Revelation 20:4-6

[warfrog]

"And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years."

My question is what is your interpretation and understanding? There is also questions within my understandings below.

These are things I've understood from this scripture alone while taking it within:

-The souls had been beheaded for thier witness of Jesus and the word of God, meaning they were already spiritually Christ's, having accepted the blood of the Lamb, they were beheaded for beng saints of Christ.

-Those who dont live again are called "the rest of the dead" which means the first must also be referred as dead, since the second group is "the rest of the dead" yet the first group are saints, spiritually they cant be dead, physically they could be referred also as dead, making the "rest of the dead" fit in signifigance of both being referred as "dead"

-the saints who were beheaded, live and reign for a thousand years, yet the dead do not, meaning at th beggining of the 1000 the saints live again, how can spiritual life recieve spirtual life? They were beheaded for spiritual life they had in Christ and we are told they "live/d" again twice in these scriptures.
So what is this living again after already recieving the blood of the Lamb, which is life, redemption, Christ's purchase?
If not literally bodily resurrection as Christ recieved and we are promised and have the Holy Spirit in gaurentee of, what is "live/d again?"

-If the spiritual are beheaded for their faith and following of Christ, for thier sainthood in Christ, and they live for 1000 years, what makes that thousand years not literal considering what is mentioned above? (saints cant be killed spiritually, yet those saints are beheaded and refrenced as dead twice (living again and the second group called rest of the dead, signifying the first as also having a "dead" meaning) and if saints cannot be spiritually killed by another, how then do they "live again" for a spiritual 1000 years? wouldnt they live again bodily for that 1000 years?

So I'll leave it at that for now, my biggest question for others which i like to show again so how can saints (as the were beheaded for thier witess to Christ and the word of God) be beheaded (which if they live again signifies a cut off of some form of life, and we know His cannot be taken from Him spiritually) and how can the those wit life in Christ recieve life again?

I leave tomorrow for my 28 days or so of work, I'll check out each persons replies as available before I leave, if I dot respond to your personal reply before that time I will when it becomes available if/when I come back.
thanks for your time, grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[warfrog]

I'm back for about 10 days, i can respond relatively quickly now 8)

 

[Beck]

-The souls had been beheaded for thier witness of Jesus and the word of God, meaning they were already spiritually Christ's, having accepted the blood of the Lamb, they were beheaded for beng saints of Christ.

Yes that's correct they were saints of the Most High and where martyred for the word of God, and for the name of Jesus.

-Those who dont live again are called "the rest of the dead" which means the first must also be referred as dead, since the second group is "the rest of the dead" yet the first group are saints, spiritually they cant be dead, physically they could be referred also as dead, making the "rest of the dead" fit in signifigance of both being referred as "dead"

First I think that the first group of Rev.20:4 only speaks of the 144,000 which are the first fruits. Now then if you have first fruits you also have a harvest time. In this second group you would have both the just and unjust. Just take a look at how John described this harvest in chapter 14.

-the saints who were beheaded, live and reign for a thousand years, yet the dead do not, meaning at th beggining of the 1000 the saints live again, how can spiritual life recieve spirtual life? They were beheaded for spiritual life they had in Christ and we are told they "live/d" again twice in these scriptures.
So what is this living again after already recieving the blood of the Lamb, which is life, redemption, Christ's purchase?
If not literally bodily resurrection as Christ recieved and we are promised and have the Holy Spirit in gaurentee of, what is "live/d again?"

When one receives the good news one has Life eternal. These are despected as Living and reigning with Christ a thousand years. One of the key points is how to understand the thousand year reign of Christ and how does that apply to those that have been martyred.

-If the spiritual are beheaded for their faith and following of Christ, for thier sainthood in Christ, and they live for 1000 years, what makes that thousand years not literal considering what is mentioned above? (saints cant be killed spiritually, yet those saints are beheaded and refrenced as dead twice (living again and the second group called rest of the dead, signifying the first as also having a "dead" meaning) and if saints cannot be spiritually killed by another, how then do they "live again" for a spiritual 1000 years? wouldnt they live again bodily for that 1000 years?

So I'll leave it at that for now, my biggest question for others which i like to show again so how can saints (as the were beheaded for thier witess to Christ and the word of God) be beheaded (which if they live again signifies a cut off of some form of life, and we know His cannot be taken from Him spiritually) and how can the those wit life in Christ recieve life again?

I leave tomorrow for my 28 days or so of work, I'll check out each persons replies as available before I leave, if I dot respond to your personal reply before that time I will when it becomes available if/when I come back.
thanks for your time, grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Here's a question why is there only mention of the first group of saints being beheaded while the rest of the dead remains until the ending of the thousand years? Doesn't that place martydom first before other's?

 

[warfrog]

When one receives the good news one has Life eternal. These are despected as Living and reigning with Christ a thousand years. One of the key points is how to understand the thousand year reign of Christ and how does that apply to those that have been martyred.

It cant possibly be that for Rev 4-6, we agree they are saints who were martyred, we also know that this specific group did not have anything to do with the beast, his mark or his image and that Christ ends the beast's reign at His coming. (cast into the lake of fire)
Now these saints are then beheaded for thier witness of Christ and the word of God, then we are told they live and reign 1000 years following that beheading, not they lived and reigned 1000 years and then were beheaded for thier witness to Christ and the word of God.

That conradicts what i read you saying above that when we accept the blood of the lamb we live and reign with Christ 1000 years, not we will live and reign 1000 years, we recieve the promise of te Holy Spirit which is the gaurentee of the inheritance, we dont actually recieve that inheritance currently at that time, Rev 4-6 shows that reception, saints are killed for thier witness and the word of God and then live and reign for a thousand years, which the mention of the beast's image ext and not having anything to do with it also signifies this event occuring at Christ's return.
The rest of the dead are not saints, the rest of the dead are the ones who Christ kills with the word of His mouth in Rev 19 and from that time and all time before who did not accept the blood of the Lamb, they are the dead to be judged in Rev 20:11-15 and must await until the thousand years to live again and recieve thier judgement.

Why? you may ask. Well for their fellow brethren to join them, Gog and Magog of the end of the thousand years.


What is known is that at Christ's return all saints are resurrected, Rev 4-6 however focuses on the tribulation specific saints, that doesnt disclude all saints from all time as scripture confirms all will be gathered (those who sleep in Christ and those who are alive at His coming) that will live and reign 1000 years, Rev 4-6 just puts the focus directly on those tribulation specific saints showing the timing of the resurrection and the starting point of that 1000 years as there is several key events that take place specifically with that thousand years which are:

1.the living and reigning of the saints at the beggining of the 1000 years
2.the sealing, chaining and casting of Satan into the bottomless pit at the beggining of that thousand years
3.the rest of the dead having to wait till the end of the thousand years until they can live again
4.the release of Satan and the final deception of the people of the world at the end of the 1000 years, Gog and Magog, the people numbered as the sand of the sea

 

[Lehigh3]

The "thousand years" preceded Christ's 2nd coming. The thousand years just means "a long time."

2 Options for the "thousand years."
1) The time Satan was bound in the OT- & not very active after he was cursed in the garden. Loosed for a "short time" during the N.T. period- very active & indwelt ppl.
2) When Christ "bound the strongman" at the cross & loosed him for the great tribulation.

The apostles sat on thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. They are the martyrs.

They were the firstfruits of the Spirit the first resurrection. The rest of the dead, as you said, did not live again till after the apostles "thousand years of reigning with Christ" (a long time) were finished.
They are raised. Some to everlasting life, some to condemnation. Just as Jesus said in John 5. Those who did good, received eternal life- those who did evil- got condemnation.

The "first resurrection" as beck said, is about the martyrs. And the throne judgment is for the "tares." The "tares" were killed in the great tribulation, but the "wheat" escaped & were saved from death.

 

[warfrog]

The "thousand years" preceded Christ's 2nd coming. The thousand years just means "a long time."

2 Options for the "thousand years."
1) The time Satan was bound in the OT- & not very active after he was cursed in the garden. Loosed for a "short time" during the N.T. period- very active & indwelt ppl.
2) When Christ "bound the strongman" at the cross & loosed him for the great tribulation.

The apostles sat on thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. They are the martyrs.

They were the firstfruits of the Spirit the first resurrection. The rest of the dead, as you said, did not live again till after the apostles "thousand years of reigning with Christ" (a long time) were finished.
They are raised. Some to everlasting life, some to condemnation. Just as Jesus said in John 5. Those who did good, received eternal life- those who did evil- got condemnation.

The "first resurrection" as beck said, is about the martyrs. And the throne judgment is for the "tares." The "tares" were killed in the great tribulation, but the "wheat" escaped & were saved from death.

The point is the 1000 years even if you dont veiw it as a thousand years or as a long time doesnt occur until those souls who had been beheaded for thier witness of Christ and the word of God. Who did not worship the beast or recieve his mark, live and reign with Christ.

How then if i try to understand what you are saying can a saint be beheaded for thier witness to Christ and the word of God and then live again? How is that possible?
How can the spiritual be beheaded and referred as dead? Only One has power over the soul and that death is the lake of fire, yet both these groups do no recieve either for a thousand years at least, the souls who were beheaded for thier witness to Christ and the word of God live for that thousad years and the rest of the dead do not.

 

[jasoncran]

well first off the tribulation saints in that first is the reason i dont buy into the seven year trib in part. as well who per paul will judge the world if what was only them? so either its as the preterists say or something more. we are at present in the great tribulation. arent there brethren who in muslim countries that die for the lord?

is only dying for the lord while beheaded the way to martydom or was it something else.

 

[warfrog]

well first off the tribulation saints in that first is the reason i dont buy into the seven year trib in part. as well who per paul will judge the world if what was only them? so either its as the preterists say or something more. we are at present in the great tribulation. arent there brethren who in muslim countries that die for the lord?

is only dying for the lord while beheaded the way to martydom or was it something else.

Its something else, i dont beleive beheaded is meant literally to mean your head cut off, its seems to me to have the simple meaning of physical death.
Just as it says "the rest of the dead" for those who do not live again, which implies that the first group of souls must be also seen as dead in some form if the rest of the people are called "rest of the dead"

 

[jasoncran]

Its something else, i dont beleive beheaded is meant literally to mean your head cut off, its seems to me to have the simple meaning of physical death.
Just as it says "the rest of the dead" for those who do not live again, which implies that the first group of souls must be also seen as dead in some form if the rest of the people are called "rest of the dead"

these are they which we didnt recieve the mark of the beast, kept the testimonies , neither did the worship the beast but were beheaded for not recieving the mark.

they died first in that manner then went up to heaven.

they were in heaven and then when the lord comes to the earth. and i saw thrones and they that were on them were those that died in the great tribulation. that means that they died and when God felt the need to raise them he did.

keep in mind that God could let us rest in death and theres alot of symbology to any vision of heaven. is there a literal feast in heaven. do angels or men wear crowns in heaven?

so theres sheep in heaven and one that is also the son of God that was slain. a lamb having blood of being slain is an image to what the son of God was often called.

 

[Lehigh3]

The point is the 1000 years even if you dont veiw it as a thousand years or as a long time doesnt occur until those souls who had been beheaded for thier witness of Christ and the word of God. Who did not worship the beast or recieve his mark, live and reign with Christ.

How then if i try to understand what you are saying can a saint be beheaded for thier witness to Christ and the word of God and then live again? How is that possible?
How can the spiritual be beheaded and referred as dead? Only One has power over the soul and that death is the lake of fire, yet both these groups do no recieve either for a thousand years at least, the souls who were beheaded for thier witness to Christ and the word of God live for that thousad years and the rest of the dead do not.

Rev.20:4-6, (NKJV)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a[a] thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

The verses in purple are the martyrs & saints. The 1st sentence, "And I saw thrones, and they that sat on them" refers to the apostles- as Jesus told them that in the regeneration, they would sit on thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. That is the meaning here.
The next sentence includes all the faithful martyrs from in Rev.6,
Fifth Seal: The Cry of the Martyrs


9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

At the end of the great tribulation, more saints would have been killed. This is about them. They lived & reigned with Christ a thousand years. Their souls did not die even though they were martyred. But God considers their reigning with Him "a long time" - "a thousand years."

Notice all the verbs in the past tense. This has meaning that they already "reigned with Christ a thousand years."

There is no literal thousand year span after Christ comes. The church is promised to be a part of the New Jerusalem. The New Jerusalem is the kingdom of God (spiritually) & where "righteousness dwells." No more no less. It is here in the spiritual realm.

 

[jasoncran]

ok, so if this was before the cross and we were reading isiah 53.

" and we esteemed him not.." that was written 400 yrs before the lord death on the cross yet too in the past tense.

but yet we know that isiah predicted events that the lord went through.

 

[Elijah674]

Hi Warfrog, I see that you are on board!;)

Anyway here is how I see it. First off I do not see a living person with a seperate soul. They are A soul 'together' as I see it.

OK: Christ comes! The Saved DEAD ones are raised including the ones who died before taking any mark 666 from the beast. (meaning Church & Government as of Dan. 7) & we that are still alive will ALL be changed in a twinkling of an eye into [[bodily perfection as well as spiritual]].

We GO TO HEAVEN WITH CHRIST. Leaving [ALL WICKED STILL DEAD].

For 1000 years we will all take part in the JUDGEMENT of the EXECUTIONAL STAGE of these already judges lost ones. Christ say that when He comes again that He brings His reward with Him. (Eternal life or Eternal death, with millions of lost ones over the years + angels)

And the shortest verse in the Bible is 'Jesus Wept'! And before Rev. 21 finds New Jerusalem with [ALL TEARS WIPED AWAY], we find that we will ALL TAKE PART IN THIS ACCURATE INTRICATE JUDICIAL JUDGMENT! 1 Cor. 6:1-3.

And of course, God even has this all totally documented in the Record Books with every detail why these ones did not choose life eternal. (we might even find some there in these books who are not, because of our 'tame' profession of Love? we were just to meek to rock the boat?)

Eccl. 12:13-14 + Rev. 20:12 finds that this is the ONLY WAY the lost dead will be standing in heaven.. BY RECORD BOOKS Alone.

Most today will want to by/pass this first 1000 years while we are in heaven perhaps? But, it is truly time that we [NOW] have, which the LORD REQUIRES for us to get His work FINISHED, so that the lost ones can be WARNED while TIME IS STILL ON THEIR SIDE. Rev. 18:4

The 'Real' Love in heaven must FIRST BE FOUND ON EARTH by HIS Professed ones! Rev. 3:16 as I see it, if we are to be there. We know that the world 'c'hristian/wise (Rev. 17:1-5) will be party to the mark, and it will take total Obedience to die before dishonor to Christ! And one will be the 'much' less in number & no doubt be called about every thing under the sun!! + at the start will not be able to buy or sell in quarnteen... and then the death decree will follow! Matt. 10:25 on!

--Elijah

 

[Beck]

It cant possibly be that for Rev 4-6, we agree they are saints who were martyred, we also know that this specific group did not have anything to do with the beast, his mark or his image and that Christ ends the beast's reign at His coming. (cast into the lake of fire)
Now these saints are then beheaded for thier witness of Christ and the word of God, then we are told they live and reign 1000 years following that beheading, not they lived and reigned 1000 years and then were beheaded for thier witness to Christ and the word of God.

One thing we need to remember is that in Daniel's day there was a beast kingdom one of Babylon of which the king made a image that all shall worship. That should sound just like what John in Revelation reveals concerning the beast that comes out of the sea. These two parallel one being the type and the other the antitype. This was the sign that Jesus had told his disciples and those that followed him to flee to the mountains when they saw the Abomination of Desolation. And they did as he told them in AD66 which a short time after the city and temple was desolated. The people with ears to hear and eye to see with understanding that when they readed how Antiochus IV came and desecrated the temple that it was a foreshadow of what was to come and did come in 70AD as the end.

Knowing that Christ on the cross set these times in place becasue he was to go to his Father and rule with and rod of iron. Those saints that are martyred after Christ has also rule and reign with him in his kingdom. How? In the same why Jesus himself ruled and reigned after his death. Jesus to Caiaphas that he would hereafter [his death] he would see the son of man sitting on the right hand of power. Well do you think Caiaphas literally saw up into heaven at God's throne as saw Jesus sitting on his right hand? No. It's a figure of speech that intells the coming power of his judgment upon Jerusalem and that wicked generation, as Jesus called the Phraisees and scribed. In coming was seen by Caiaphas as the armies surrounded Jerusalem that all should have known that God's wrath was to be poured out. But as Jesus fortold that many false Christ and false teachers shall arised and deceive many to believe a lie. What was that lie, it was that God would deliver them from this army that surround them.

So this thousand years that I speak of from Christ to 70AD is that Jesus had given the keys of the kingdom to his disciples to go preach unto the world the good news. Each time one of his followers as saints of God was martyred by this beast or the false prophet they would then stand on mount zion as the 144,000 first fruits. This was in one day, but throughout this time period so if one of his saints where killed days before the ending of the thousand years it remains that they ruled and reigned with Christ for a thousand years for at the end all joined in that Judgment upon the whore [jerusalem] (Rev.19:1-3).

That conradicts what i read you saying above that when we accept the blood of the lamb we live and reign with Christ 1000 years, not we will live and reign 1000 years, we recieve the promise of te Holy Spirit which is the gaurentee of the inheritance, we dont actually recieve that inheritance currently at that time, Rev 4-6 shows that reception, saints are killed for thier witness and the word of God and then live and reign for a thousand years, which the mention of the beast's image ext and not having anything to do with it also signifies this event occuring at Christ's return.

All men must died a physical death, but those that are saved or saved from the second death. That second death is what Jesus descibed as one that can kill both the soul and body. This second death is what is said to be the Lake of fire as comes as God's wrath being poured out on the wicked. This is the very description of the destruction of Jerusalem were God's judged the wicked and separated them both soul and body.

So this thousand years is as but a Day of the Lord. Those martyred saints joined in with Christ judgment upon those that have killed them for their revenge.

The rest of the dead are not saints, the rest of the dead are the ones who Christ kills with the word of His mouth in Rev 19 and from that time and all time before who did not accept the blood of the Lamb, they are the dead to be judged in Rev 20:11-15 and must await until the thousand years to live again and recieve thier judgement.

Why? you may ask. Well for their fellow brethren to join them, Gog and Magog of the end of the thousand years.

I think you are missing out on alot of understanding. The rest of the death is from the same time frame as those of the first fruits, but are only raised to live again after the thosand years has finished. These are saints that have not being martyred but yet die in Christ along with those wicked. Jesus speaks of this in John 5:28-29.

What is known is that at Christ's return all saints are resurrected, Rev 4-6 however focuses on the tribulation specific saints, that doesnt disclude all saints from all time as scripture confirms all will be gathered (those who sleep in Christ and those who are alive at His coming) that will live and reign 1000 years, Rev 4-6 just puts the focus directly on those tribulation specific saints showing the timing of the resurrection and the starting point of that 1000 years as there is several key events that take place specifically with that thousand years which are:

1.the living and reigning of the saints at the beggining of the 1000 years
2.the sealing, chaining and casting of Satan into the bottomless pit at the beggining of that thousand years
3.the rest of the dead having to wait till the end of the thousand years until they can live again
4.the release of Satan and the final deception of the people of the world at the end of the 1000 years, Gog and Magog, the people numbered as the sand of the sea

I don't have time to response to this maybe latter.

 

[warfrog]

One thing we need to remember is that in Daniel's day there was a beast kingdom one of Babylon of which the king made a image that all shall worship. That should sound just like what John in Revelation reveals concerning the beast that comes out of the sea. These two parallel one being the type and the other the antitype. This was the sign that Jesus had told his disciples and those that followed him to flee to the mountains when they saw the Abomination of Desolation. And they did as he told them in AD66 which a short time after the city and temple was desolated. The people with ears to hear and eye to see with understanding that when they readed how Antiochus IV came and desecrated the temple that it was a foreshadow of what was to come and did come in 70AD as the end.

Im not one that agrees Antiochus fullfilled anything in Daniel regarding the visions of the end.
Also im highly not in agreement 70 A.D had any fulfillment other than not one of these stones shall stand upon another regarding the temple building and a couple other things Jesus mentions in the start of the "olivet discourse".
When Jesus mentioned to them to flee, i believe Revelation 12:13-17 gives that very vision and the reason they should flee which also matches Revelation 13:6-8 and Daniel 11:31-39.

Knowing that Christ on the cross set these times in place becasue he was to go to his Father and rule with and rod of iron. Those saints that are martyred after Christ has also rule and reign with him in his kingdom. How? In the same why Jesus himself ruled and reigned after his death. Jesus to Caiaphas that he would hereafter [his death] he would see the son of man sitting on the right hand of power. Well do you think Caiaphas literally saw up into heaven at God's throne as saw Jesus sitting on his right hand? No. It's a figure of speech that intells the coming power of his judgment upon Jerusalem and that wicked generation, as Jesus called the Phraisees and scribed. In coming was seen by Caiaphas as the armies surrounded Jerusalem that all should have known that God's wrath was to be poured out. But as Jesus fortold that many false Christ and false teachers shall arised and deceive many to believe a lie. What was that lie, it was that God would deliver them from this army that surround them

Yes i do beleive Caiaphus literally sees Christ ruling at the right hand of God and did following his death.
Revelation 6:9-11:
"When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed."

The lie is actually that a certian individual is God (little horn, man of lawlessness and the beast of the sea) and the people will beleive it, all who are not written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Daniel 7:20-21, 25, 8:23-25 compared with 2 Thessalonians 2:1-11 and Revelation 12:13-17, 13:1-18.
Which in all accounts speaks of an individual who 1. receives power not of his own accord, 2. exalts himself above God, making himself out as God and 3. an individual who is granted permission to war againts the saints and overcome them.
Striking no?

I'll respond to the rest when i can keep my eyes open lol, night.

 

[Beck]

Im not one that agrees Antiochus fullfilled anything in Daniel regarding the visions of the end.

Well if taking into consideration that there are four kingdoms mentioned to Daniel and these four kindoms begun with Babylon then it only can be that the four is Babylon, Median, Persia and Greece and from Greece an little horn.

Daniel 7:23 (KJV)
23Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

I know many want to group together the two kingdoms of Median and Perisa and try to place the Romans as the fourth kingdom. I believe that an error only when we read how Daniel is shown these fourth kingdom is when we fine that this little horn come out of that kingdom.

Daniel has a hard time understanding the vision in chapter 7 he then again in chapter 8 is given another vision and given again the interperation. This time with no uncertainty the fourth kingdom is Greece which was Alexander's kingdom being divided into four kingdoms. Two of these kingdoms is revealed to Daniel in chapter 11 as Ptolemies and Seleucid as kings of the north and south of which Antiochus IV ruled the Seleucid and the Little horn descibed in chapter 8 is said to come from these four kingdoms of Greece. No where is there any indication of Rome being the fourth kingdom from which this little horn comes out of.

As concering the end times we only need to read how Daniel is told that what is to befall his people in the latter days of the prince of Persia and the prince of Grecia. This end time is concerning their persecution by these princes that will be given for a time to rule over them as the beast kingdoms. The ending was when the Maccabees revolted and overtook the city to clean and redicate the temple.

Also im highly not in agreement 70 A.D had any fulfillment other than not one of these stones shall stand upon another regarding the temple building and a couple other things Jesus mentions in the start of the "olivet discourse".
When Jesus mentioned to them to flee, i believe Revelation 12:13-17 gives that very vision and the reason they should flee which also matches Revelation 13:6-8 and Daniel 11:31-39.

As you can see that Daniel and Revelation are parallel in how each one descibes one with a mouth that speaks great word against the most High and is given a time of 42 months or as Daniel time, times and half. Antiochus IV is given as a type and shadow of Titus that would come and make desolate the city and temple both only was given 42 months to bring about the desolation. In both cases where the persecution and even death of the people of God. Both descibe the end of time that ending of time is that they would have been made overcomers by their faithfulness which is clothed in white which is their righteousness. As Daniel this only take them holding out until the end which would come in 1335 days.

According to Jesus all of the things he had spoken was to come to pass in 'This' those that where in audience of Jesus that present generation. For it was that generation that he called the generation of vipers and proclaimed seven 'woes' unto them that judgment would come upon them. 'How can ye escape the damnation of hell'. How would they know to escape the sentence and judgment of death for if they did they would have repented that's what John the Baptist was preaching. Jesus said, "Verly I say unto to you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled".(Matt 23:36, 24:34 KVJ)

Yes i do beleive Caiaphus literally sees Christ ruling at the right hand of God and did following his death.

Really? I see that as a figure of speech which Jesus used OT language to reveal that what Caiaphus would see would be the 'power' of the son of man coming in clouds where with that speaks of judgment as Christ is given that power to judge.

This 'see' isn't with their literal eyes, but rather how Jesus said to the Pharisees that they said that they see 'understand with knowledge'. (John 9:41) These where blind leader of the blind, but on that day of the Lord all men will see 'understand' even those Pharisees/high priest Caiaphus would understand that Jesus was the Messiah, but it will be to late for their judgment/reward was in his hand.

Revelation 6:9-11:
"When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed."

The lie is actually that a certian individual is God (little horn, man of lawlessness and the beast of the sea) and the people will beleive it, all who are not written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Daniel 7:20-21, 25, 8:23-25 compared with 2 Thessalonians 2:1-11 and Revelation 12:13-17, 13:1-18.

Which in all accounts speaks of an individual who 1. receives power not of his own accord, 2. exalts himself above God, making himself out as God and 3. an individual who is granted permission to war againts the saints and overcome them.
Striking no?

I'll respond to the rest when i can keep my eyes open lol, night.

There is no one antichrist, but many antichrists. Those that would as Jesus said proclaim themselves to the the Anointed one who will claim to deliver the people from their oppression.

As it is Josephus recorded many of these false prophets and false christ in his writtings of the War of the Jews. Chapter 5, 2

A false prophet (19) was the occasion of these people's destruction, who had made a public proclamation in the city that very day, that God commanded them to get upon the temple, and that there they should receive miraculous signs of their deliverance. Now there was then a great number of false prophets suborned by the tyrants to impose on the people, who denounced this to them, that they should wait for deliverance from God; and this was in order to keep them from deserting, and that they might be buoyed up above fear and care by such hopes. Now a man that is in adversity does easily comply with such promises; for when such a seducer makes him believe that he shall be delivered from those miseries which oppress him, then it is that the patient is full of hopes of such his deliverance.

 

[Lehigh3]

ok, so if this was before the cross and we were reading isiah 53.

" and we esteemed him not.." that was written 400 yrs before the lord death on the cross yet too in the past tense.

but yet we know that isiah predicted events that the lord went through.

For the record, Isaiah prophesied about 700 years before Christ.

And when we read the entire chapter of Isaiah 53 of the "Sin-bearing Servant" one can easily decipher, who is being referred to, & in what context. Throughout Isa. 53 is the past tense, the present tense & the future tense regarding the workings of the Father & Son in redemptive history. We all know what & Who Isaiah is prophesying about.

Now in Rev. 20:4-6, we must 1st consider the context of the passage in this prophetic book. John was seeing things which already were, things which he had seen, & things which would happen after Jesus appeared to him among the lampstands. (Rev.1:19)

Since the time statements are clear, the apocalyptic imagery & symbolism must be interpreted to conform to them, & not vice-versa.

When we compare scripture with scripture- we find that Jesus told the apostles that in the regeneration, when He sat at the right hand of glory in heaven- the apostles would sit on thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. Christ sat at the right hand of the Father at his ascension. The apostles began on their evangelistic mission. Theses are those in Rev.20 represented as having "judgment committed to them"
Then we read John saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for Jesus & for the word of God - these are all the martyrs (including those from Rev.6's 5th seal)
The timing is clear when we read that "they had not received the mark of the beast...." We know the beast was the Satan in the 7 Caesars- or the "red dragon" We know that Nero was the instigating power behind the persecution of the saints. We know when about these signs all come together.

Now, the martyrs (all of them) are presently dead of course (beheaded) in John's vision, but they "had not received the mark" is past tense. "They lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years" makes sense now, in the past tense. The "lived" meant when they weren't beheaded- & that is a separate statement from those on thrones judging in a sense, but it was still during the millennium (the long time) that they reigned with Christ. John was presently in "the kingdom and patience of Christ." This was the millennium of the N.T. time.

I hope that helped Jason!

 

[jasoncran]

For the record, Isaiah prophesied about 700 years before Christ.

And when we read the entire chapter of Isaiah 53 of the "Sin-bearing Servant" one can easily decipher, who is being referred to, & in what context. Throughout Isa. 53 is the past tense, the present tense & the future tense regarding the workings of the Father & Son in redemptive history. We all know what & Who Isaiah is prophesying about.

Now in Rev. 20:4-6, we must 1st consider the context of the passage in this prophetic book. John was seeing things which already were, things which he had seen, & things which would happen after Jesus appeared to him among the lampstands. (Rev.1:19)

Since the time statements are clear, the apocalyptic imagery & symbolism must be interpreted to conform to them, & not vice-versa.

When we compare scripture with scripture- we find that Jesus told the apostles that in the regeneration, when He sat at the right hand of glory in heaven- the apostles would sit on thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. Christ sat at the right hand of the Father at his ascension. The apostles began on their evangelistic mission. Theses are those in Rev.20 represented as having "judgment committed to them"
Then we read John saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for Jesus & for the word of God - these are all the martyrs (including those from Rev.6's 5th seal)
The timing is clear when we read that "they had not received the mark of the beast...." We know the beast was the Satan in the 7 Caesars- or the "red dragon" We know that Nero was the instigating power behind the persecution of the saints. We know when about these signs all come together.

Now, the martyrs (all of them) are presently dead of course (beheaded) in John's vision, but they "had not received the mark" is past tense. "They lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years" makes sense now, in the past tense. The "lived" meant when they weren't beheaded- & that is a separate statement from those on thrones judging in a sense, but it was still during the millennium (the long time) that they reigned with Christ. John was presently in "the kingdom and patience of Christ." This was the millennium of the N.T. time.

I hope that helped Jason!

being boiled alive is hardly a peaceful time on the earth. im sure if we saw john there would be marks of attempted death sentences.

he wrote the book of revalation in exile and also was boiled in said isle of patmos per tradition.

after the completetion of the book which by your fellow thinkers was ad 64. so if it was after six years and during the coming of christ or after what then?

 

[Lehigh3]

being boiled alive is hardly a peaceful time on the earth. im sure if we saw john there would be marks of attempted death sentences.

he wrote the book of revalation in exile and also was boiled in said isle of patmos per tradition.

after the completetion of the book which by your fellow thinkers was ad 64. so if it was after six years and during the coming of christ or after what then?

You said it- tradition has John being deep-fried in oil at the same time he was on Patmos, about AD96?

Well, then there are some Syriac versions from ancient times that state "The Revelation which was made by God to John the evangelist in the island of Patmos, into which he was thrown by Nero Caesar." (Moses Stuart, Commentary on the Apocalypse (1845) Vol.1 p.267; Milton S. Terry, Biblical Hermeneutics (1890), pp.136,137.

Anyway, if this happened to John in AD95ish, I really don't see a 90 year old man being able to jump out of a boiling cauldron as easily as a 60 year old in AD64-68!

Nor does Rev.10 make sense of such an old man, when the angel gives John the book to eat & tells him he must prophecy again about many peoples nations, tongues and kings. Seems like it would be a tall order for someone in their 90's!

 

[jasoncran]

well gee moses climbed a mountain to his death at the age of 120.

if God wanted john to live that long he would have. at any age , boiling water kills. do you think they would just stick him in there and not ensure that he wouldnt climb out. he stayed in there

The Christian writers of the second and third centuries testify that the Apostle John lived in Asia Minor in the last decades of the first century and from Ephesus had guided the Churches of that province. In his "Dialogue with Tryphon" Justin Martyr refers to "John, one of the Apostles of Christ" as a witness who had lived "with us", that is, at Ephesus. Irenæus speaks in very many places of the Apostle John and his residence in Asia and expressly declares that he wrote his Gospel at Ephesus and that he had lived there until the reign of Trajan. Eusebius and others place the Apostle's banishment to Patmos in the reign of the Emperor Domitian (81-96).

Previous to this, according to Tertullian's testimony, John had been thrown into a cauldron of boiling oil before the Porta Latina at Rome without suffering injury. After Domitian's death the Apostle returned to Ephesus during the reign of Trajan, and at Ephesus he died about A.D. 100 at a great age. He expressed a willingness to undergo martyrdom - as did the other apostles - and is accordingly called a martyr in "intention." Some stories say that, although he was imprisoned and exiled for his testimony to the Gospel, he was eventually released and died a natural death in Ephesus: "a martyr in will but not in deed." Other stories say that he had his disciples dig a grave in the shape of a cross, in which he lay down and demanded that they bury him - " a martyr, finally, at his own hand."


from here.
http://www.apostle.org/lectures/johnlife.htm

 

[Stormcrow]

{4} Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Revelation 20:4 (NASB)

{9} When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; {10} and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" {11} And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also. Revelation 6:9-11 (NASB)

Revelation 20:4-6 answers the question, "What happened to the souls under the altar and those killed just after they're seen there?"


One more thing: the saints on the thrones ruling with Christ comes after the fall of Jerusalem in chapters 18 and 19.