As all the dead in Hades rise on Judgment Day, why is Luke 16:19-31 cited as proof of eternal torment?

[JLB]

Fascinated by the beast?

Not at all.

Just the whole counsel of God.


But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Revelation 21:8

 

[JLB]

Fascinated by the beast?

He is irrelevant to postmortem Opportunity Exclusively in Christ Jesus my LORD.

Our God is the God of salvation; And to YHWH the Lord belong escapes from death. (Ps. 68:20)

Nothing in this scripture about postmortem opportunity.

Only those who obey Jesus Christ will receive salvation.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9

 

[Alfred Persson]

Nothing in this scripture about postmortem opportunity.

Only those who obey Jesus Christ will receive salvation.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9

I don't see obedience to Jesus in a refusal to discuss scripture.

Aren’t Abraham and Lazarus “on the Lord’s side” completely supporting God’s retributive justice? (Exod. 32:26-27) How is it they want to cross the gulf and comfort the Rich Man? (Lk. 15:26) As that would be rebellion against God’s judgment, the rich man’s torment must have another purpose than “retributive justice”. It must have as its goal the possible redemption of the Rich Man.

22 “So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 “And being in torments (931 βάσανος basanos) in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, `Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao) in this flame (5395 φλόξ phlox).’
25 “But Abraham said, `Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted (3870 παρακαλέω parakaleo) and you are tormented (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao). (Lk. 16:22-25 NKJ)

If the “torment” (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao) is the classic idea of hell-fire, the Rich Man would ask for a lot more than a little water to cool his tongue. Odunao here refers to mental anguish (Luke 2:48; 16:25; Acts 20:38). Its antithesis is parakaleo ‘to be consoled for sorrow’ like Lazarus (Lk. 16:25).

Christ chose the word “torment” (931 βάσανος basanos) to describe the Torment in Hades:

Meaning: 1) a touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal 2) the rack or instrument of torture by which one is forced to divulge the truth.-Strong’s Concordance

This “torment” is the kind that brings truth to the surface, resulting in “anguish” and “sorrow” (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao cp. Acts 20:38) for sin. The imagery of purging from sin is common in the Old Testament (Zech. 13:9; Ps. 51:7; 66:10; Isa. 1:25; 4:4; 6:7; 48:10; Ezek. 24:13; Dan. 11:35):

2 “But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s fire And like launderer’s soap.
3 He will sit as a refiner and a purifier of silver; He will purify the sons of Levi, And purge them as gold and silver, That they may offer to the LORD An offering in righteousness. (Mal. 3:2-3 NKJ)

In Luke 16:24 the “flame” (5395 φλόξ phlox) causes the “agony” or “anguish” (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao). The Rich Man is being purged (Mal. 3:3; Job 23:10; Zech. 13:9 cp. 1 Pet. 1:7) by the “flame of God’s inspection”: “His eyes like a flame” (Rev. 1:14; 2:18; 19:12). The “flame” is the “visible aspect of a fire that springs upward and is usually orange”(Logos Bible Sense Lexicon). God is revealed in the “flame” (Ex. 3:2; Judges 13:20; Isa. 66:15 LXX; Acts 7:30; 2 Thess. 1:8).

The “torments of Hades” are designed to bring the true person to the surface, liberate their free will from all bondage to sin and delusion. After suffering for their sins “judged according to men in the flesh”, if they choose to believe the gospel preached to them in Hades they will “live according to God in the Spirit” apart from any torment, eagerly waiting for the Second Coming of Christ when they will rise with the dead in Christ.

25 Truly, truly, I tell you, the hour comes, and now is, when the dead will hear the Son of God's voice; and those who hear will live.
26 For as the Father has life in himself, even so he gave to the Son also to have life in himself.
27 He also gave him authority to execute judgment, because he is a son of man.
28 Do not marvel at this, for the hour comes, in which all that are in the tombs will hear his voice,
29 and will come out; those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment. (Jn. 5:25-29 RPTE)

Jesus said those "in the tombs" (=hades like the rich man) will hear his voice, and those who believe (vs. 25 hear=believe) will rise to the resurrection of life."

I believe Him.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Walking through the valley of the shadow of death is truly interesting.

Conception through death.

For me it takes rod and staff.

Macular degeneration is a strange rod.

Left eye one tiny dot at -
18 inches. Right brain.

Right eye a thumb size shadow at 18 inches. Left brain-

In these discussions I often think of the eyes of my understanding.

Am I missing a small detail completely, or am I missing a whole fuzzy area of understanding? The evil one wants to destroy,but God wants to have all things work together for good.


Mississippi redneck
eddif

Hang in there bro. When Christ said a sign would be "wars and rumors of wars", He meant invovling Israel. All Bible prophecy is centered on Israel. So the time is near, a lot nearer than when we first believed:

16 Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day.
17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory,
18 while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal.
NKJ 2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, (2 Cor. 4:16-5:2 NKJ)

 

[eddif]

Hang in there bro. When Christ said a sign would be "wars and rumors of wars", He meant invovling Israel. All Bible prophecy is centered on Israel. So the time is near, a lot nearer than when we first believed:

16 Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day.
17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory,
18 while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal.
NKJ 2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, (2 Cor. 4:16-5:2 NKJ)

The light afflictions of our life and death will end at the resurrection. Then the permanent judgement comes.

Missisnsippi redneck
eddif