francisdesales said:
Solo said:
I know that you agree with me that it is very important to rightly divide the word of God when interpreting the scripture, and I know that you will also agree that interpretation apart from that which the Holy Spirit interprets for us is lacking; therefore let me give you what this portion of scripture speaks of.
I am getting the distinct feeling that what you believe regarding the interpretation of Scriptures is what the "Holy Spirit" has told you personally. That is treading on dangerous ground - it is entirely too easy to claim one's own personal opinion is from the Spirit of God. When interpreting Scriptures, thus, it is more in tune with God when we interpret it in light of the Church throughout time, since the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth - not the individual. But let's see what you have here...
Let me give you some scripture that that supports what I have submitted as truth to you, and if you have any support from the scripture that supports your position that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth, I would like to see that.
Jesus said that the individual that does the truth comes to the light, not through the Church's deeds be made manifest, but that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. John 3:21
Jesus also tells us that the Spirit of Truth will come and abide with believers forever. This Spirit of Truth is the Comforter that Jesus prayed to the Father for us, and this Spirit dwells within each and every believer, but he doesn't dwell within those of the world.
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. John 14:15-17
Who did Jesus say will guide us into
ALL truth? The Spirit of truth. Jesus says that the Spirit of truth will show believers
ALL things.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. John 16:13-15
Jesus prayed to the Father that believers would be santified through God's truth, and that God's word is truth. Jesus prays that others would believe on Him through the word of believers.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. John 17:17-21
Believers have the mind of Christ, for they have received the Spirit of God, not the spirit of the world; and this Spirit is freely given to us by God. We are able to speak of the spiritual things of God, not from the wisdom of man, but of that which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual things. The natural man cannot accept these spiritual things because to him they are foolishness, nor can the natural man know the things of God because they are spiritually discerned. Who can instruct better than the Holy Spirit of the spiritual things of the Lord?
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:12-16
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 1 John 2:27
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 3:16
francisdesales said:
Solo said:
Jesus goes on to explain that when a stronger one comes and overcomes one, he takes from him all of the armour which the one trusted in, and his spoils are divided. He continues to teach those that if they are not with Jesus, then they are against Him; and those that do not gather with him, scatter. Jesus speaks then that when an unclean spirit departs from a person, it wanders around in the dry places and decides to go back from where he was cast out. When the unclean spirit returns he sees that the place that he had been cast out had been "swept and garnished", or cleaned and put in order, arranged, made ready, prepared. So this unclean spirit takes seven other spirits more wicked than himself and enters in. The condition of this individual is worse than when he just had the one unclean spirit.
Yes, thank you. Now, if Jesus is addressing unbelievers - why exactly has a demon been cast out and later, the original one returns with more demons? What EXACTLY IS this status that is worse than the last? If Jesus is speaking strictly of unbelievers, what status has changed to allow him to become better - then worse with the return of more demons? No, I disagree with your exegesis. Christ is speaking of one who has had demons exorcised - one who has been SAVED - HEALED - from the power of sin. If there is no demon present, then the man is not tempted internally to sin. In every case in the bible that I can recall, every person who has had a demon exorcised was considered saved and either followed Christ, or preached the Gospel where they remained. Is there ANY person who has had a demon cast out who remains an unbeleiver???
You are asking this to be the one exception to the rule merely because it says that a demon returned, which goes beyond your total concept of what is possible, despite Scriptures telling us otherwise to persevere.
Jesus teaches that those who come to him and believe will be saved. Until an individual believes on Jesus Christ, one cannot be saved. When a devil is cast out of an individual, that individual is free to believe, but until that individual believes on Jesus Christ, he is susceptable to being possessed once again.
Notice in Luke 14-16 there are some watching Jesus cast out the devil that are unbelievers.
Jesus speaks of the Holy Spirit being given to those who ask God, and Jesus speaks of the strong man guarding his home, and if the strong man is overcome by one stronger than himself, his belongings are spoiled, and his armour is untrustworthy. I know of no spirit who is stronger than the Holy Spirit, therefore the believer who has the Holy Spirit dwelling within them can not be overtaken by a spirit stronger.
I do not anticipate that you will believe my words, however, I pray that you will listen to the Word of God.
francisdesales said:
Solo said:
Believers are all sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. If the Holy Spirit can not keep our salvation then who can?
WE can! That is why men are told over and over to persevere and avoid sin. By turning our backs on Christ, we are rejecting His love. We are told to make our salvation more sure by Peter because he knows that one can lose their salvation, returning to the pitiful life of the past:
"For if, flying from the pollutions of the world, through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they be again entangled in them and overcome: their latter state is become unto them worse than the former. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of justice, than after they have known it, to turn back from that holy commandment which was delivered to them. For, that of the true proverb has happened to them: The dog is returned to his vomit: and, The sow that was washed, to her wallowing in the mire." 2 Peter 2:20-22
This is practically the same thing Jesus said in Luke 11
If you can keep your own salvation, then why do you need to worry about purgatory, and why are you not assured that you will be in heaven in the last day? Did you confess all of your sins in the last year? Did you confess your sins in the last month? Did you confess your sins in the last week? Did you confess your sins of today? Did you confess your sins in the last hour? Minute? Where does the word of God speak of which sins need confessed, and which sins do not need confessed?
As far as the scripture that you give us from 2 Peter 2:20-22 as practically the same thing Jesus said in Luke 11, I agree. In verse 20 Peter records that "
they be again entangled in them (pollutions of the world) and overcome"; therefore, we need to discover who they are. After going back up through the verses in 2 Peter 2 one cannot find who the ones entangled in the pollutions of the world and overcome again until verse 1. Verse 1 states the following:
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 Peter 2:20-22
These false prophets are unbelievers who escaped the pollutions of the world through the
knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. They are like the seeds that fell on the rocky ground, and on the wayside, and among the weeds in Jesus parable of the sower. After hearing the word of God they "knew" the way of escape from the pollutions of the world, but they were not good ground where the seed could root and reproduce. The false prophets were again entangled in the pollutions of the world and overcome by them because they did not come into the light and become born again, saved. Their latter state was worse than their first state because there is a stronger one than them in the world who will use them; the enemy of God. These false prophets knew the way of justice in Jesus Christ as it was preached to them, but they turned back from that holy commandment which was delivered to them. They did not obey the commandment that was delivered to them, and instead turned back like a dog returning to his vomit, and a sow washed returning to wallow in the mire.
francisdesales said:
Solo said:
Peter tells us to add to that "faith" virtue...Those that lack these things have decided to stagnate at one of the stages of maturity, and not grow past being a babe in Christ as Paul speaks about to the believers at Corinth.
And without this spiritual growth, Peter tells us, we have not persevered, we have not faith, we have not Christ within us. James tells us that faith without works is dead, as does Paul - who says faith to move mountains means nothing without love. Thus, Peter merely adds to the NECESSITY of adding virtue, hope, love, and so forth to our faith in Christ so as to have eternal salvation. I remind you that "faith alone" is NEVER mentioned as being salvific in the entire bible. That is quite telling of the whole concept of sola fide...
Peter tells us to add to our faith, that is faith in Jesus Christ, virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness, and Agape love. He tells us that if we persevere in these things that are lives will not be barren and unfruitful. Peter tells us to make sure that our election is sure, and that if you do not see these levels of maturity in your life, then you are probably not born again.
Unless one is born again through faith in Jesus Christ, one will not have good works. Faith without works means that one does not have faith according to James; Faith without works is dead. Paul tells us that we are saved by grace through faith and not of works, but that we are created unto good works through Jesus Christ who bought us. Until we have faith and believe we can not do good works. Can good works save one? No. Can faith save one? Yes and works then will follow.
francisdesales said:
Solo said:
Believers are cleansed when they believe and become born again.
John tells us that there is the necessity of being cleansed AFTER baptism. He does so in his epistle, as I quoted, and also in the Gospel in Chapter 20:
"Jesus breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained." John 20:22-23
Strange that Jesus would give apostles the power to forgive sins
AFTER the Resurrection, if we follow your theology...
First of all, John does not tell us anywhere that we need to be cleansed after baptism. Those that are baptized without knowledge of the baptism will need to be baptized when they become born again, but apart from that cleansing, no other cleansing is needed.
Second, the scripture in John 20 states the following:
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained. John 20:22-23
Jesus gives the Apostles the Holy Spirit and then tells them that their judgement of the sins of individuals will be a reality. The sins of those that are believers are remitted, and the sins of those who are unbelievers are retained. The important factor in understanding this scripture is to understand that the Holy Spirit had to be given before Jesus gave them this statement that they would be able to discern the condition of believers and unbelievers concerning their sins. Remember, that Pentacost and the coming of the Holy Spirit upon believers wasn't until a good 40 days away.
francisdesales said:
Solo said:
Salvation through faith comes first, then good works follows.
Not always! Otherwise, there would be no need to "persevere"! We'd just ask God to turn on the "faith" conveyor belt, and works would automatically follow. Read the first half of James 2 - a rhetorical question asked to those who claim to have faith, but don't put their faith into action. At the end, he asks "can faith alone save" - and the answer is a resounding NO!
James describes exactly what I have been saying. Faith comes first before works. Works comes after faith. Faith saves and then we become obedient to the Holy Spirit in being about the business of God. Without the good works that believers were created to perform through Jesus Christ, then the faith is not faith at all; it is dead.
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. F7 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? James 2:17-20
When Abraham offered up Isaac knowing God's promise, did he have faith first and then offer up Isaac? Yes according to Paul, Abraham knew that God was able to raise Isaac up from the dead.
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: 19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure. Hebrews 11:17-19
francisdesales said:
Solo said:
There is no scriptural evidence of purgatory in the scriptures.
There is plenty of scriptural evidence of a third state of existence where prayers for the dead are efficacious. Not only is it Scriptural, but the earliest Christian communities practiced it, as seen in their prayer life and in their artwork and their liturgical prayers from the first century. From Scriptures, the most telling argument for this third state of existence is the following - and Jesus seems to imply this state exists when He discusses the sin that will not be forgiven, even in the next world...
"Judas came with his company, to take away the bodies of them that were slain, and to bury them with their kinsmen, in the sepulchres of their fathers. And they found under the coats of the slain, some of the donaries of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbiddeth to the Jews: so that all plainly saw, that for this cause they were slain. Then they all blessed the just judgment of the Lord, who had discovered the things that were hidden.
And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought him, that the sin which had been committed might be forgotten. But the most valiant Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forasmuch as they saw before their eyes what had happened, because of the sins of those that were slain.
And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection. (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins." 2 Macc 12:39-46
Regards
I do not find any concurrence in the rest of the scriptures to corroborate the apocraphal book of 2 Maccabees. I will close with this verse from Paul:
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. Hebrews 9:27-28
