Roman Catholics pray to the wrong person

[CatholicXian]

This could probably be an entirely separate Marian topic... nonetheless, this will be a QUICK overview of biblical verses:

Sinless:
Genesis 3:15 (notice the enmity is between not only the seed of victory, but between the woman (i.e., the mother of the seed of victory (Jesus), which is Mary) and the serpent)
Luke 1:28 "full of grace".. the Greek word is a perfect, passive participle. There's not much one can do to dimish the reality of grammar without disregarding the actual words of Scripture. "FULL" implies there's no more room... thus if one is "full of grace" then there is no room for sin.

Assumption into Heaven:
Mary is the New Ark of the Covenant. Why? What did the Ark of the Covenant in the OT contain within it... fragments from the tablets of the 10 Commandments (law), piece of Aaron's staff (priesthood), and some of the manna from the desert ("bread of life"). Mary, as the New Ark, contained within her womb Jesus, the Divine Lawgiver, Great High Priest, and the true Bread of Life.
Psalm 132:8 shows the Ark of Covenant rising into Heaven. Mary did not rise into Heaven on her power, but by the grace and power of God. Jesus ascended (of His own power) and Mary was assumed, by the power of Christ.

Mary is Queen of Heaven because this is the tradition of the Scriptures themselves. The Queen in the OT was not the King's wife (for a King had many wives... ) but his mother (cf. 1 Kings 2:19, etc.). Notice also that the Queen sat at the King's right-- this is why Jesus told the disciples that the seat at His right wasn't His to give... it was already prepared for another.

 

[Solo]

This could probably be an entirely separate Marian topic... nonetheless, this will be a QUICK overview of biblical verses:

Sinless:
Genesis 3:15 (notice the enmity is between not only the seed of victory, but between the woman (i.e., the mother of the seed of victory (Jesus), which is Mary) and the serpent)
Luke 1:28 "full of grace".. the Greek word is a perfect, passive participle. There's not much one can do to dimish the reality of grammar without disregarding the actual words of Scripture. "FULL" implies there's no more room... thus if one is "full of grace" then there is no room for sin.

Assumption into Heaven:
Mary is the New Ark of the Covenant. Why? What did the Ark of the Covenant in the OT contain within it... fragments from the tablets of the 10 Commandments (law), piece of Aaron's staff (priesthood), and some of the manna from the desert ("bread of life"). Mary, as the New Ark, contained within her womb Jesus, the Divine Lawgiver, Great High Priest, and the true Bread of Life.
Psalm 132:8 shows the Ark of Covenant rising into Heaven. Mary did not rise into Heaven on her power, but by the grace and power of God. Jesus ascended (of His own power) and Mary was assumed, by the power of Christ.

Mary is Queen of Heaven because this is the tradition of the Scriptures themselves. The Queen in the OT was not the King's wife (for a King had many wives... ) but his mother (cf. 1 Kings 2:19, etc.). Notice also that the Queen sat at the King's right-- this is why Jesus told the disciples that the seat at His right wasn't His to give... it was already prepared for another.

Genesis 3:15 is the curse that the LORD God gave to the serpeant, and He spoke that He would put enmity (hatred) between the serpeant and the woman, and between the serpeant's seed and the woman's seed. The serpeant is the one whom satan used and Eve is the one through whom God used. Satan is the father of the children of disobedience, and God is the Father of the children of God who come through the Son of God who is from the seed of Eve. Mary is not even in the picture at the time of the writing of this verse of scripture.

14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Genesis 3:14-15

The Luke scripture records that Mary was highly favored by God. The Greek word κεχαριτωμενη is a perfect passive participle verb in the nominative singular feminine case. The definition of this particple is "make accepted", "highly favored". There is no connotation of sinlessness in reference to Mary in this verse. The translation of the Greek word κεχαριτωμενη into "full of grace" is impossible since this word is a verb participle, not a noun.

και εισελθων ο αγγελος προς αυτην ειπεν χαιρε κεχαριτωμενη ο κυριος μετα σου ευλογημενη συ εν γυναιξιν

And the angel came in unto her and said Hail thou that art highly favoured the Lord is with thee blessed art thou among women. Luke 1:28

No where in the scriptures is Mary refered to as the Ark of the covenant. Noah was commanded to abide in the Ark for safety during the storm, and believers are commanded to abide in Christ Jesus to weather the storms of life. Mary is a highly favored woman of history, and one to look up to; however, she is not the ark of the New Covenant; Jesus is.

The scripture of Psalms 132:8 should be read in context so that one rightly divides the word. In 2 Chronicles 6, Solomon is praising God for the sanctuary where God would be with the Israelites. In 2 Chronicles 6:41 is the scripture found in Psalms 132:8 in its context. This is not a reference to God or Mary rising into heaven.

41 Now therefore arise, O LORD God, into thy resting place, thou, and the ark of thy strength: let thy priests, O LORD God, be clothed with salvation, and let thy saints rejoice in goodness. 2 Chronicles 6:41

Arise O LORD into thy rest thou and the ark of thy strength. Psalm 132:8

The verse of scripture 1 Kings 2:19 is a verse that fits into your theology, but when you look at the verse in its context, it is a grave error to refer to Mary as the Queen of Heaven. Let us look at 1 Kings 2:19-20:

19 Bathsheba therefore went unto king Solomon, to speak unto him for Adonijah. And the king rose up to meet her, and bowed himself unto her, and sat down on his throne, and caused a seat to be set for the king's mother; and she sat on his right hand. 20 Then she said, I desire one small petition of thee; I pray thee, say me not nay. And the king said unto her, Ask on, my mother: for I will not say thee nay. 2 Kings 2:19-20

Notice that Solomon is the King, and he is seating his mother at his right side so that she can ask him a question of which he will answer. The analogy that Mary is the King's Mother in this case would mean that Mary is God the Father's mother, when God has no mother. Mary was the mother of the incarnate flesh male, Jesus Christ; she is not the mother of God almighty. The only place that the phrase "queen of heaven" is used is recorded in Jeremiah 7 and Jeremiah 44. The queen of heaven is a pagan deity that the Lord God detests.

16 Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee. 17 Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? 18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen F31 of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger. 19 Do they provoke me to anger? saith the LORD: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces? 20 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched. Jeremiah 7:16-20

 

[ZeroTX]

Mary Ann Collins is a liar and a servant of Satan.

She was never a nun and her theology and anti-Catholic arguments are infantile. I bought and read her book while I was a vehement anti-Catholic trying to prove someone wrong. I was a strong Evangelical Protestant (Baptist and "non-denominational"). The hate and falsehoods and ridiculous statements in her book lead me to search the opposite side of the fence....

Catholic apologists talk about the truth of Christ's Church. Evangelical/Fundamentalist apologists create false arguments to discredit the Catholic Church. One approach presents truth, while the other tries to imply defacto truth by discrediting someone else.

As a matter of fact, I couldn't find one protestant apologetics book that wasn't focused on tearing down the Catholic Church... On the other hand, every Catholic apologetics book I read focused on the truth and history of the Church.

I wish I could get my money back on Mary Ann Collins' pathetic book.

-Michael

 

[francisdesales]

Catholic apologists talk about the truth of Christ's Church. Evangelical/Fundamentalist apologists create false arguments to discredit the Catholic Church. One approach presents truth, while the other tries to imply defacto truth by discrediting someone else.

As a matter of fact, I couldn't find one protestant apologetics book that wasn't focused on tearing down the Catholic Church... On the other hand, every Catholic apologetics book I read focused on the truth and history of the Church.

Michael,

That is an interesting observation. I think Protestants feel it is necessary to tear down the Catholic Church because it justifies their continued "protesting" of that "evil church". They realize that God created one Church, but cannot admit it was the Catholic Church OR they see it went into apostasy - which, to them, justifies "leaving" it.

The pillars of Protestantism aren't even in the bible - Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura. And we are supposed to believe that the God of Truth has dispersed Himself into thousands of different truths??? Thus, by trying to tear down the Church, they merely bring perdition upon themselves.

"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not." 2 Peter 2:1-3

One can only pray for such people as "Ms. Collins", that she "return" to the Catholic Church. Such false teachers are risking damnation by speaking evil of the truth.

Regards

 

[Oscar3]

Right-wing protestants are twice as bad as Catholics. Catholics idolize Mary because she carried Jesus. But, Zionists idolize the whole race that Mary belonged to.

:angel:

 

[MarkT]

Praying to Mary (asking Mary to intercede for me) is no different by way of mediation than asking any person on this forum to pray for me. Thus, the verse from 1 Tim 2:5 is unnecessary as regards this thread.

chart of "intercession"
Me-->Mary-->Jesus-->the Father
Me-->Judy (or any other member on this forum)-->Jesus-->the Father

All Christian prayer is effacious only through Jesus Christ. Mary and the other Saints in Heaven do not circumvent this unique mediation of Jesus-- they can't!--and thus, nor do we by asking for their intercession. Otherwise, we wouldn't be able to pray for one another which doesn't make any sense at all in light of 1 Tim 2:1-4 where Paul exhorts us to pray for everybody! Paul is asking us to intercede for one another in those previous verses.

Thus, prayers to Mary (or the Saints in Heaven) do not violate the mediatorship of Jesus Christ.

Well it's different because if I want to talk to you, I'm not going to call up your mother. A woman's husband is her head. Shouldn't you therefore pray to Joseph so that he can pray to ... no... command Mary to pray to Jesus so that Jesus will do what you want him to do? You can go even further and pray to Joseph's parents who will tell Joseph to command Mary to ask Jesus to ask God. It's all wrong folks!

God is our Father! This much we know. And we ask him to forgive us our trespasses and we ask him to give us our daily bread. That's the way Jesus taught us to pray. If God is in us then he is very near.

If Jesus taught us to pray to Abraham and Moses and the prophets then we might get the idea that we should pray to each other and forget about God. But that isn't the case. We know who our Father is and we know his Son.

Remember Abraham couldn't help the rich man in Hades. If he couldn't intercede, what makes you think Mary can?

Are you praying for Mary or are you praying to Mary? I guess praying for Mary wouldn't make sense since you have her on the throne. So it appears you are praying to Mary. Of course it also makes her your God.

You've got Mary being the head of Christ instead of the Father being the head of Christ. What happened to the Father? You've forgotten him!

Sounds like the culture today. :roll:

 

[MarkT]

And really, a picture of Mary wearing a crown means NOTHING. Kings also wear crowns - are they also worshipped as God?

Kings wear crowns - yes. As kings, they rule over us. So you're saying Mary rules over you? Even though Jesus honored his mother, he never said she ruled over him. In fact what Jesus said was that he could do nothing of his own accord but only what he saw the Father doing. John 5:19

 

[Atonement]

If I was gonna ask anyone to pray for me, I would hope they have a pulse.

 

[DavidJoseph]

Well it's different because if I want to talk to you, I'm not going to call up your mother. A woman's husband is her head. Shouldn't you therefore pray to Joseph so that he can pray to ... no... command Mary to pray to Jesus so that Jesus will do what you want him to do? You can go even further and pray to Joseph's parents who will tell Joseph to command Mary to ask Jesus to ask God. It's all wrong folks!

God is our Father! This much we know. And we ask him to forgive us our trespasses and we ask him to give us our daily bread. That's the way Jesus taught us to pray. If God is in us then he is very near.

If Jesus taught us to pray to Abraham and Moses and the prophets then we might get the idea that we should pray to each other and forget about God. But that isn't the case. We know who our Father is and we know his Son.

Remember Abraham couldn't help the rich man in Hades. If he couldn't intercede, what makes you think Mary can?

Are you praying for Mary or are you praying to Mary? I guess praying for Mary wouldn't make sense since you have her on the throne. So it appears you are praying to Mary. Of course it also makes her your God.

You've got Mary being the head of Christ instead of the Father being the head of Christ. What happened to the Father? You've forgotten him!

Sounds like the culture today. :roll:

We ask Mary to pray FOR us. If neither she nor any saint in heaven can pray for us, then neither can you or anyone else who's alive, as according to you it would make us forget about God.

Besides, since Christ is King of Kings and Lord of Lords, it's only fitting that she be Queen of Heaven and Earth. Besides, in Old Testament times, it was the mother of the king who was queen rather than the king's wife, as the king often had several wives. Just read the Old Testament, and you'll see that when Solomon was king, Bathsheba and not one of his wives was queen. Bathsheba wasn't Solomon's head, though, and Mary isn't Christ's head.

Your citation of Abraham and the rich man in Hades doesn't prove your point. The rich man was already damned, and it doesn't make sense that God or anyone else in heaven would acknowledge any prayers they might make. So it's comparing apples and oranges.