As all the dead in Hades rise on Judgment Day, why is Luke 16:19-31 cited as proof of eternal torment?

[Alfred Persson]

1 Corinthians 14:21 kjv
21. In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

After 400 years of silence. Jesus seems to have spoken two ways.
In Greek
In parables that hid the truth.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

34 All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them,
35 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying: "I will open My mouth in parables; I will utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world." (Matt. 13:34-35 NKJ)

 

[eddif]

read

34 All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them,
35 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying: "I will open My mouth in parables; I will utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world." (Matt. 13:34-35 NKJ)

The interesting thing. That is what the scripture says.

The astounding thing tradition usually wins.
What is tradition?:

(Jesus taught in parables because they were a simple people and the disciples understood the parables).

The problem arises when the disciples ask: (why do you speak in parables?).

( that hearing they hear not, and seeing they see not……).

His thread is the same. In private the modern disciples are told the meaning).


the seed is The Word of God.
The ground is men’s hearts.

Lazarus is a type of the disciples being comforted.

The rich m man is a type of those who miss the real reality of the kingdom. Today we tell what the meaning of those secret things kept secret. We do not critize those who do not see, because we were without knowledge before revelation opens all eyes.

The two women are two covenants.


Mississippi redneck
eddi

 

[Alfred Persson]

The interesting thing. That is what the scripture says.

The astounding thing tradition usually wins.
What is tradition?:

(Jesus taught in parables because they were a simple people and the disciples understood the parables).

The problem arises when the disciples ask: (why do you speak in parables?).

( that hearing they hear not, and seeing they see not……).

His thread is the same. In private the modern disciples are told the meaning).


the seed is The Word of God.
The ground is men’s hearts.

Lazarus is a type of the disciples being comforted.

The rich m man is a type of those who miss the real reality of the kingdom. Today we tell what the meaning of those secret things kept secret. We do not critize those who do not see, because we were without knowledge before revelation opens all eyes.

The two women are two covenants.


Mississippi redneck
eddi

31 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: "The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field,
32 "which indeed is the least of all the seeds; but when it is grown it is greater than the herbs and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and nest in its branches."
33 Another parable He spoke to them: "The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened."
34 All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them,
35 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying: "I will open My mouth in parables; I will utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world." (Matt. 13:31-35 NKJ)

5 Then the angel who talked with me came out and said to me, "Lift your eyes now, and see what this is that goes forth."
6 So I asked, "What is it?" And he said, "It is a basket that is going forth." He also said, "This is their resemblance throughout the earth:
7 "Here is a lead disc lifted up, and this is a woman sitting inside the basket";
8 then he said, "This is Wickedness!" And he thrust her down into the basket, and threw the lead cover over its mouth.
9 Then I raised my eyes and looked, and there were two women, coming with the wind in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork, and they lifted up the basket between earth and heaven.
10 So I said to the angel who talked with me, "Where are they carrying the basket?"
11 And he said to me, "To build a house for it in the land of Shinar; when it is ready, the basket will be set there on its base." (Zech. 5:5-11 NKJ)

1 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me, "Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters,
2 "with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication."
3 So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication.
5 And on her forehead a name was written: MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. (Rev. 17:1-5 NKJ)

Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath. (Rev. 16:19 NKJ)

31 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: "The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field,
32 "which indeed is the least of all the seeds; but when it is grown it is greater than the herbs and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and nest in its branches." (Matt. 13:31-32 NKJ)

1 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illuminated with his glory.
2 And he cried mightily with a loud voice, saying, "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird! (Rev. 18:1-2 NKJ)

What a coincidence Christendom is divided into three measures: Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant. AND scipture predicts there will be a massive falling away so that the Man of Sin Son of Perdition sits in the Temple of God (the church) proclaiming himself to be God:

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. (2 Thess. 2:3-4 NKJ)

 

[eddif]

31 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: "The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field,
32 "which indeed is the least of all the seeds; but when it is grown it is greater than the herbs and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and nest in its branches."
33 Another parable He spoke to them: "The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened."
34 All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them,
35 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying: "I will open My mouth in parables; I will utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world." (Matt. 13:31-35 NKJ)

5 Then the angel who talked with me came out and said to me, "Lift your eyes now, and see what this is that goes forth."
6 So I asked, "What is it?" And he said, "It is a basket that is going forth." He also said, "This is their resemblance throughout the earth:
7 "Here is a lead disc lifted up, and this is a woman sitting inside the basket";
8 then he said, "This is Wickedness!" And he thrust her down into the basket, and threw the lead cover over its mouth.
9 Then I raised my eyes and looked, and there were two women, coming with the wind in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork, and they lifted up the basket between earth and heaven.
10 So I said to the angel who talked with me, "Where are they carrying the basket?"
11 And he said to me, "To build a house for it in the land of Shinar; when it is ready, the basket will be set there on its base." (Zech. 5:5-11 NKJ)

1 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me, "Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters,
2 "with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication."
3 So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication.
5 And on her forehead a name was written: MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. (Rev. 17:1-5 NKJ)

Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath. (Rev. 16:19 NKJ)

31 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: "The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field,
32 "which indeed is the least of all the seeds; but when it is grown it is greater than the herbs and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and nest in its branches." (Matt. 13:31-32 NKJ)

1 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illuminated with his glory.
2 And he cried mightily with a loud voice, saying, "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird! (Rev. 18:1-2 NKJ)

What a coincidence Christendom is divided into three measures: Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant. AND scipture predicts there will be a massive falling away so that the Man of Sin Son of Perdition sits in the Temple of God (the church) proclaiming himself to be God:

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. (2 Thess. 2:3-4 NKJ)

Yes there are sayings that are false.

There are sayings that we look to God for understanding
And
The evil one tries to deceive also.

Have you looked into PaRDeS ?

The rich man offered a saying that was rejected.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[eddif]

Why do some cited the 1-2 minute long conversation between Abraham and the Rich Man, as proof of "eternal torment" when Scripture says Hades will release all the dead in it, and some rise to "the resurrection of life". That's why the book of life is open on Judgment Day.

Hades is tossed into the lake of fire, after everyone leaves it. So how does the rich man prove "eternal torment?"

Alfred Persson
I do appreciate your open statements, and questions.

I really think the rich man supplies the answer. Why?:
He is thirsty and concerned for his relatives.

The rich man wants the relatives to avoid his condition.

Since this passage is about avoiding torment it is used.

The tares are bound first. There is an order to the graves being opened. Yes all people ride, but when and to what final destination. Yes there is a judgement from the books.

I see through a glass darkly.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[JLB]

In Christ's prophecy/parable the Pharisees would not believe the risen Lazarus (John 12:9-11) and therefore, contrary to their belief Abraham would prevent them from descending into Hades, a child of Abraham is depicted as paying the penalty for his sin. The conversation he has with Abraham lasts only a minute. Nothing is said to be eternal. We know all in Hades come out on Judgment Day. So how is it believers cite this as proof for eternal torment? Rather, it fits the 1st century apostolic concept of hades as a place where souls can repent and live according to God (1 Pet. 4:6):

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:11-15 NKJ)


24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
27 "and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:24-29 NKJ)


22 “So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 “And being in torments (931 βάσανος basanos) in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, `Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao) in this flame (5395 φλόξ phlox).’
25 “But Abraham said, `Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted (3870 παρακαλέω parakaleo) and you are tormented (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao). (Lk. 16:22-25 NKJ)

The Rich Man does not act like someone who is irreedemably wicked and is suffering Eternal Torment. So how can Bible Believers cite this as proof of eternal torment?

1)His demeanor is not that of a wicked eternally condemned man, he does not blaspheme either Abraham, Lazarus or God even when he doesn’t get what he asked for.
2)Abraham calls him “son…child” displaying affection which implies the rich man is not irredeemably wicked.
3)Both Abraham and many redeemed with him WANT to cross over into Hades to lessen the torment of the rich man. That would be rebellion against God’s Judgment and therefore implies the rich man ultimately would be saved.
4)The symbolic language implies a “torment” with a goal beyond retributive justice:

If the “torment” (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao) is the classic idea of hell-fire, the Rich Man would ask for a lot more than a little water to cool his tongue. Odunao here refers to mental anguish (Luke 2:48; 16:25; Acts 20:38). Its antithesis is parakaleo ‘to be consoled for sorrow’ like Lazarus (Lk. 16:25).

Christ chose the word “torment” (931 βάσανος basanos) to describe the Torment in Hades:

Meaning: 1) a touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal 2) the rack or instrument of torture by which one is forced to divulge the truth.-Strong’s Concordance

This “torment” is the kind that brings truth to the surface, resulting in “anguish” and “sorrow” (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao cp. Acts 20:38) for sin. The imagery of purging from sin is common in the Old Testament (Zech. 13:9; Ps. 51:7; 66:10; Isa. 1:25; 4:4; 6:7; 48:10; Ezek. 24:13; Dan. 11:35):

2 “But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s fire And like launderer’s soap.
3 He will sit as a refiner and a purifier of silver; He will purify the sons of Levi, And purge them as gold and silver, That they may offer to the LORD An offering in righteousness. (Mal. 3:2-3 NKJ)

In Luke 16:24 the “flame” (5395 φλόξ phlox) causes the “agony” or “anguish” (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao). The Rich Man is being purged (Mal. 3:3; Job 23:10; Zech. 13:9 cp. 1 Pet. 1:7) by the “flame of God’s inspection”: “His eyes like a flame” (Rev. 1:14; 2:18; 19:12). The “flame” is the “visible aspect of a fire that springs upward and is usually orange”(Logos Bible Sense Lexicon). God is revealed in the “flame” (Ex. 3:2; Judges 13:20; Isa. 66:15 LXX; Acts 7:30; 2 Thess. 1:8).

From all this one could reasonably infer the “torments of Hades” are designed to bring the true person to the surface, liberate their free will from all bondage to sin and delusion. After suffering for their sins “judged according to men in the flesh”, if they choose to believe the gospel preached to them in Hades they will “live according to God in the Spirit” apart from any torment, eagerly waiting for the Second Coming of Christ when they will rise with the dead in Christ.

23 It was necessary therefore that the copies of the things in the heavens should be cleansed with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ hasn't entered into holy places made with hands, which are representations of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
25 nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest enters into the holy place year by year with blood not his own,
26 or else he must have suffered often since the foundation of the world. But now once at the end of the ages, he has been revealed to put away sin by the

And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. Luke 16:23-25


Here are some points Jesus taught us about these two men.

• And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments

Jesus said the rich man was in hell.

• send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Jesus said the rich man was tormented.

Jesus said the rich man was in a flame of fire.


Do you believe what Jesus taught?





JLB

 

[Alfred Persson]

And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. Luke 16:23-25


Here are some points Jesus taught us about these two men.

• And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments

Jesus said the rich man was in hell.

• send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Jesus said the rich man was tormented.

Jesus said the rich man was in a flame of fire.


Do you believe what Jesus taught?





JLB

Yes, I 100% believe everything my LORD Jesus Christ taught.

But does “retributive justice” exhaust the symbolism of this parable, or does it imply there is hope the unsaved dead ?

Aren’t Abraham and Lazarus “on the Lord’s side” completely supporting God’s retributive justice? (Exod. 32:26-27) How is it they want to cross the gulf and comfort the Rich Man? (Lk. 15:26) As that would be rebellion against God’s judgment, the rich man’s torment must have another purpose than “retributive justice”. It must have as its goal the possible redemption of the Rich Man.

22 “So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 “And being in torments (931 βάσανος basanos) in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, `Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao) in this flame (5395 φλόξ phlox).’
25 “But Abraham said, `Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted (3870 παρακαλέω parakaleo) and you are tormented (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao). (Lk. 16:22-25 NKJ)

If the “torment” (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao) is the classic idea of hell-fire, the Rich Man would ask for a lot more than a little water to cool his tongue. Odunao here refers to mental anguish (Luke 2:48; 16:25; Acts 20:38). Its antithesis is parakaleo ‘to be consoled for sorrow’ like Lazarus (Lk. 16:25).

Christ chose the word “torment” (931 βάσανος basanos) to describe the Torment in Hades:

Meaning: 1) a touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal 2) the rack or instrument of torture by which one is forced to divulge the truth.-Strong’s Concordance

This “torment” is the kind that brings truth to the surface, resulting in “anguish” and “sorrow” (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao cp. Acts 20:38) for sin. The imagery of purging from sin is common in the Old Testament (Zech. 13:9; Ps. 51:7; 66:10; Isa. 1:25; 4:4; 6:7; 48:10; Ezek. 24:13; Dan. 11:35):

2 “But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s fire And like launderer’s soap.
3 He will sit as a refiner and a purifier of silver; He will purify the sons of Levi, And purge them as gold and silver, That they may offer to the LORD An offering in righteousness. (Mal. 3:2-3 NKJ)

In Luke 16:24 the “flame” (5395 φλόξ phlox) causes the “agony” or “anguish” (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao). The Rich Man is being purged (Mal. 3:3; Job 23:10; Zech. 13:9 cp. 1 Pet. 1:7) by the “flame of God’s inspection”: “His eyes like a flame” (Rev. 1:14; 2:18; 19:12). The “flame” is the “visible aspect of a fire that springs upward and is usually orange”(Logos Bible Sense Lexicon). God is revealed in the “flame” (Ex. 3:2; Judges 13:20; Isa. 66:15 LXX; Acts 7:30; 2 Thess. 1:8).

The “torments of Hades” are designed to bring the true person to the surface, liberate their free will from all bondage to sin and delusion. After suffering for their sins “judged according to men in the flesh”, if they choose to believe the gospel preached to them in Hades they will “live according to God in the Spirit” apart from any torment, eagerly waiting for the Second Coming of Christ when they will rise with the dead in Christ.

25 Truly, truly, I tell you, the hour comes, and now is, when the dead will hear the Son of God's voice; and those who hear will live.
26 For as the Father has life in himself, even so he gave to the Son also to have life in himself.
27 He also gave him authority to execute judgment, because he is a son of man.
28 Do not marvel at this, for the hour comes, in which all that are in the tombs will hear his voice,
29 and will come out; those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment. (Jn. 5:25-29 RPTE)

Jesus said those "in the tombs" (=hades like the rich man) will hear his voice, and those who believe (vs. 25 hear=believe) will rise to the resurrection of life."

I believe Him. Do you?

 

[eddif]

Yes, I 100% believe everything my LORD Jesus Christ taught.

But does “retributive justice” exhaust the symbolism of this parable, or does it imply there is hope the unsaved dead ?

Aren’t Abraham and Lazarus “on the Lord’s side” completely supporting God’s retributive justice? (Exod. 32:26-27) How is it they want to cross the gulf and comfort the Rich Man? (Lk. 15:26) As that would be rebellion against God’s judgment, the rich man’s torment must have another purpose than “retributive justice”. It must have as its goal the possible redemption of the Rich Man.

22 “So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 “And being in torments (931 βάσανος basanos) in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, `Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao) in this flame (5395 φλόξ phlox).’
25 “But Abraham said, `Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted (3870 παρακαλέω parakaleo) and you are tormented (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao). (Lk. 16:22-25 NKJ)

If the “torment” (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao) is the classic idea of hell-fire, the Rich Man would ask for a lot more than a little water to cool his tongue. Odunao here refers to mental anguish (Luke 2:48; 16:25; Acts 20:38). Its antithesis is parakaleo ‘to be consoled for sorrow’ like Lazarus (Lk. 16:25).

Christ chose the word “torment” (931 βάσανος basanos) to describe the Torment in Hades:

Meaning: 1) a touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal 2) the rack or instrument of torture by which one is forced to divulge the truth.-Strong’s Concordance

This “torment” is the kind that brings truth to the surface, resulting in “anguish” and “sorrow” (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao cp. Acts 20:38) for sin. The imagery of purging from sin is common in the Old Testament (Zech. 13:9; Ps. 51:7; 66:10; Isa. 1:25; 4:4; 6:7; 48:10; Ezek. 24:13; Dan. 11:35):

2 “But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s fire And like launderer’s soap.
3 He will sit as a refiner and a purifier of silver; He will purify the sons of Levi, And purge them as gold and silver, That they may offer to the LORD An offering in righteousness. (Mal. 3:2-3 NKJ)

In Luke 16:24 the “flame” (5395 φλόξ phlox) causes the “agony” or “anguish” (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao). The Rich Man is being purged (Mal. 3:3; Job 23:10; Zech. 13:9 cp. 1 Pet. 1:7) by the “flame of God’s inspection”: “His eyes like a flame” (Rev. 1:14; 2:18; 19:12). The “flame” is the “visible aspect of a fire that springs upward and is usually orange”(Logos Bible Sense Lexicon). God is revealed in the “flame” (Ex. 3:2; Judges 13:20; Isa. 66:15 LXX; Acts 7:30; 2 Thess. 1:8).

The “torments of Hades” are designed to bring the true person to the surface, liberate their free will from all bondage to sin and delusion. After suffering for their sins “judged according to men in the flesh”, if they choose to believe the gospel preached to them in Hades they will “live according to God in the Spirit” apart from any torment, eagerly waiting for the Second Coming of Christ when they will rise with the dead in Christ.

25 Truly, truly, I tell you, the hour comes, and now is, when the dead will hear the Son of God's voice; and those who hear will live.
26 For as the Father has life in himself, even so he gave to the Son also to have life in himself.
27 He also gave him authority to execute judgment, because he is a son of man.
28 Do not marvel at this, for the hour comes, in which all that are in the tombs will hear his voice,
29 and will come out; those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment. (Jn. 5:25-29 RPTE)

Jesus said those "in the tombs" (=hades like the rich man) will hear his voice, and those who believe (vs. 25 hear=believe) will rise to the resurrection of life."

I believe Him. Do you?

Somehow:
Hearing they hear not
And
Seeing they see not.

These are words Jesus said also.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[JLB]

Yes, I 100% believe everything my LORD Jesus Christ taught.

But does “retributive justice” exhaust the symbolism of this parable, or does it imply there is hope the unsaved dead ?

Aren’t Abraham and Lazarus “on the Lord’s side” completely supporting God’s retributive justice? (Exod. 32:26-27) How is it they want to cross the gulf and comfort the Rich Man? (Lk. 15:26) As that would be rebellion against God’s judgment, the rich man’s torment must have another purpose than “retributive justice”. It must have as its goal the possible redemption of the Rich Man.

22 “So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 “And being in torments (931 βάσανος basanos) in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, `Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao) in this flame (5395 φλόξ phlox).’
25 “But Abraham said, `Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted (3870 παρακαλέω parakaleo) and you are tormented (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao). (Lk. 16:22-25 NKJ)

If the “torment” (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao) is the classic idea of hell-fire, the Rich Man would ask for a lot more than a little water to cool his tongue. Odunao here refers to mental anguish (Luke 2:48; 16:25; Acts 20:38). Its antithesis is parakaleo ‘to be consoled for sorrow’ like Lazarus (Lk. 16:25).

Christ chose the word “torment” (931 βάσανος basanos) to describe the Torment in Hades:

Meaning: 1) a touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal 2) the rack or instrument of torture by which one is forced to divulge the truth.-Strong’s Concordance

This “torment” is the kind that brings truth to the surface, resulting in “anguish” and “sorrow” (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao cp. Acts 20:38) for sin. The imagery of purging from sin is common in the Old Testament (Zech. 13:9; Ps. 51:7; 66:10; Isa. 1:25; 4:4; 6:7; 48:10; Ezek. 24:13; Dan. 11:35):

2 “But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s fire And like launderer’s soap.
3 He will sit as a refiner and a purifier of silver; He will purify the sons of Levi, And purge them as gold and silver, That they may offer to the LORD An offering in righteousness. (Mal. 3:2-3 NKJ)

In Luke 16:24 the “flame” (5395 φλόξ phlox) causes the “agony” or “anguish” (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao). The Rich Man is being purged (Mal. 3:3; Job 23:10; Zech. 13:9 cp. 1 Pet. 1:7) by the “flame of God’s inspection”: “His eyes like a flame” (Rev. 1:14; 2:18; 19:12). The “flame” is the “visible aspect of a fire that springs upward and is usually orange”(Logos Bible Sense Lexicon). God is revealed in the “flame” (Ex. 3:2; Judges 13:20; Isa. 66:15 LXX; Acts 7:30; 2 Thess. 1:8).

The “torments of Hades” are designed to bring the true person to the surface, liberate their free will from all bondage to sin and delusion. After suffering for their sins “judged according to men in the flesh”, if they choose to believe the gospel preached to them in Hades they will “live according to God in the Spirit” apart from any torment, eagerly waiting for the Second Coming of Christ when they will rise with the dead in Christ.

25 Truly, truly, I tell you, the hour comes, and now is, when the dead will hear the Son of God's voice; and those who hear will live.
26 For as the Father has life in himself, even so he gave to the Son also to have life in himself.
27 He also gave him authority to execute judgment, because he is a son of man.
28 Do not marvel at this, for the hour comes, in which all that are in the tombs will hear his voice,
29 and will come out; those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment. (Jn. 5:25-29 RPTE)

Jesus said those "in the tombs" (=hades like the rich man) will hear his voice, and those who believe (vs. 25 hear=believe) will rise to the resurrection of life."

I believe Him. Do you?

Here is what Jesus plainly said —

Words of Christ in red:

• And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments

Jesus said the rich man was in hell.

• send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Jesus said the rich man was tormented.

Jesus said the rich man was in a flame of fire.



I believe what Jesus said.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Here is what Jesus plainly said —

Words of Christ in red:

• And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments

Jesus said the rich man was in hell.

• send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Jesus said the rich man was tormented.

Jesus said the rich man was in a flame of fire.



I believe what Jesus said.

Yes, I 100% believe everything my LORD Jesus Christ taught.

But does “retributive justice” exhaust the symbolism of this parable, or does it imply there is hope the unsaved dead ?

Aren’t Abraham and Lazarus “on the Lord’s side” completely supporting God’s retributive justice? (Exod. 32:26-27) How is it they want to cross the gulf and comfort the Rich Man? (Lk. 15:26) As that would be rebellion against God’s judgment, the rich man’s torment must have another purpose than “retributive justice”. It must have as its goal the possible redemption of the Rich Man.

22 “So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 “And being in torments (931 βάσανος basanos) in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, `Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao) in this flame (5395 φλόξ phlox).’
25 “But Abraham said, `Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted (3870 παρακαλέω parakaleo) and you are tormented (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao). (Lk. 16:22-25 NKJ)

If the “torment” (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao) is the classic idea of hell-fire, the Rich Man would ask for a lot more than a little water to cool his tongue. Odunao here refers to mental anguish (Luke 2:48; 16:25; Acts 20:38). Its antithesis is parakaleo ‘to be consoled for sorrow’ like Lazarus (Lk. 16:25).

Christ chose the word “torment” (931 βάσανος basanos) to describe the Torment in Hades:

Meaning: 1) a touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal 2) the rack or instrument of torture by which one is forced to divulge the truth.-Strong’s Concordance

This “torment” is the kind that brings truth to the surface, resulting in “anguish” and “sorrow” (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao cp. Acts 20:38) for sin. The imagery of purging from sin is common in the Old Testament (Zech. 13:9; Ps. 51:7; 66:10; Isa. 1:25; 4:4; 6:7; 48:10; Ezek. 24:13; Dan. 11:35):

2 “But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s fire And like launderer’s soap.
3 He will sit as a refiner and a purifier of silver; He will purify the sons of Levi, And purge them as gold and silver, That they may offer to the LORD An offering in righteousness. (Mal. 3:2-3 NKJ)

In Luke 16:24 the “flame” (5395 φλόξ phlox) causes the “agony” or “anguish” (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao). The Rich Man is being purged (Mal. 3:3; Job 23:10; Zech. 13:9 cp. 1 Pet. 1:7) by the “flame of God’s inspection”: “His eyes like a flame” (Rev. 1:14; 2:18; 19:12). The “flame” is the “visible aspect of a fire that springs upward and is usually orange”(Logos Bible Sense Lexicon). God is revealed in the “flame” (Ex. 3:2; Judges 13:20; Isa. 66:15 LXX; Acts 7:30; 2 Thess. 1:8).

The “torments of Hades” are designed to bring the true person to the surface, liberate their free will from all bondage to sin and delusion. After suffering for their sins “judged according to men in the flesh”, if they choose to believe the gospel preached to them in Hades they will “live according to God in the Spirit” apart from any torment, eagerly waiting for the Second Coming of Christ when they will rise with the dead in Christ.

25 Truly, truly, I tell you, the hour comes, and now is, when the dead will hear the Son of God's voice; and those who hear will live.
26 For as the Father has life in himself, even so he gave to the Son also to have life in himself.
27 He also gave him authority to execute judgment, because he is a son of man.
28 Do not marvel at this, for the hour comes, in which all that are in the tombs will hear his voice,
29 and will come out; those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment. (Jn. 5:25-29 RPTE)

Jesus said those "in the tombs" (=hades like the rich man) will hear his voice, and those who believe (vs. 25 hear=believe) will rise to the resurrection of life."

I believe Him. Do you?

 

[eddif]

Walking through the valley of the shadow of death is truly interesting.

Conception through death.

For me it takes rod and staff.

Macular degeneration is a strange rod.

Left eye one tiny dot at -
18 inches. Right brain.

Right eye a thumb size shadow at 18 inches. Left brain-

In these discussions I often think of the eyes of my understanding.

Am I missing a small detail completely, or am I missing a whole fuzzy area of understanding? The evil one wants to destroy,but God wants to have all things work together for good.


Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[JLB]

Yes, I 100% believe everything my LORD Jesus Christ taught.

But does “retributive justice” exhaust the symbolism of this parable, or does it imply there is hope the unsaved dead ?

Here is what Jesus plainly said —

Words of Christ in red:

• And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments

Jesus said the rich man was in hell.

• send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Jesus said the rich man was tormented.

Jesus said the rich man was in a flame of fire.


I don’t see where Jesus mentioned “retributive justice” or unsaved dead.

Those are your words you added to what Jesus plainly said.

You have decided to make up your own doctrine like so many people in the church today.



The rich man was in hell, and he was tormented in a flame of fire.

• And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments

• send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Here is what Jesus plainly said —

Words of Christ in red:

• And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments

Jesus said the rich man was in hell.

• send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Jesus said the rich man was tormented.

Jesus said the rich man was in a flame of fire.


I don’t see where Jesus mentioned “retributive justice” or unsaved dead.

Those are your words you added to what Jesus plainly said.

You have decided to make up your own doctrine like so many people in the church today.



The rich man was in hell, and he was tormented in a flame of fire.

• And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments

• send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Yes, I 100% believe everything my LORD Jesus Christ taught.

But does “retributive justice” exhaust the symbolism of this parable, or does it imply there is hope the unsaved dead ?

Aren’t Abraham and Lazarus “on the Lord’s side” completely supporting God’s retributive justice? (Exod. 32:26-27) How is it they want to cross the gulf and comfort the Rich Man? (Lk. 15:26) As that would be rebellion against God’s judgment, the rich man’s torment must have another purpose than “retributive justice”. It must have as its goal the possible redemption of the Rich Man.

22 “So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 “And being in torments (931 βάσανος basanos) in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, `Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao) in this flame (5395 φλόξ phlox).’
25 “But Abraham said, `Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted (3870 παρακαλέω parakaleo) and you are tormented (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao). (Lk. 16:22-25 NKJ)

If the “torment” (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao) is the classic idea of hell-fire, the Rich Man would ask for a lot more than a little water to cool his tongue. Odunao here refers to mental anguish (Luke 2:48; 16:25; Acts 20:38). Its antithesis is parakaleo ‘to be consoled for sorrow’ like Lazarus (Lk. 16:25).

Christ chose the word “torment” (931 βάσανος basanos) to describe the Torment in Hades:

Meaning: 1) a touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal 2) the rack or instrument of torture by which one is forced to divulge the truth.-Strong’s Concordance

This “torment” is the kind that brings truth to the surface, resulting in “anguish” and “sorrow” (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao cp. Acts 20:38) for sin. The imagery of purging from sin is common in the Old Testament (Zech. 13:9; Ps. 51:7; 66:10; Isa. 1:25; 4:4; 6:7; 48:10; Ezek. 24:13; Dan. 11:35):

2 “But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s fire And like launderer’s soap.
3 He will sit as a refiner and a purifier of silver; He will purify the sons of Levi, And purge them as gold and silver, That they may offer to the LORD An offering in righteousness. (Mal. 3:2-3 NKJ)

In Luke 16:24 the “flame” (5395 φλόξ phlox) causes the “agony” or “anguish” (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao). The Rich Man is being purged (Mal. 3:3; Job 23:10; Zech. 13:9 cp. 1 Pet. 1:7) by the “flame of God’s inspection”: “His eyes like a flame” (Rev. 1:14; 2:18; 19:12). The “flame” is the “visible aspect of a fire that springs upward and is usually orange”(Logos Bible Sense Lexicon). God is revealed in the “flame” (Ex. 3:2; Judges 13:20; Isa. 66:15 LXX; Acts 7:30; 2 Thess. 1:8).

The “torments of Hades” are designed to bring the true person to the surface, liberate their free will from all bondage to sin and delusion. After suffering for their sins “judged according to men in the flesh”, if they choose to believe the gospel preached to them in Hades they will “live according to God in the Spirit” apart from any torment, eagerly waiting for the Second Coming of Christ when they will rise with the dead in Christ.

25 Truly, truly, I tell you, the hour comes, and now is, when the dead will hear the Son of God's voice; and those who hear will live.
26 For as the Father has life in himself, even so he gave to the Son also to have life in himself.
27 He also gave him authority to execute judgment, because he is a son of man.
28 Do not marvel at this, for the hour comes, in which all that are in the tombs will hear his voice,
29 and will come out; those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment. (Jn. 5:25-29 RPTE)

Jesus said those "in the tombs" (=hades like the rich man) will hear his voice, and those who believe (vs. 25 hear=believe) will rise to the resurrection of life."

I believe Him. Do you?

The Bible alone has the whole truth, is 100% right
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2 Tim. 3:16-17

 

[JLB]

But does “retributive justice” exhaust the symbolism of this parable, or does it imply there is hope the unsaved dead ?

Where did Jesus mention “retributive justice” ?



Below in red are the actual words Jesus said. I won't discuss man made theories about man made terms.

• And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments

Jesus said the rich man was in hell.

• send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Jesus said the rich man was tormented.
Jesus said the rich man was in a flame of fire.


Do you believe what Jesus said about the rich man being tormented in the flame of fire?

 

[Alfred Persson]

Where did Jesus mention “retributive justice” ?



Below in red are the actual words Jesus said. I won't discuss man made theories about man made terms.

• And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments

Jesus said the rich man was in hell.

• send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Jesus said the rich man was tormented.
Jesus said the rich man was in a flame of fire.


Do you believe what Jesus said about the rich man being tormented in the flame of fire?

Retributive Justice​

First published Wed Jun 18, 2014; substantive revision Fri Jul 31, 2020
The concept of retributive justice has been used in a variety of ways, but it is best understood as that form of justice committed to the following three principles:

1. that those who commit certain kinds of wrongful acts, paradigmatically serious crimes, morally deserve to suffer a proportionate punishment;
2. that it is intrinsically morally good—good without reference to any other goods that might arise—if some legitimate punisher gives them the punishment they deserve; and
3. that it is morally impermissible intentionally to punish the innocent or to inflict disproportionately large punishments on wrongdoers.

The idea of retributive justice has played a dominant role in theorizing about punishment over the past few decades, but many features of it—especially the notions of desert and proportionality, the normative status of suffering, and the ultimate justification for retribution—remain contested and problematic.

Retributive Justice (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

YOU insist on retributive Justice, not the symbols Christ used in the text:

Aren’t Abraham and Lazarus “on the Lord’s side” completely supporting God’s retributive justice? (Exod. 32:26-27) How is it they want to cross the gulf and comfort the Rich Man? (Lk. 15:26) As that would be rebellion against God’s judgment, the rich man’s torment must have another purpose than “retributive justice”. It must have as its goal the possible redemption of the Rich Man.

22 “So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 “And being in torments (931 βάσανος basanos) in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, `Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao) in this flame (5395 φλόξ phlox).’
25 “But Abraham said, `Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted (3870 παρακαλέω parakaleo) and you are tormented (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao). (Lk. 16:22-25 NKJ)

If the “torment” (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao) is the classic idea of hell-fire, the Rich Man would ask for a lot more than a little water to cool his tongue. Odunao here refers to mental anguish (Luke 2:48; 16:25; Acts 20:38). Its antithesis is parakaleo ‘to be consoled for sorrow’ like Lazarus (Lk. 16:25).

Christ chose the word “torment” (931 βάσανος basanos) to describe the Torment in Hades:

Meaning: 1) a touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal 2) the rack or instrument of torture by which one is forced to divulge the truth.-Strong’s Concordance

This “torment” is the kind that brings truth to the surface, resulting in “anguish” and “sorrow” (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao cp. Acts 20:38) for sin. The imagery of purging from sin is common in the Old Testament (Zech. 13:9; Ps. 51:7; 66:10; Isa. 1:25; 4:4; 6:7; 48:10; Ezek. 24:13; Dan. 11:35):

2 “But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s fire And like launderer’s soap.
3 He will sit as a refiner and a purifier of silver; He will purify the sons of Levi, And purge them as gold and silver, That they may offer to the LORD An offering in righteousness. (Mal. 3:2-3 NKJ)

In Luke 16:24 the “flame” (5395 φλόξ phlox) causes the “agony” or “anguish” (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao). The Rich Man is being purged (Mal. 3:3; Job 23:10; Zech. 13:9 cp. 1 Pet. 1:7) by the “flame of God’s inspection”: “His eyes like a flame” (Rev. 1:14; 2:18; 19:12). The “flame” is the “visible aspect of a fire that springs upward and is usually orange”(Logos Bible Sense Lexicon). God is revealed in the “flame” (Ex. 3:2; Judges 13:20; Isa. 66:15 LXX; Acts 7:30; 2 Thess. 1:8).

The “torments of Hades” are designed to bring the true person to the surface, liberate their free will from all bondage to sin and delusion. After suffering for their sins “judged according to men in the flesh”, if they choose to believe the gospel preached to them in Hades they will “live according to God in the Spirit” apart from any torment, eagerly waiting for the Second Coming of Christ when they will rise with the dead in Christ.

25 Truly, truly, I tell you, the hour comes, and now is, when the dead will hear the Son of God's voice; and those who hear will live.
26 For as the Father has life in himself, even so he gave to the Son also to have life in himself.
27 He also gave him authority to execute judgment, because he is a son of man.
28 Do not marvel at this, for the hour comes, in which all that are in the tombs will hear his voice,
29 and will come out; those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment. (Jn. 5:25-29 RPTE)

Jesus said those "in the tombs" (=hades like the rich man) will hear his voice, and those who believe (vs. 25 hear=believe) will rise to the resurrection of life."

I believe Him. Do you?

The Bible alone has the whole truth, is 100% right
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2 Tim. 3:16-17

 

[JLB]

Retributive Justice

Again, Let's discuss what Jesus actually said.

Followers of Jesus Christ are those who follow His doctrine, His words.


Here is my question to you -

Do you believe what Jesus said about the rich man being tormented in the flame of fire?

• And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments

Jesus said the rich man was in hell.

• send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Jesus said the rich man was tormented.
Jesus said the rich man was in a flame of fire.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Again, Let's discuss what Jesus actually said.

Followers of Jesus Christ are those who follow His doctrine, His words.


Here is my question to you -

Do you believe what Jesus said about the rich man being tormented in the flame of fire?

• And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments

Jesus said the rich man was in hell.

• send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Jesus said the rich man was tormented.
Jesus said the rich man was in a flame of fire.

It is written:
Our God is the God of salvation; And to Yahweh the Lord belong escapes from death. (Ps. 68:20)

Salvation is Exclusive to Christ God the Son: “Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me” (Jn. 14:6 NKJ). “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12 NKJ).

It does not require temporal or geographical luck, everyone from Adam and Eve hears the gospel of Christ preached when their appointed deaths occur. Then is the “Judgment/trial” if Christ’s “Timeless sacrifice” “to bear the sins of many” includes them. To finite creatures living in spacetime this “is impossible, but not with God who dwells in eternity (Isa. 57:15); “for with God all things are possible” (Mk. 10:27 NKJ).

A Survey of Scriptures where Postmortem Opportunity for Salvation may be taught:

Dt. 32:39 [#A]; 1Sam. 2:6 [#B]; 2Sam. 22:5-7 [#C]; Ps. 16:10-11 [#D]; Ps. 30:1-4 [#E]; Ps. 40:1-3 [#F]; Ps. 49:12-15 [#G]; Ps. 56:13 [#H]; Ps. 68:18-20 [#I]; Ps. 69:13-18 [#J]; Ps. 71:19-23 [#K]; Ps. 86:13 [#L]; Ps. 102:18-22 [#M]; Ps. 116:1-9 [#N]; Hos. 13:14 [#O]; Jon. 2:1-10 [#P]; Zec. 9:9-11 [#Q]; Mt. 12:30-32[#R]; John 5:28-29[#S]; Rm. 11:25-36[#T]; 1 Pt. 3:18-22[#U]; 1 Pt. 4:6[#V]; 1 Cor. 5:5[#W]; Eph. 4:8-10[#I]; Heb. 9:27-28[#X]; Rev. 20:11-15[#Y];Luke 16:19-31[#Z]; John 3:16-18[#ZA]

 

[JLB]

You are horribly wrong. It is written:
Our God is the God of salvation; And to Yahweh the Lord belong escapes from death. (Ps. 68:20)

I see you don’t believe these words from Jesus Christ.

• And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments

Jesus said the rich man was in hell.

• send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Jesus said the rich man was tormented.
Jesus said the rich man was in a flame of fire.


Lazarus escaped but the rich man did not.

 

[JLB]

A Survey of Scriptures where Postmortem Opportunity for Salvation may be taught:

Dt. 32:39 [#A]; 1Sam. 2:6 [#B]; 2Sam. 22:5-7 [#C]; Ps. 16:10-11 [#D]; Ps. 30:1-4 [#E]; Ps. 40:1-3 [#F]; Ps. 49:12-15 [#G]; Ps. 56:13 [#H]; Ps. 68:18-20 [#I]; Ps. 69:13-18 [#J]; Ps. 71:19-23 [#K]; Ps. 86:13 [#L]; Ps. 102:18-22 [#M]; Ps. 116:1-9 [#N]; Hos. 13:14 [#O]; Jon. 2:1-10 [#P]; Zec. 9:9-11 [#Q]; Mt. 12:30-32[#R]; John 5:28-29[#S]; Rm. 11:25-36[#T]; 1 Pt. 3:18-22[#U]; 1 Pt. 4:6[#V]; 1 Cor. 5:5[#W]; Eph. 4:8-10[#I]; Heb. 9:27-28[#X]; Rev. 20:11-15[#Y];Luke 16:19-31[#Z]; John 3:16-18[#ZA]

Nothing in these scriptures about “Postmortem Opportunity”.

More man made words that are not found in scripture.


Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” Revelation 14:9-11

• And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name

 

[Alfred Persson]

Nothing in these scriptures about “Postmortem Opportunity”.

More man made words that are not found in scripture.


Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” Revelation 14:9-11

• And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name

Fascinated by the beast?

He is irrelevant to postmortem Opportunity Exclusively in Christ Jesus my LORD.

Our God is the God of salvation; And to YHWH the Lord belong escapes from death. (Ps. 68:20)