Revisionist Diction 1

[th1b.taylor]

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th1b.Taylor post:
I see Sandy's point but would interject the necessity to define forgiveness and revenge biblically and not from the Revisionist Diction of the day. In the field of forgiveness, the Word of God, absolutely, requires it and, in fact, God has modelled it for us.

God forgives any sin we ask Him to forgive! There is condition to that promise and that is repentance. God has, even, chosen to forget out forgiven sins and then, as we study the Proverbs, in context, we see that there are evil men and women and though we forgive their transgression, even when they repent not, we are not wise to forget and to give them an open door to do it to us again.

I have repented of a great deal, living the first 45 years as an Atheist and always, I seek after holiness. So, do I sometimes slip and sin the old sins again? Jesus/God teaches us that if we think it we are guilty of it. Paul, after three years of one on one tutelage at the hand of Jesus teaches us that the Old Man is still strapped to our backs. The best example of this is a bit gross, especially to any Combat Veteran but. In the Roman empire, in some states, the punishment for murder was to bind the body to the back of the offender until the rotting carcass killed him. When I fall victim to my Old Self, I immediately repent and pray for forgiveness of that sin and then do my best not ot go the again.

And God's forgiveness is so conditional that almost all of humanity will reside for eternity in Hell and here we have a view of love that most of us find vulgar but, in the end, it is true. We know that God loves His creation, all of it and yet He has given Angels and Man free choice that they might choose to live in Eternity with Him but most choose Hell and He does not interfere.

Then there is revenge: Revenge, today, by the Revisionist, is confused with Justice. Early, in the scriptures, Jesus/God teaches us our first ?objectional? lesson on justice. In the 9th chapter of Genesis, Jesus teaches that if a man murders a man, we are to kill him. The murderer has sinned against man and against God, the dead man is created in the Image of God!

i.e. The U.S. did not extract revenge when Osama bil Laden was exicuted, justice was served, he was guilty of the murder of thousands of Americans, Russians and many others.

We must learn from our forefathers and study our Bible.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I think there is a difference between a pligrim, heavenly New Testament people acting under grace, and the idea of the righteousness of God being imposed by the sword on earth, as seen in the Old Testament.

We are here for the sake of the Gospel, in other words.

(I do like a lot of what Ms Sandy says; it's just a question of emphasis.)

Blessings.

farouk,
What you have done here is to separate the Bible in like manor to the NTCs and NCCs. When I went through my military the basics were stressed and it was those same basics that saved my life, repeatedly, during three tours in Vietnam. When I was 6 I began school and the bare basics were stressed in the first three years and as a result, my continuing education is still building on those same basic, the three Rs.

I am often called on teaching the truth of the matter being the New Testament is the best and the only God ordain, God inspired, Life Application Commentary on the Bible Jesus taught from. But that is the truth and it must always be considered what God revealed of Himself in Mal. 3:6a, He never changes.

Jesus is the God of the Old Testament in the flesh of a human. (John 1:1-3) We are not here for the sake of the Gospels, we are here because God wanted to fellowship with us, best illustrated and given context with Gen. 1-3 chapters, the Enoch and Noah accounts and then with the Gospel accounts of why Jesus came but not the Gospels themselves.

 

[farouk]

farouk,
What you have done here is to separate the Bible in like manor to the NTCs and NCCs. When I went through my military the basics were stressed and it was those same basics that saved my life, repeatedly, during three tours in Vietnam. When I was 6 I began school and the bare basics were stressed in the first three years and as a result, my continuing education is still building on those same basic, the three Rs.

I am often called on teaching the truth of the matter being the New Testament is the best and the only God ordain, God inspired, Life Application Commentary on the Bible Jesus taught from. But that is the truth and it must always be considered what God revealed of Himself in Mal. 3:6a, He never changes.

Jesus is the God of the Old Testament in the flesh of a human. (John 1:1-3) We are not here for the sake of the Gospels, we are here because God wanted to fellowship with us, best illustrated and given context with Gen. 1-3 chapters, the Enoch and Noah accounts and then with the Gospel accounts of why Jesus came but not the Gospels themselves.

I was referring to the Gospel; i.e., the Gospel of the grace of God, for which the Great Commission was given in Matthew 20.

As a dispensationalist, I see a distinction between Israel, an earthly people described in the Old Testament particularly, and the church in the New Testament, gathered out of Judaism and nations, under grace, with the primary mission to spread the Good News, rather than impose some Old Testament vision of political righteousness by the sword.

God does not change, as Malachi says; but after Malachi He revealed Himself further in the New Testament.

(But I realize that not all share such dispensational views; they do, however, reflect my own thinking.)

Blessings.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I was referring to the Gospel; i.e., the Gospel of the grace of God, for which the Great Commission was given in Matthew 20.

As a dispensationalist, I see a distinction between Israel, an earthly people described in the Old Testament particularly, and the church in the New Testament, gathered out of Judaism and nations, under grace, with the primary mission to spread the Good News, rather than impose some Old Testament vision of political righteousness by the sword.

God does not change, as Malachi says; but after Malachi He revealed Himself further in the New Testament.

(But I realize that not all share such dispensational views; they do, however, reflect my own thinking.)

Blessings.

dis·pen·sa·tion
ˌdispənˈsāSHən,-pen-/
noun
noun: dispensation; plural noun: dispensations

1. 1.
   exemption from a rule or usual requirement.
   "although she was too young, she was given special dispensation to play two matches"
   synonyms:exemption, immunity, exception, exoneration, reprieve, remissionMore
   "a dispensation from the Pope"
   • permission to be exempted from the laws or observances of a church.
     "he received papal dispensation to hold a number of benefices"
2. 2.
   a system of order, government, or organization of a nation, community, etc., esp. as existing at a particular time.
   "scholarship is conveyed to a wider audience than under the old dispensation"
   synonyms:system, order, arrangement, organizationMore
   "the new constitutional dispensation"
   • (in Christian theology) a divinely ordained order prevailing at a particular period of history.
     "the Mosaic dispensation"
   • archaic
     an act of divine providence.
     "the laws to which the creator in all his dispensations conforms"
3. 3.
   the action of distributing or supplying something.
   "regulations controlling dispensation of medications"
   synonyms:distribution, supply, supplying, issue, issuing, handing out, doling out, dishing out, sharing out, dividing out;More
   division, allocation, allotment, apportionment
   "the dispensation of supplies"

Origin
View attachment 3775
More
late Middle English: from Latin dispensatio(n-), from the verb dispensare (see dispense).
As seen from the definition any dispensationalist should do as the scriptures teach and to seek after God, through the Savior, by the leadership of the Holy Spirit, by studying the Word God has had recorded for our knowledge because the recorded Word of God debunks the very idea.

I may be wrong, not being of your ilk, but as I understand it, your belief centers on the lack of importance being given to the Mosaic Law. In reality, as we read all of the scriptures, we learn that Jesus never intended that any man should be saved through the Law. He is the Creator (John 1:1-3) and because He witnessed the only man's fall from Grace that ever had the ability to keep the Law, He knew when He drew this Word Picture of Himself that none could be Him, ever.

When we look at those that were taken into Heaven in the Old Testament and those that entered Heaven in MATT. 27:51-53, no indication is given that any of them ever obeyed the Law but, rather, as we study the God ordained and God inspired Life Application Commentary on the Bible He taught from as the man Jesus, we see that they were saved, looking forward to the murder of Jesus, just as we look back to it. I know, most do not call it murder but sacrifice but the truth is wrapped tightly in truth when the govenor washed his hands of the matter.

Since we are engaged, here, in my calling, I'll go a bit further. Paul pointed out the truth of this matter when he explained that the Law is our teacher. The Mosaic Law is so important that through it we see the infallible character of God and from that we know what we are, not to accomplish but, to strive to become, daily. Jesus. rather clearly, told us to emulate Him as closely as we might.

So you see, there is no need, nor has there ever been any need for dispensationalism. No man was ever meant to be saved by the Law misnamed the Mosaic Law, it is more properly the Law of God and only God could ever have the option of obeying the Law after Adam had been given the opportunity of becoming perfect but, instead, chose to follow his wife into sin.

May God bless this conversation.

 

[Sandy Zalecki]

Sandy,
It all comes down to the answer of a single question, are we smarter than Jesus? This facet is avoided with the NCC and NTC's idea that God changed with the birth of Jesus as a man and that, just, is not true. If we can just remember Mal. 3:6 and John 1:1-3 we will avoid the New Covenant and the New Testament Christian's error in our service to God.

Then, to demonstrate the reasonableness of doing it God's way, here in Texas, when I last served in the Prison Ministries, it cost better than $35,000 a year to contain a single prisoner in General Lock Up. The cost, some years ago, now, was over $55,000 a year for the containment of one prisoner on Death Row for a year. Multiply that by 10s of thousands a year in every state and the Federa Lock Ups and it is multiplied by hundreds of thousands every year.

My mother was a Professional Criminal and did 13 turns here in Texas, one in Mississippi and another in Indiana and nobody hit her with the Habitual that was on the book then, here in Texas but I told her and I tell you, she deserved that charge and at the time we still did the Electric Chair and she would have been convicted hands down and strapped into that Chair. But God has made it clear that His people are to be a Holy People and we do not persue that when we choose to disobey Him.

Hope can see that I have lived a large portion of my life with this as an issue to me.

First, I want to say how much I feel for you that your mother was the way she was. Mothers are very important people in our lives and when they aren't the nurturing people we expect them to be it can be devastating for a child. I am sure you must feel truly blessed to have the Lord in your life to make up for the failings of mankind.

I want to be as open as possible with people. So here goes. I am an anti-gun, anti-war, anti-capital punishment, vegetarian. I believe we have the right to eat meat, but I don't right now because of the way animals are treated in these corporate farms and because the meat is so full of junk it isn't good for us anyway. I also believe that all creatures God created have the right to live their lives with respect and we don't respect them anymore. I think that people have the right to hunt and put food on the table for their families if they so desire. But there is so much food at the grocery store why bother. I also respect peoples 2nd amendment right to own a gun. I expect others to respect my right not to have one.

As far as capital punishment goes, where there is life there is hope. You say that it costs $55,000 a year to house someone on death row. What price do you put on a soul? Some of these people may turn to Christ, some of them may never. Do we know who will turn to Christ? My friend is living proof that God does not want everyone that kills to be put to death. He is one of the best witnesses for Christ that I have ever seen. How could he be a witness if he were dead?

 

[th1b.taylor]

First, I want to say how much I feel for you that your mother was the way she was. Mothers are very important people in our lives and when they aren't the nurturing people we expect them to be it can be devastating for a child. I am sure you must feel truly blessed to have the Lord in your life to make up for the failings of mankind.

I want to be as open as possible with people. So here goes. I am an anti-gun, anti-war, anti-capital punishment, vegetarian. I believe we have the right to eat meat, but I don't right now because of the way animals are treated in these corporate farms and because the meat is so full of junk it isn't good for us anyway. I also believe that all creatures God created have the right to live their lives with respect and we don't respect them anymore. I think that people have the right to hunt and put food on the table for their families if they so desire. But there is so much food at the grocery store why bother. I also respect peoples 2nd amendment right to own a gun. I expect others to respect my right not to have one.

As far as capital punishment goes, where there is life there is hope. You say that it costs $55,000 a year to house someone on death row. What price do you put on a soul? Some of these people may turn to Christ, some of them may never. Do we know who will turn to Christ? My friend is living proof that God does not want everyone that kills to be put to death. He is one of the best witnesses for Christ that I have ever seen. How could he be a witness if he were dead?

All of what you have said, I fought, as did my dad and my uncles, for you to have the right to hold these opinions but you have avoided the central issue. All the rest of my post was without import and served no purpose, other than for coloring, leaving the issue that must be answered, "Are we smarter than Jesus?"

 

[jasoncran]

I have no problems with:
execution in two forms , after a trial and in rare case summerary execution the later is the case when a thug or man attempts to kill another and is killed in the process.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I have no problems with:
execution in two forms , after a trial and in rare case summerary execution the later is the case when a thug or man attempts to kill another and is killed in the process.

And you hold the position I see from my study as being what God has outlined for our behavior and in large part, I see that as having extended into my military service, to include the three tours of combat. I also believe that short of another Combat Vet. that the average person that has not devoted enough time to Bible study will have difficulty seeing where that comes from but therein lies the problem with Christianity today, folks do not like to study.

 

[jasoncran]

yes but should the nation execute men and women for these too:
fornication and adultery( seldom done outside of the army) and the former wasn't and isn't even a crime in the ucmj.
sodomy?
rape? we have but its only for minors in some states that are the victims

 

[th1b.taylor]

yes but should the nation execute men and women for these too:
fornication and adultery( seldom done outside of the army) and the former wasn't and isn't even a crime in the ucmj.
sodomy?
rape? we have but its only for minors in some states that are the victims

Only if they seek the face of God. At the moment, people like myself are deeply dispized because I believe every word of the Bible has purpose, even the allegories and parables. Personally, before I was saved I believed that rape should have been punished, not even punishable, by death. Long before I got on stage, when girls just thought of me as the bean pole that could run, I did ok with the girls.

I have never seen rape as a crime dealing with sex, it is a crime of slavery in itś worst form.

 

[jasoncran]

im not against that but lets be real. we pick and choose which part of the torah we want to enforce as a nation even when the puritians had it. do we then also execute witches? what about idols worship, breaking of the shabat? failing to do the feasts, Passover. all that is in the torah.

 

[th1b.taylor]

yes but should the nation execute men and women for these too:
fornication and adultery( seldom done outside of the army) and the former wasn't and isn't even a crime in the ucmj.
sodomy?
rape? we have but its only for minors in some states that are the victims

Only if they seek the face of God.

 

[jasoncran]

so Christians should do Passover? the shabat? these all meant death if failed to be done and also males must be circumcised.

 

[Deborah13]

Only if they seek the face of God.

Who's "they"?

 

[Deborah13]

yes but should the nation execute men and women for these too:
fornication and adultery( seldom done outside of the army) and the former wasn't and isn't even a crime in the ucmj.
sodomy?
rape? we have but its only for minors in some states that are the victims

I think in Torah, there has to be at least one if not two eye witnesses for a capital crime. In this day and age, DNA would probably be considered a strong witness.

 

[Deborah13]

All of what you have said, I fought, as did my dad and my uncles, for you to have the right to hold these opinions but you have avoided the central issue. All the rest of my post was without import and served no purpose, other than for coloring, leaving the issue that must be answered, "Are we smarter than Jesus?"

So my question was what are you asking when you ask this question?
I mean we are on a Christian board and Christian will say, "of coarse not".

 

[th1b.taylor]

so Christians should do Passover? the shabat? these all meant death if failed to be done and also males must be circumcised.

You seem to be busy trying to push me into an argument and if you wish to discuss this you need to stop that. Discussion results in steel sharpening steel and arguments result, most often in producing two or more fools. You are, step by step attempting to draw me off subject just as the VC tried to lead my men away from the target and if you do it one more time, this conversation is terminated.

You already know the answer because you have already read the verses to know to ask the questions and you are smart enough, I pray, to understand that the answer does not ever change no matter what point of reference.

 

[Sparkey]

All of what you have said, I fought, as did my dad and my uncles, for you to have the right to hold these opinions but you have avoided the central issue. All the rest of my post was without import and served no purpose, other than for coloring, leaving the issue that must be answered, "Are we smarter than Jesus?"

I'm confused because the title of the thread is now:
Revisionist Diction 1

Has the central issue changed? Was the original post titled, "Are we smarter than Jesus?" The reason that I ask may be seen because the question(s) or rather, the premise, is a truism and there can be no reasonable reply or counter-argument offered. There is no chance of debate or reasonable discussion here if that is the case.

~Sparrow

 

[th1b.taylor]

The moderators moved these posts here from, I think two strings, and yes, you have the subject right, "Are we Smarter that Jesus. The reason for the question is based on the New Testament and New Covenant, recent, divisions of Christianity have denied that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament and have rewritten God's laws. My interest in the topic came from Sandy's assertion that, as Christians, we should not obey God by executing murders, rapists and so on.

 

[Sparkey]

So it seems that your position is that if we do not fulfill the entire law as given to the followers of Moses we are in essence stating that we are smarter than Jesus?

Ooops. Wait. I see my error. Pardon me for not rightly stating your position. I've re-read your words and would change my assessment. I don't want to put words into your mouth for you.

Thanks for the explanation. I can better see why this appears controversial to many. It isn't a light discussion and requires more thought. Many stumble when they try to reconcile the nature of our agreements with God. Maybe what you're saying is that we don't have to try because Jesus did that for us.