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rich man and lazarus

shad

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In Revelations 17,18 we read of a certain very wicked woman called "Babylon the Great." It is generally believed in Protestant churches that this is the great Apostasy. The true church is also compared to a woman, a pure chaste virgin, but Babylon the Great is a vile degenerate woman. Just as surely as the woman represents the great apostasy, so surely does the cup represent the Bible, containing the water of life, divine truth. Nothing is said against the cup, there was nothing wrong with it, but the abominable things put into it were without divine authority. She introduced the abominable idea that God instituted man, the Pope to the head of God's church, that men should worship the Virgin Mary, and that they should confess their sins to the priests. There is not the slightest scriptural support to any of them. Martin Luther perceived that this was the case, and started the work of cleaning the golden cup of the errors attached to it during the Dark Ages. He stopped before it was cleaned, so others took up the work to carry it on, and the cleaning has continued to the present time. We call these our brethren, although we are not Lutherans or Baptists, for they have the characteristics which we would expect to find in the true child of God. We also have this desire to see the golden cup cleansed, but it has not yet been cleansed.

One of the most abominable things put into the golden cup has not yet been removed, namely that our Heavenly Father has promised to torment nearly all of earth's billions through all eternity. This was put in to frighten the heathen into the church. No one could be so full of sin as to deserve such a punishment. This idea more than any other has made many infidels. Nine out of every ten infidels have been made such directly or indirectly by this dreadful doctrine. Any one who believes this doctrine is near to infidelity. This is not a part of the golden cup, but was put into it. None who really believe in Christ as the sacrifice for sins can believe this doctrine. If the penalty for sin were eternal torment then Christ would have had to suffer it in order to pay the penalty. There is no eternal life for the wicked (Psa. 145:20), so they cannot [PE54] suffer eternal torment. All who have eternal life will be in harmony with God (1 Cor. 15:28; Rom. 6:23). The Bible presentation of God is everywhere that He is love. He would not allow the eternal torment of any of His creatures. Moloch, a heathen idol, has great arms which were heated and children put into them as secrecies, and God declares in (Jer. 32:35) that such a thing as that never came into His mind. If any were eternally tormented, all would be, for the knowledge of what the evil were suffering would be torment to the righteous. God's indignation and anger will cease with the destruction of the wicked (Isa. 10:25), for all the wicked are to be destroyed, and none will any more cause Him to be angry. (Rev. 21:4, Pain will have accomplished its mission, and shall be no more.

It is very easy to say that Hell is the place of eternal torment, but it is not so easy to prove it. A man who dies goes to hell, the grave, the tomb. Our savior when he died went to hell (Acts 2:27), but God raised Him out of hell the third day. None are put alive into hell. All the incorrigible will be returned into hell. While it is God's purpose to bring all out of hell, yet the willfully wicked will go back to the second hell, the second death. There is a resemblance between the first and second deaths, hells, but there is a difference too, because there will be a resurrection from the first, but never from the second. There is a likeness to fire and brimstone, because these are so destructive, no form of life can withstand its destructiveness. Those who die in the second death will die as the beasts, who perish in corruption. We believe in hell, but not in eternal torment. Many Jews rejected Jesus because they could not believe that He was right and their Scribes and Pharisees were wrong. They rejected the Apostles also. It was just the same with Martin Luther, the people could not believe that the Catholic priests were wrong. We believe in a hell not because great men have believed it, but because the Bible teaches it.

Those who believe in eternal torture have only eight passages in the Bible which seem to teach it. Of these eight every one is highly figurative, not one of them is a straight statement. Two are from Revelations, a book they do not pretend to understand. Rev.14:10,11; 20:10.) The Adventists find that there is no eternal torment taught in the Bible, so they understand more of this book than those who believe that doctrine. Of the other six: Two are in the parables of our Lord (Matt. 25:31-46; Luke 16:19-31), two more are His statements (Mark 9:42-48,49), one in Isaiah (Isa. 66:24), and one in Jude 7. (see Isa. 30:33.) Paul said he was not ashamed to declare the whole counsel of God, and in all that he has written he has not mentioned eternal torment, while he has touched on every other doctrine of theology. Surely he would not have [PE55] failed to speak of it if it were true. He did say: "Our God is a consuming fire" (Heb. 12:2, but not a preserving fire.

Luke 16:19-31: This is a parable, though it is not called a parable, for it is not a literal statement. In a parable the thing said is not to be understood as the thing meant. The rich man represents one class, and the poor man another class. The rich man is the class to whom Jesus was speaking, the Jewish nation. It is customary to compare nations to men; we call the United States, 'Uncle Sam,' and England is called 'John Bull,' Turkey the 'Sick man of the East.' So the Jewish nation is compared to a rich man because she had enjoyed much more of God's favor and blessing than had any other nation; to them were given the promises of God, and the just laws which placed their social condition far in advance of that of any nation of that day, and also the patriarchs and prophets (Rom. 3:1,2; Acts 3:25,26). Where was there another nation to which was shown so much of God's goodness? The rich man was clothed with purple and fine linen. Purple represents royalty, the royal family from which the King was taken; Israel was a royal nation. (Exod. 19:5,6.) Fine linen represents their righteousness; they were not actually righteous, but typically, reckonedly so, because of their sacrifices for sin. (Leviticus 16:29-31.) Where was there a nation which favored so sumptuously as this on the messages of God sent to them? (Deut. 4:6-8,32-34.) From this view the whole parable is easily explained. In Matt. 12:36 we read that every idle word that men shall speak they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. If this parable supports the doctrine of eternal torment than over half the words in it are idle words, but our Lord spoke in no idle words. This explanation is the only one which makes use of every word. The dog was an unclean animal to the Jew (Leviticus 12:27), and the epithet was often applied to the Gentiles by the Jews. The beggar would represent those Gentiles who afterwards accepted Christ. The wall would represent the Law covenant (Eph. 2:14); the gate, circumcision; those outside the gate, who did not circumcise, the Gentiles; Beggar, those Gentiles who afterwards accepted Christ; dogs, those Gentiles who never accepted Christ. (See Mark 7:25-28.) The beggar is described as being full of sores; these are not literal sores, but the fears, doubts which filled the minds of those who searched earnestly for truth, anxieties concerning the future life, which puzzled their minds and worried them, mental sores. The dogs licked his sores; the heathen philosophers came and tried to comfort these worried ones, and showed them sympathy by giving their theories of the future life; but this could not cure their troubles.

The rich man died. Has the Jewish nation died? It surely has. Where is the Jewish nation today? It does not exist. For the pas 1900 years [PE56] nearly, since A.D. 70, the Jews have been scattered, buried among all nations, tho victims of the worst persecutions that men could devise, despised, hated, trodden down by all men, most badly treated by those whose faith should have taught them mercy, by nominal Christians; surely that nation has been dead, and its people in torment.

Abraham is here a type of Jehovah, as in the figure, wherein he offered up Isaac, typifying Jehovah, offering his only Son, Jesus, for our sins. Since the death of the Jewish nation God has been afar off from them, and His favor withdrawn from them.

Lazarus also died and was taken to Abraham's bosom: The Jews were rejected, and the beggar class of Gentiles also died to their old condition. Previously they had been without God and without hope in the world, they had no share in the promises, and were aliens from God. (Eph. 2:12). But these old conditions passed away, a change came. It was not an individual death, but death to old conditions. To be received into one's bosom means to be adopted into one's family. (See Num. 11:12.) So these Gentiles were adopted into God's family in place of the rejected Jews. The rich man implored that Lazarus might come to soothe his agony. 'Angels' are messengers, sometimes heavenly, sometimes earthly. Peter was the angel who was sent to convert Cornelius; the apostles were the angels who carried the Gentiles into God's family. Thus the Jews have seen the Gentiles exalted and themselves debased. They have implored the Christians for hundreds of years for relief from their sufferings, but none came, their heaven was like iron. (Leviticus 26:19). There was a great gulf, a religious and social gulf that none could pass. It is not so wide in the United States as in Russia, nor so wide now as in the Dark Ages, but none can cross it, not even those Jews who become Christians can cross the social gulf. The Jews seemed to realize that if any help came it must come through Christians. The five brethren were Jews also, for Christians have more than Moses and the Prophets, the New Testament. The Jewish nation consisted of twelve tribes, the two tribes of Judah and Benjamin as the Kingdom of Judah, and the other ten tribes of Israel.

These were taken captives to Assyria or to Babylon, and later Cyrus gave all the Jews in his dominions liberty to return to Jerusalem.

Some of all the tribes returned and most of Judah and Benjamin. If the rich man represents the two tribes of Judah and Benjamin composing most of the returned nation), then five men would represent the ten tribes. So the Jews prayed that their brethren might escape such torment as was theirs..This was not a warning of eternal torment for they would have found nothing about that in the scriptures. If it were true, he should have sent them to certain works of theology which treat the subject. The Jews [PE57] were to be persecuted until the end of the Times of the Gentiles. The Gentiles are now comforted as they exercise faith in Christ. Instead of accepting Jesus' messages the Jews rejected Him and them; and it does not follow that they would be equally blessed in the new age because they were in the old. If the Israelites would not believe Moses and the Prophets, neither would they believe one from those dead to the world and to sin. This parable illustrates Israel's woes.

The destruction of the wicked will be complete. Eternal torment would be vindictive on God's part, but He has no such punishment for any of His creatures. The punishment is everlasting death, with no resurrection. All the righteous will live forever. All places in the Universe will be happy places. (Psa. 37:10.) But would it not be dangerous to preach this, would it not make men worse, if this fear were removed? We have yet to hear of a single case of a person's being made worse by knowing that God was more loving than he had believed. Indeed the most of our criminals are from that class which most apparently believes that doctrine.
 
My op explains about hell fire misunderstanding. There is no never ending torturing from loving God. No one deserves being tortured forever. We will perish if we don't accept Jesus forgiveness and repent our own selfish ways.

"for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son whoeverbelieves in Him shell not perish but have eternal life."

We will perish if we don't accept Jesus, not live forever in hell fire.
 
Satan has always had his agents to explain away what God said. He started that in the garden.
 
duval said:
Satan has always had his agents to explain away what God said. He started that in the garden.

But he is a liar.
 
2 Timothy 4
1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: 2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.


Hear the Word of God and believe.

Matthew 25
41"Then He will also say to those on the left hand, "Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.'
44"Then they also will answer Him, saying, "Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?' 45Then He will answer them, saying, "Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

It is clear Everlasting Punishment in an everlasting fire. Do you want to believe the Word of God or the fables?

Luke 16
19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’
27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’â€Â

How clear is the Word of God. Very clear. Believe Jesus. He is your Savior and you are being saved from something indeed.


Revelation 14
9Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

The Revelation Reveals it more Clearly. in plain simple and clear Words forever and ever Means Just what it says. Clear is the Word of God.


Revelation 21
6And He said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

The Lake of Fire is Real Indeed and men shall have their part in it.


Revelation 19
20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

The Beast and the False Prophet are MEN...

1000 years later satan will be cast into the lake of fire note who is there already.
Revelation 20:10
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The beast and the false prophet have not been extinguished/eliminated, they are still in the lake of fire 1000 years after they where cast alive into it.


Revelation 20
15And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Anyone Not found written in the Book of Life will be cast into the Lake of fire.

Revelation 17
8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.


Let those with itchy ears follow those who preach sweet sounding doctrines derived from the thinking of men. Let those who believe the Word of God with submission take it as their true guild. Let the Word of God defend those who Believe Jesus from deception in these latter times.


All Praise The Ancient of Days
 
You believe what you want to believe.

Your interpretation is out of context. God is not God of viciousness. God is love; it is written all through the entire Scripture in both Old and New testament.

What is the purpose of torturing anyone never endingly???
 
shad said:
You believe what you want to believe.

Your interpretation is out of context. God is not God of viciousness. God is love; it is written all through the entire Scripture in both Old and New testament.

What is the purpose of torturing anyone never endingly???

1 Jn.1:5- "This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all."
God will not give all He has forever and ever to those who've been proven unfaithful to Him. This is a testing ground to prove us. There is no other place for the unrighteous...the ones who refuse to walk in God's ways, whether of unbelief or sin, those who refuse to conform to God's authority will have to go to their place. Don't use human philosophy to interpret Scripture.You have to use Scripture to interpret Scripture.

Ex.16:4- Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.

Ex.19:5- Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Hos.4:6- 6My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
 
XTruth said:
shad said:
You believe what you want to believe.

Your interpretation is out of context. God is not God of viciousness. God is love; it is written all through the entire Scripture in both Old and New testament.

What is the purpose of torturing anyone never endingly???

1 Jn.1:5- "This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all."
God will not give all He has forever and ever to those who've been proven unfaithful to Him. This is a testing ground to prove us. There is no other place for the unrighteous...the ones who refuse to walk in God's ways, whether of unbelief or sin, those who refuse to conform to God's authority will have to go to their place. Don't use human philosophy to interpret Scripture.You have to use Scripture to interpret Scripture.

Ex.16:4- Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.

Ex.19:5- Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Hos.4:6- 6My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

Out of context. You don't know God.
 
shad said:
XTruth said:
shad said:
You believe what you want to believe.

Your interpretation is out of context. God is not God of viciousness. God is love; it is written all through the entire Scripture in both Old and New testament.

What is the purpose of torturing anyone never endingly???

1 Jn.1:5- "This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all."
God will not give all He has forever and ever to those who've been proven unfaithful to Him. This is a testing ground to prove us. There is no other place for the unrighteous...the ones who refuse to walk in God's ways, whether of unbelief or sin, those who refuse to conform to God's authority will have to go to their place. Don't use human philosophy to interpret Scripture.You have to use Scripture to interpret Scripture.

Ex.16:4- Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.

Ex.19:5- Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Hos.4:6- 6My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

Out of context. You don't know God.
I'm not so sure I am...can you give me an example or explanation? 1 Jn.2:3- "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments."
 
XTruth said:
I'm not so sure I am...can you give me an example or explanation? 1 Jn.2:3- "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments."

X,

Like I already said, God is love, what makes you think He will permit never ending torture to anyone? He is in controll of everyting encluding how He exececute His judgement. He does not become helpless all of a sudden about hell fire. It is just out of context. Torturing disobedients never endingly is just out of His charactor. Please be logical.

Please re-read my OP.

Thank you,

God bless you.
 
shad said:
XTruth said:
I'm not so sure I am...can you give me an example or explanation? 1 Jn.2:3- "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments."

X,

Like I already said, God is love, what makes you think He will permit never ending torture to anyone? He is in controll of everyting encluding how He exececute His judgement. He does not become helpless all of a sudden about hell fire. It is just out of context. Torturing disobedients never endingly is just out of His charactor. Please be logical.

Please re-read my OP.

Thank you,

God bless you.
I haven't read a single OP of yours that's been correct yet...not even a little. Why do you believe what you want? Believing the mercy, love, etc. of God without believing His warnings to the disobedient is not logical.
 
XTruth said:
I haven't read a single OP of yours that's been correct yet...not even a little.

You seem to interepret most of the Scriptures leterally. Then of course you will not see it as i do. I readthe Bible within context.Your resoning is all out of context. Hipe you open and honest about your God of Love.

Why do you believe what you want? Believing the mercy, love, etc. of God without believing His warnings to the disobedient is not logical.

His warnings are for all people who don't understand His love and don't accept His love. Christianity is all about God and Jesus' love for us and for each other. Think about it, friend. God is Just, Fair, Marcyful and all those good stuff; We should interprete the Bible accodingly. I believe all His warnings, that's why I reason the Bible the way I do.
 
SHAD what happens then if we do not heed the warnings of the God of love??
 
duval said:
SHAD what happens then if we do not heed the warnings of the God of love??

For instance? Woud you elaborate your question, please?
 
God warns, I die, I have not heeded God's warnings. What then?
 
duval said:
God warns, I die, I have not heeded God's warnings. What then?

I still don't get your point or this question. We are warned about it in the Bible. I will perish if I don't accept Jesus' forgiveness and as my Savior.
 
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