Revelation 13

[Stormcrow]

Let's try that again (as I misread your post to me, Jason):

then lets look at the greek word and compare with the judgment of peter in context in 2 peter.

john 3:16 note kosmon
http://interlinearbible.org/john/3-16.htm

kosmon
http://concordances.org/greek/2889.htm

Yep, that's one word for world. It also means "orderly arrangement" as could be used to describe a society or nations. Don't see what this has to do with 2 Peter 3 yet.

and 2 peter 3:10
http://biblos.com/2_peter/3-10.htm
note the word ge

http://concordances.org/greek/1093.htm
2 peter 3:13

I know the word "ge" very well. It's also used here:

{7} BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth [ge] will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen. Revelation 1:7 (NASB)

And here's how Young's Literal translates it:

{7} Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye, even those who did pierce him, [what did Christ say to Caiaphas at His trial again? Look at Matthew 26:64.] and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen! Revelation 1:7 (YLT)

What was that land again???

{10} "I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn. {11} "In that day there will be great mourning in Jerusalem...Zechariah 12:10-11 (NASB)

What burned up, Jason? The land. The land of what? The land of Judah. The Temple and Jerusalem were destroyed by fire, making way for a "new heaven and earth."

Instead of shooting me down, you just helped make my point. Many thanks!

 

[Stormcrow]

so we shoudnt also grow in grace as he is only talking to them?

There are universal truths that can be drawn from specific situations. This is one of them.

But why do you ask? Would you like to stop growing in grace?

 

[Stormcrow]

stormcrow believes that jesus wont judge man again and theres no final judgment for all men on the earth.

(Pssst! Stormcrow is in the room and can "speak" for himself, thank you.)

{27} ...it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment... Hebrews 9:27 (NASB)

We will all be judged sooner or later.

 

[jasoncran]

I think your taking that point for beyond its application. Certainly the dissolution of the Old Covenant , has global effect, and is Scripturally called the' end of the world', without any of the action taking place far from Jerusalem. And the connotation of the 'last Adam' is at least in the inauguration of the NH&E. Neither of these take any support from a time/world ending . Death is over come as the believer already has eternal life. You know Jesus said the believer would never die, and these facts must be part of the consideration against the blanket statement above. This is no less true because we wait for death's absolute destruction on the last day.

never die, so jesus didnt raise?

hmm my bible says that the gospel says that on the third day he arose and that is what paul was talking about.

our souls arent all we are. jesus will appear again bodily. you argued that with stormcrow on that.

acts 1

9And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven

and one thessalonians 4

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

that has happened? hmm must have happened JOHN the writer didnt know and didnt see it.
funny thing is this what he taught papius

Papius was a friend and companion of Polycarp, and may have been a disciple of John. He made it a point to collect stories from men who personally knew the Apostles. This is confirmed by Irenaeus and Eusebius, and also by the language of his own writting. He speaks of Peter and Andrew in the past tense (as though they had already been martyred), but John in the present tense. This would indicate that he was alive at the same time as John, and either know him personally, or carefully inquired with those who were still in contact with him about his teachings. Unfortunately only a few fragments of his writings have survived, some of which are sections of his work quoted by other early Christians in their writings. What we do have is valuable. These small sections of his writing gives us a great deal of insight into early 2nd century Christianity. Papius, like nearly all of the other Christians of his time, believed there would be a future literal Millennium in which Christ would return, restore the creation, and rule from Jerusalem. Below is a section taken from Irenaeus, "Against Heresies," Book V, Chapter XXXIII, regarding Papius and the Millennium;

the problem for you hitch we are going to be on the earth not in heaven forever, why on earth would God have to even raise jesus ?he could have him die on the cross and have talked about being in heaven forever.

if jesus was raised and in acts theres a ressurection of the body and paul mentions a bodily one theres going to be ressurection.

one for the just and the unjust.

that heresy mentioned there that they deal with the early church is very similiar to the things preterists say on the millenium from what i heard and demands an investigation. surely you dont want to place yourself in the position to know more about christ's teaching then the disciples themselves and a jewish one at that!

sorry i dont count or spritualise a ressurection of the saints to the spirit only. why then comfort each other with that if only that is the way?paul clearly mentions a return from the lord in bodily form. and we shall be like that as well.

 

[jasoncran]

(Pssst! Stormcrow is in the room and can "speak" for himself, thank you.)

{27} ...it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment... Hebrews 9:27 (NASB)

We will all be judged sooner or later.

context. he is speaking hebrews alive then.

and also what do you know of the idea of the ruach? probably little.

the earth according to the sages has a soul and paul said clearly that the earth and creation cries for the redemption.

hmm if that is already done why is the the earth dying and still groaning?

 

[jasoncran]

There are universal truths that can be drawn from specific situations. This is one of them.

But why do you ask? Would you like to stop growing in grace?

nope calling for constinancy if the jugdment is to the jews and them in that age only then there must be only them.

i have a problem with your views, did god make the earth for simply to let it die? what was gods plan for man originally? heaven or earth? mans sin doesnt change gods plan at all.it merely means that he gets to use it for his glory in that the sinner either repents or is judged.


if he repents grace and mercy and if not justice is served. why how calvinstic, but god wouldnt do that , he too soft and wont allow man to learn of his nature by these things. nah we are safe now as the earth will always have this sin and till when the sun dies out..

but wait theres this annoying promise.
genesis 8

22While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

and genesis 9

13I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.

14And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud:
15And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.
16And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth. 17And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth

 

[Lehigh3]

context. he is speaking hebrews alive then.

and also what do you know of the idea of the ruach? probably little.

the earth according to the sages has a soul and paul said clearly that the earth and creation cries for the redemption.

hmm if that is already done why is the the earth dying and still groaning?

I disagree jason. Heb.9:27 is not a temporal judgment. It is an ongoing fact. It was compared to the high priest going into the HoH once a year for the sins of the ppl. Continuing to show that Christ entered once & for all for sin in the New covenant.
Man IS to die once, then the judgment. We ALL must appear before the judgment seat of Christ. Christians are not condemned (Rom.8:1) but to appear before the judgment seat of Christ is still required for ALL.

The "earth" has a soul? Matter & energy doesn't breathe. Only when the "earth" is used symbolically as peoples in a nation (like earth almost always refers to Israel the land, & the sea to the gentiles) would it have a soul.

The earth, or rather mankind already received the gift of redemption. It is for people. Paul preached the gospel to all creation. In that context "creation" means mankind, not plants & animals.

The earth will wear out like a glove. (Isa.51:6)

One only should look at the canon of the O.T. Not anything else which is tainted with mythology & man-made philosophies.

 

[Stormcrow]

did god make the earth for simply to let it die?

If He had chosen to do just that, who would we be to argue with Him?

However, the whole earth (this shiny blue, watery ball hanging in the vacuum of space) is NOT what the passage in 2 Peter 3 is referring to!

When you look at the entirety of apostolic thought, including the words of Christ, then compare them to Old Testament prophecies regarding the day of the Lord and the Babylonian siege of Jerusalem, they are all pointing to this same idea of God's judgment being poured out on Jerusalem and her people.

There are many "days of the Lord" in the OT, and not one of them lead to the destruction of the entire planet as we know it. Each was a time of judgment for a specific nation and a specific reason. Even Noah's flood did not destroy the planet: it simply killed all terrestrial (land-dwelling) life.

I don't have time to address all the other "problems" you have with my view, but hopefully - in having dealt with just this one - you'll begin to get a sense of what Christ and the apostles were really saying.

 

[Stormcrow]

I believe scriptures were written for the Church founded by Christ. I personally cannot agree with the fact that every letter written for the church back then only applied to the church back then.

Everything was written for us. Not everything was written to us. There's a difference.

Of course there are instances where the apostles are speaking about direct circumstances that the church of their day faced. But the Blessed Hope, how to live righteously, how we should behave, messages given to the church about the end of time....I believe that they still apply to the church today.

What does the Word say about those things in which we believe?

I definitely won't criticize you for your opinon.

Nor I you.

But I don't think its possible to have a productive conversation with someone who is of the staunch opinon that this event quoted above has already taken place.

As I have repeatedly shown in this - and other threads - my "opinion" is closest to that which the apostles were lead to believe by none other than Christ Himself. If I am wrong, than Christ mislead them. I have not given you my opinion. I have provided nothing but the words of Christ and the apostles to support their view. Had you read anything I wrote with an open mind, this would've become clear to you. The truth is all there. You just have to be willing to put what you believe about it aside.

I don't think our earth is any newer and our heavens any different than they were back in Christ time.

Then you don't understand what the phrase "heaven and earth" meant to a Torah trained and believing Jew of the Temple age. You should start with trying to understand that.

 

[smaller]

The postulation that full preterists put into play is that heaven and earth meant the temple in Jerusalem in 70 a.d?

lol

Jesus spoke these Words about heaven and earth and His Words.

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Apparently the logic of those holders do not see that their understandings logically REQUIRE 'all' the Words Jesus 'supposedly' spoke of in these matters to have ALSO passed away?

No, no conflict of reasoning there. nope.

sure...

s

 

[D4Christ]

As I have repeatedly shown in this - and other threads - my "opinion" is closest to that which the apostles were lead to believe by none other than Christ Himself. If I am wrong, than Christ mislead them. I have not given you my opinion. I have provided nothing but the words of Christ and the apostles to support their view. Had you read anything I wrote with an open mind, this would've become clear to you. The truth is all there. You just have to be willing to put what you believe about it aside.

Storm...did a little research on Preterism on the web. Found out some interesting information...and that's all I've got say about that. I think we should handle our discourse a little differently.

You come from the pov that your understanding of scripture is the only correct way to understand scripture. That's fine. But when trying to convince or explain you pov to me (and other's who may disagree with you), you have to see things from the way I perceive scriptures. In your mind your saying all the right things but your not answering the specific questions that I have. Your core beliefs are not my beliefs, so to base your responses on something that makes perfectly good sense to you, will and does seem foreign to me.

How about this....Since you want to teach, let me ask the questions. Let me give you this disclaimer though. No matter how logical preterism is to you, if you claim a prophecy/section of scripture has been fulfilled, then, for me to agree, all of that prophecy/scripture has to be complete. If any part of criteria for prophecy is missing I won't be able to agree...and I hope you can understand that.

Are you ready for my 1st question?

Blessings,
Dee

 

[Stormcrow]

you have to see things from the way I perceive scriptures.

I came from a traditional fundy/evangelical background, so I do understand the way you perceive these letters. It's the same way I used to view them. I can't see them that way anymore. Spending a great deal of time studying the Old Testament changed my views.

Are you ready for my 1st question?

Shoot.

Actually, since this is Taylor's thread and anything we discuss is going to be off-topic, maybe you could start a new thread. Or maybe a private thread open only to those with an invitation. I think that might improve the signal-to-noise ratio dramatically.

 

[reba]

The postulation that full preterists put into play is that heaven and earth meant the temple in Jerusalem in 70 a.d?

lol

Jesus spoke these Words about heaven and earth and His Words.

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Apparently the logic of those holders do not see that their understandings logically REQUIRE 'all' the Words Jesus 'supposedly' spoke of in these matters to have ALSO passed away?

No, no conflict of reasoning there. nope.

sure...

s

Smaller i am no full preterist but didn't the temple pass away?

 

[reba]

I came from a traditional fundy/evangelical background, so I do understand the way you perceive these letters. It's the same way I used to view them. I can't see them that way anymore. Spending a great deal of time studying the Old Testament changed my views.

Shoot.

Actually, since this is Taylor's thread and anything we discuss is going to be off-topic, maybe you could start a new thread. Or maybe a private thread open only to those with an invitation. I think that might improve the signal-to-noise ratio dramatically.

Good idea reba

 

[smaller]

Smaller i am no full preterist but didn't the temple pass away?

The Jesus Words did as well. Get it?

But that is NOT what Jesus said. Did Jesus say His Words will pass away?

No.

IF the full preterist positions claim Jesus was speaking of temple Jerusalem 70 a.d THEN logic dictates His Words passed away. Sorry, not possible to logically remedy that position.

Did Jesus' Words pass away? Shall not is pretty specific.

Psalm 56:5
Every day they wrest my words -

Read it.

s

 

[Stormcrow]

Jesus spoke these Words about heaven and earth and His Words.

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Do you understand what the word "but" means? It's a conjunction that compares and contrasts:
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Christ's words will not pass away even though heaven and earth will!

 

[smaller]

Do you understand what the word "but" means? It's a conjunction that compares and contrasts:
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Christ's words will not pass away even though heaven and earth will!

Just a small portion of Jesus' Words that passed away and are 'no longer valid' using full preterist positions. Logic dictates those Words are now passed away. Jesus said 'SHALL NOT pass away.' He certainly could have said 'My Words shall not pass away, except for those Words that apply when the temple will be destroyed.

s

 

[reba]

The Jesus Words did as well. Get it?

But that is NOT what Jesus said. Did Jesus say His Words will pass away?

No.

IF the full preterist positions claim Jesus was speaking of temple Jerusalem 70 a.d THEN logic dictates His Words passed away. Sorry, not possible to logically remedy that position.

Did Jesus' Words pass away? Shall not is pretty specific.

Psalm 56:5
Every day they wrest my words -

Read it.

s

You totally lost me ... :eeeekkk There are a number of your posts that loose me

 

[smaller]

You totally lost me ... :eeeekkk There are a number of your posts that loose me

Reba, if Jesus Words were speaking of the temple of 70a.d. being heaven and earth and them passing away, His Words 'supposedly' regarding that PASSED AWAY and are no longer applicable, which is not a logical possibility.

Think about it for a minute. It should come to you.

s

 

[Stormcrow]

if Jesus Words were speaking of the temple of 70a.d. being heaven and earth and them passing away, His Words 'supposedly' regarding that PASSED AWAY and are no longer applicable, which is not a logical possibility.

Yeah. Whatever. I spent 5 minutes trying to make sense of that.

I'll never get those 5 minutes back. Thanks.