information in the link itself draws no conclusions. It is simply reference
material in encyclopedic form that can give us a starting point for defining and
understanding what this all meant to the Jews.

Good and thank you, I thought I was missing a very important point.

Beyond that, I found the reference in Job interesting, as I had never come
across any other Old Testament references to the resurrection other than Daniel
12.

I have memorized very little of the OT and can not remember where anything is there, so I didn't remember those verses either.

Anyway can I start with the FIRST resurrection of Rev 20:4 and 6. That is my favorite area of discussion and there is plenty of variation in it's interpretation to keep things interesting.

To me verses 4 and 6 point out the qualifications of the participants of the first resurrection.

1) They have been killed, beheaded is the cause of death literally speaking
2) They have or had some connnection with the tribulation by the reference to the beast and the mark.
3) They are righteous
4) They are men as they become priests...

Further to this we know their souls are in heaven and those souls will come to life and reign for 1000 years literal or figurative, WITH Jesus Christ.

This criteria limits who can participate in this first resurrection which starts off the 1000 year reign with Christ. One person who does not fit the criteria is Daniel. Being Daniel can not be in this resurrection of the dead, and being that the resurrection Daniel WILL be in is at the time of the distress or great tribulation, it follows that the first resurrection is 1000 years before that. 1000 years before the great trib, Jesus is in heaven so this resurrection of the dead is to heaven and does not occur on earth as is the meaning for some people. Next we know that the resurrection is not of the earthly body as that body remains in the grave as there is no allowance for flesh and blood.

So there is how I see the first resurrection of the dead. 1000 years, biblically speaking, before the great trib/parousia. I see it as a resurrection of the persons soul, not their physical body, and I see the destination of those resurrected people as heaven. As far as I am concerned I would believe this event to have taken place already, in the first century, but that is not spelled out in any of the verses talked about here.

noble

 

[handy]

I see it as a resurrection of the persons soul, not their physical body, and I see the destination of those resurrected people as heaven.

I've never been able to understand the idea of a "resurrection of the soul". There is no example of such in the Scriptures, all resurrections were of the body not just a soul.

Jesus is in heaven as of now in bodily form. He was resurrected in bodily form and ascended into heaven in bodily form. Where then the idea of a "resurrection of the soul" as opposed to the body and how is a "soul" to operate here on earth without a body. I'm curious as to the concept.

 

[jasoncran]

will the full preterists explain that the Lord said the meek shall INHERIT the earth?

if eternal life is in heaven then how then is that possible?

 

[handy]

I'm not necessarily a preterist...I really don't delve into eschatology all that much, I'm a wait and be watchful kind of gal...

But, I don't think that the Bible teaches us that heaven itself is our final destination. There will be a new heave and a new earth created, and I believe we will live on the new earth. Life will be eternal here on the new earth and we will be able to walk with God just as Adam and Eve did in the garden, for there will be no sin or death.

 

[jasoncran]

your and my position isnt that different. god made man for the earth. why we even teached we are redeemed. redeemed to be what we are meant to be fully human made in the image of god.

 

[reba]

totopic



I dont want to back to topic




​

 

[reba]

Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. Is this dead as in body dead or dead in sin?

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[handy]

Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. Is this dead as in body dead or dead in sin?

I think the full text makes it quite clear that its speaking of dead as in body dead.

I find this to be one of those prophetic utterances that had a dual fulfillment...a sort of limited one to verify the prophesy and then a greater one, not yet fulfilled. This "dual fulfillment" happened quite often and the purpose of it was to establish that the prophet (or in this case Prophet) was speaking the truth.

Jesus said that the hour "now is" that the dead would hear and shall live. This prophecy came true in a limited way when Jesus was crucified. Tombs were opened and many bodies of saints were raised and they walked about the city appearing to many. (Matthew 27:51-52)

That text makes it clear that it is a bodily resurrection, not a spiritual one.

 

[noble]

Hi reba;

Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Is this dead as in body dead or dead in
sin?

Dead body and dead (sleeping) soul. The soul is what is raised to life and fitted or clothed with the spiritual and heavenly body of 2 Cor 5:1-8. The earth body decays and rots in the grave and returns to dust.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Absolutely, as the general resurrection which is at the time of the great trib/parousia involves both the wicked and the righteous. All resurrections are to heaven or wherever we can be raised to to be condemned.

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Exactly. The biblical last day, the end of the ages the harvest of the earth the time of the great trib/parousia. Both wicked and righteous, other than those of the first resurrection, will be raised to eternal life in heaven on the last day. The end of the age/world is in these verses:

Hebrews 9 NIV 1984
But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

KJV
26For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Then it shows the last day would be in this generation:

1 Cor 10
11Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

How does that all fit?

noble

 

[noble]

Hi handy;

That text makes it clear that it is a bodily resurrection, not a spiritual one.

The physical bodied resurrection is very common on these boards. May I ask what spells out to you that it is physical rather than spiritual? I know what many use, but I'm curious about this particular case.

Thanks

noble

 

[handy]

Noble,

Do you not believe in a bodily resurrection? I guess I'm a bit confused as to where you are coming from.

Again:

Jesus said, "Why are you troubled and why do doubts arise in your hearts? See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have. (Luke 24:38-39)

We know this body was the same (yet transformed) as the body He died in because He later invited Thomas to insert his finger into the holes in His hands and side.

Also, the fact that the tombs were opened and the text does say "bodies" of those saints who had died were resurrected and walked into the city where many witnessed them.

The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many. Matthew 27:52-53

You had said earlier, "Next we know that the resurrection is not of the earthly body as that body remains in the grave as there is no allowance for flesh and blood."

I'm not sure where you get that there is "no allowance for flesh and blood" when speaking of our resurrected bodies.

 

[handy]

Hi handy;



The physical bodied resurrection is very common on these boards. May I ask what spells out to you that it is physical rather than spiritual? I know what many use, but I'm curious about this particular case.

Thanks

noble

Well, let's just unpack the quoted texts:

"Why are you troubled and why do doubts arise in your hearts? See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have. (Luke 24:38-39)

Jesus states outright that a spirit does not flesh and bones but that the disciples could see that He did...He invited them to touch Him and see.

Things really cannot get much clearer than that, could they?

 

[Stormcrow]

I'm not sure where you get that there is "no allowance for flesh and blood" when speaking of our resurrected bodies.

This goes to the heart of the discussion from the other thread regarding I Corinthians 15, and why I think this is a good discussion to have:

{35} But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?" {36} You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies; {37} and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else.

{38} But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own. {39} All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish. {40} There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another.

{41} There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.

{42} So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; {43} it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; {44} it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

{45} So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

{46} However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. {47} The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. {48} As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. {49} Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.

{50} Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

{51} Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, {52} in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. {53} For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.

{54} But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. {55} "O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?"

{56} The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; {57} but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 15:35-57 (NASB)
​

That's essentially what this conversation is all about.

We know physical in this context refers to flesh and blood: the corporeal, but does it follow then that spiritual means ethereal (ghostly, non-corporeal)?

Or does spiritual mean supernatural in the strictest sense of the word: "above the natural?" In other words, is our spiritual body not simply a ghostly apparition - which is what most people think when they think of the spiritual body - but a physical body created to operate in a wholly different environment than we can possibly imagine?

Would not this harmonize Christ's resurrection with the resurrection of those who follow: all receiving bodies made for a completely different environment and eternal existence yet - in Christ's case - capable of existing in this world, too?

I think what needs to be defined as well is the idea of a spiritual body. I mean if spirit means non-corporeal, doesn't that make the phrase "spiritual body" an oxymoron?

The problem, as I see it, is that these terms are not adequately defined.