Romans 5:15-17

[savedbygrace57]

Romans 5:


15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift[By One] is of many offences unto justification.

17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ )

Whose act was more powerful ? Adam's or Christ ?

When we read these verses Paul in His gospel is showing that there was a typical correspondence between adam and Christ, but yet the parallel does show a difference in the nature of their acts and effects.

First the nature of their actions were different in that adam sinned in the most ideal and pristine of circumstances. The Lord Jesus Christ on the other hand remained pure and obedient under the worst of conditions, yet adam sinned and Christ remained righteous. Now between the Two consequences of the actions of the Two, differ somewhat in degree, notice vs 15

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Paul is saying, that the Gift [Christ and His work on the Cross] is not like the trespass [adam's transgression] Christ work being a work of Grace [Heb 2:9] and He being God Man, that what He did is way more powerful that what adam did and we in him that act of demerit. Yes his brought as consequences "death" to his offspring: Yet how much more [with no question] does the gift that flows from Grace, the effects of the God Man, overflow to the many, for their benefit..

 

[childeye]

I would respectfully ask what is meant by the word demerit as it is applied. Apart from that it seems to me that unless we accept the inclusion in Adam and confess our sinful nature in him, we cannot therefore recieive the free gift that comes by grace.

 

[savedbygrace57]

child asked:

I would respectfully ask what is meant by the word demerit as it is applied

All you have to do is look up the word in a dictionary online. But here is definition:

A quality or characteristic deserving of blame or censure; a fault. Absence of merit. A mark made against one's record for a fault or for misconduct.

Apart from that it seems to me that unless we accept the inclusion in Adam and confess our sinful nature in him, we cannot therefore recieive the free gift that comes by grace.

You do not have to do anything, it was done unto you by the action and consequence by another, thats the point..

 

[Eventide]

You do not have to do anything, it was done unto you by the action and consequence by another, thats the point..

So if a person asked you sincerely.. "what must I do to be saved ?"

Your answer would be.. "nothing."

? ? ?

 

[savedbygrace57]

There is yet another difference vs 16

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

That is one sin by adam brought in condemnation to the many, but the free gift [the effects of Christ cross] cancels out the one sin in adam and all the many subsequent sins of each of the many ! One more thing is here contrasted, in that adam's sin resulted in condemnation and death, Christ [cross work] results in Justification even unto Life vs18! In other words it provides life from the death in adam that was caused..There can be no Justification without life attending with it.

Now notice, these results are not something that are offered for acceptance, but what is passed on and received..

 

[Eventide]

Yeah, I can understand not wanting to answer that simple question.. lol

 

[savedbygrace57]

Now Romans 5 17 is a summary of what was declared in verses 15-16 and it reads:

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ )

If by One mans offence [adam] death reigned by him, that is all his descendants receive death, not that they were offered death and could make a choice of whether they want it or not, but they received it by Divine Decree, so likewise, the descendants of Jesus Christ receive abundance of Grace with the Gift of righteousness,and shall reign in life by one Jesus Christ.

This is very important, because in order for Christ's act to be superior to adam's, Those whom He represented from adams death, must receive abundance of grace,not by offer, but by Divine Decree, that they may reign in life through Jesus Christ.

Their receiving this abundance of Grace is no more conditioned upon them doing something to receive it as was those receiving death from adam having to do something to receive death, both receiving are automatic effects because of the Acts of Each Head in regards to their descendants..

 

[savedbygrace57]

Justified before birth !



Rom 5:

16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

For if the Righteousness of Christ doth come upon all the Elect unto Justification, in the same manner as Adams sin came upon all men, to condemnation, as the Apostle shows it does, Rom. 5. Then it must follow, That the Righteousness of Christ was reckoned or imputed to the Elect, before they had a Being, and then much more before they do believe in him; for it is evident that Adams sin came upon all men to condemnation, before they had a being !

 

[savedbygrace57]

All for whom Christ died and represented shall receive the abundance of Grace and the gift of righteousness, so says the scripture Rom 5:17

much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

They receive it because it abounds to them as vs 15 explains Rom 5:15

15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
​

 

[Jake]

According to your "do nothing" salvation plan, you have made these verses below null and void, and only appear to focus in on select versus to create your case. Just the other day someone from here, showed me the balance we need with scripture.

Luke 9:23 And he said unto all, If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. 24 For whosoever would save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. 25 For what is a man profited, if he gain the whole world, and lose or forfeit his own self?
Romans 8:12 So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh: for if ye live after the flesh, ye must die; but if by the Spirit ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Romans 12 1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service. 2 And be not fashioned according to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, and ye may prove what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

It seems it's not a "do nothing" plan of salvation after all.
peace.

 

[savedbygrace57]

rock:

According to your "do nothing" salvation plan,

In the Salvation I am witnessing to, Christ did it all..

 

[Jake]

rock:



In the Salvation I am witnessing to, Christ did it all..

So you admit to ignoring other verses in the Bible?

 

[Adullam]

rock:



In the Salvation I am witnessing to, Christ did it all..

Christ did all in Himself so as to equip us in ourselves through Him. Then we walk as He did in the world.

We need to grow from a personal theology to a divine experience in reality: from what He did for me to what HE is doing through me!

 

[Potluck]

Do nothing?
I hardly believe the changing of the mind is nothing. Whether it be my one's contrition through accepting Christ, by God's holy grace, Christ touching one's heart or any of the above or more the result is the same... where once I was blind now I see.

That isn't nothing. The point being made is that through the works of Christ you are saved. You can't do it but He did.

I often see t-shirts displaying something like Christ carried His cross a mile... how far will you carry yours?
That one erks me for some reason. Christ carried His cross that you won't have to. Besides, when He said take up your cross and follow me He was simply demonstrating that nobody could do it. Didn't He say where I go ye cannot follow? If one believes a need to carry their cross then I'd have to say one has missed the point entirely thinking salvation is on their shoulders to carry their cross to follow Christ where they themselves can't go. Go figure.
He said I go to prepare a place for you. Not you go and prepare a place for yourself and if you do a good enough job you will earn my permission to abide there.

My spirit was of the world before I was saved. In what the world did, in what the world applauded I saw nothing wrong. But that changed in an instant. My mind, heart and soul were changed. What I had allowed as ok wasn't anymore.
That isn't nothing. That's something of which the angels rejoice in heaven confessing His grace and saving power to turn a wayward mind toward Him, away from the world of men.

 

[Jake]

Do nothing?
I hardly believe the changing of the mind is nothing. Whether it be my one's contrition through accepting Christ, by God's holy grace, Christ touching one's heart or any of the above or more the result is the same... where once I was blind now I see.

That isn't nothing. The point being made is that through the works of Christ you are saved. You can't do it but He did.

I often see t-shirts displaying something like Christ carried His cross a mile... how far will you carry yours?
That one erks me for some reason. Christ carried His cross that you won't have to. Besides, when He said take up your cross and follow me He was simply demonstrating that nobody could do it. Didn't He say where I go ye cannot follow? If one believes a need to carry their cross then I'd have to say one has missed the point entirely thinking salvation is on their shoulders to carry their cross to follow Christ where they themselves can't go. Go figure.
He said I go to prepare a place for you. Not you go and prepare a place for yourself and if you do a good enough job you will earn my permission to abide there.

My spirit was of the world before I was saved. In what the world did, in what the world applauded I saw nothing wrong. But that changed in an instant. My mind, heart and soul were changed. What I had allowed as ok wasn't anymore.
That isn't nothing. That's something of which the angels rejoice in heaven confessing His grace and saving power to turn a wayward mind toward Him, away from the world of men.

so you also ignore and make some scripture null and void?

without Christ we can not, but now we have Christ in us. All things are possible and yes, we carry our cross, we die to ourselves and we conform to the image of Christ.

 

[Potluck]

What cross do we bear that He didn't already? Do we bear "our" cross that we may nail our sin upon it? Or had Christ already nailed our sin to the cross? For what purpose do you bear "your" cross? To what end?

 

[Adullam]

What cross do we bear that He didn't already? Do we bear "our" cross that we may nail our sin upon it? Or had Christ already nailed our sin to the cross? For what purpose do you bear "your" cross? To what end?

The body of sin is crucified with Christ. There is a wholeness to that death. We must never draw from that life.

But Jesus Christ is also resurrected! He gives us HIS life to walk in!

So we need to look to Christ and carry around the dying of ourselves to this world. Otherwise we will start to act like those around us.

So we reckon the old life as past! We surrender that life to the death with Christ on the cross. He does that part for us IF we surrender ALL to Him.

Our position here is fragile, and our flesh is weak. So we need to realize that any strength that we walk in that is NOT Christ living in us...is of the flesh! All that is not of faith is sin!

So rather we wait on the LOrd to be empowered by His life in us to do the works that He has prepared in advance.

 

[Potluck]

Sure thing. The things I used to do I no longer do. I don't drink to oblivion, I don't carouse around doing the permissible things of the world thinking all is ok... in short I'm doing something else other than what I was doing. People saw that. I've heard, "He got religion" and I wasn't thumping a bible, preaching to them to make straight the way of the Lord! or putting on appearances of righteousness and smiling all the time.
People knew. They knew my old self. And they came to know the new. I no longer advocate that which I taught, those things of the world, preaching it's lusts, desires, it's nature, it's way of life.
I bear no cross. I glorify in His not my own. He bore the cross, was nailed upon it, died upon it and rose from the dead conquering death once and for all for those that would believe. Do I bear a cross that I too will be nailed upon? I don't think so. Will I nail my sin upon the cross I bear? nope.
I understand what you're saying in dying to the flesh on a daily basis. But I'm having a hard time with the idea of bearing a cross so that I don't backslide. The best insurance from going back to the world and it's ways is never to turn your back on the cross He bore rather than focusing on your own. And no, I don't care to get into a "Can one lose their salvation" debate.
Focus on Him, not yourself. Focus on His cross and not yours. Focus on what He did and not on what you think you should be doing. It'll work out a lot better with a lot less effort.
If people want to bear a cross that's their business I suppose. As for me I tossed mine aside when I saw His.

 

[Jake]

Sure thing. The things I used to do I no longer do. I don't drink to oblivion, I don't carouse around doing the permissible things of the world thinking all is ok... in short I'm doing something else other than what I was doing. People saw that. I've heard, "He got religion" and I wasn't thumping a bible, preaching to them to make straight the way of the Lord! or putting on appearances of righteousness and smiling all the time.
People knew. They knew my old self. And they came to know the new. I no longer advocate that which I taught, those things of the world, preaching it's lusts, desires, it's nature, it's way of life.
I bear no cross. I glorify in His not my own. He bore the cross, was nailed upon it, died upon it and rose from the dead conquering death once and for all for those that would believe. Do I bear a cross that I too will be nailed upon? I don't think so. Will I nail my sin upon the cross I bear? nope.
I understand what you're saying in dying to the flesh on a daily basis. But I'm having a hard time with the idea of bearing a cross so that I don't backslide. The best insurance from going back to the world and it's ways is never to turn your back on the cross He bore rather than focusing on your own. And no, I don't care to get into a "Can one lose their salvation" debate.
Focus on Him, not yourself. Focus on His cross and not yours. Focus on what He did and not on what you think you should be doing. It'll work out a lot better with a lot less effort.
If people want to bear a cross that's their business I suppose. As for me I tossed mine aside when I saw His.

Luke 14: 27 And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

 

[Adullam]

Sure thing. The things I used to do I no longer do. I don't drink to oblivion, I don't carouse around doing the permissible things of the world thinking all is ok... in short I'm doing something else other than what I was doing. People saw that. I've heard, "He got religion" and I wasn't thumping a bible, preaching to them to make straight the way of the Lord! or putting on appearances of righteousness and smiling all the time.
People knew. They knew my old self. And they came to know the new. I no longer advocate that which I taught, those things of the world, preaching it's lusts, desires, it's nature, it's way of life.
I bear no cross. I glorify in His not my own. He bore the cross, was nailed upon it, died upon it and rose from the dead conquering death once and for all for those that would believe. Do I bear a cross that I too will be nailed upon? I don't think so. Will I nail my sin upon the cross I bear? nope.
I understand what you're saying in dying to the flesh on a daily basis. But I'm having a hard time with the idea of bearing a cross so that I don't backslide. The best insurance from going back to the world and it's ways is never to turn your back on the cross He bore rather than focusing on your own. And no, I don't care to get into a "Can one lose their salvation" debate.
Focus on Him, not yourself. Focus on His cross and not yours. Focus on what He did and not on what you think you should be doing. It'll work out a lot better with a lot less effort.
If people want to bear a cross that's their business I suppose. As for me I tossed mine aside when I saw His.

There are 2 possible ways we can follow Christ.

One is to try to do it ourselves. We can do many things...volunteer our time, pray for people, meditate on the word etc...


While this is good, there is an even better way!

That is to give up our lives to God looking to Him to do HIS work in us. It is the way of the exchanged life. No longer I, but Christ! This is a supernatural transformation that begins when we offer ourselves FULLY to God. In this way it is all or nothing. We surrender all and we receive His life in return.

If we attempt the first way...we will never succeed in overcoming sin. We will only be able to carry SOME of our own death. We can't carry ourselves!

But the second way...that of walking in Christ makes it possible to walk fully dead to our own self life and fully alive in Christ in His divine life. In this way we are walking in HIS resurrection life since it is God who crucified our old sin nature factory. He does it! It is a perfect work...not half-way, but all the way! We just walk to keep it that way by NOT looking back!