Romans 5:15-17

[Potluck]

Well Adullam I think we're talking about the same thing in many respects just voicing it in differing ways.

For those with a works-centered belief I'll leave the discussion with this thought:

Job 40:6 Then answered the LORD unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
Job 40:7 Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?
Job 40:9 Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?
Job 40:10 Deck thyself now with majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty.
Job 40:11 Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath: and behold every one that is proud, and abase him.
Job 40:12 Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place.
Job 40:13 Hide them in the dust together; and bind their faces in secret.
Job 40:14 Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.

 

[stovebolts]

Luke 14: 27 And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

Hi Rocky,

To start with, Nice car! The avatar is a bit small, but is that a 66?

Anyway, in regard to the verse you posted above, in your view, what would that look like put into real life? In other words, how do you live that out each and every day? To be more specific, what do you do that shows your living this out?

Thanks!

 

[stovebolts]

Hi Potluck!

Just so nobody gots the crazy idea I'm a preaching works based salvation,

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.

Galatians 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

When I read of how God has transformed your life, I'm reminded of Galatians 6:14

 

[Jake]

Hi Rocky,

To start with, Nice car! The avatar is a bit small, but is that a 66?

Anyway, in regard to the verse you posted above, in your view, what would that look like put into real life? In other words, how do you live that out each and every day? To be more specific, what do you do that shows your living this out?

Thanks!

thanks, yes it's a 66 and no it's not mine (yet). lol

i do not want my flesh to control me, although sometimes it does and i am still working on some things, but mostly i do not want do what the world would tell me i should do and do what the Lord tells me to do, instead. for example, i felt that God was telling me i should not date, i wasn't sure because everyone else is doing it, so i did post the question and through that it was a confirmation that it was God showing me to abstain from dating, so i will, although it may not be easy in the future. lol this is carrying my cross, to do as He did, even if it's the hard road.
another example is one of my friends threw a party, i knew they would be drinking but i wanted to go anyway, but i felt the Lord telling me not to go, which was also not easy because some of my other friends were going and teen-agers want to hang out, right? but i didn't go, and i was not at all happy about it, if a teen could throw a temper-tantrum, then i did. lol, but i did obey and then the party was busted by the cops.
i could continue in my examples of how walking with Him and carrying the cross to truly die to flesh, is the only way to go. is this what you wanted?

 

[stovebolts]

Hi Rocky,

Yes, that is exactly what I was looking for.

It's when you want to go along with the rest of the world, but you take the narrow way.. the difficult way. You take the right way.

It gets easier as time goes by, and what once was hard not only becomes a joy, but much more joy comes from living the way of Jesus than by giving in to the way the world would have you to react and live. Why? Because the life (joy) the world has to offer many times is temporary. It's a quick feel good that doesn't last. In Christ, we have a joy that lasts an eternity, and we can experience that joy every day, even in our daily struggles.

God bless :yes

 

[Jake]

i do have a question about bearing one's cross though, i really believe the bigger picture is to die to ourselves, yet i have heard so many people say that bearing their cross are problems they experience in their lives. for instance, a parent with a wayward kid - they say that is their cross to carry or another example is a person who has all these problems and that is their cross to carry.

Is it both?

 

[Adullam]

i do have a question about bearing one's cross though, i really believe the bigger picture is to die to ourselves, yet i have heard so many people say that bearing their cross are problems they experience in their lives. for instance, a parent with a wayward kid - they say that is their cross to carry or another example is a person who has all these problems and that is their cross to carry.

Is it both?

Yes it is both because the cross is forging our character as well as separating us from what we would want to do of ourselves. God ordains the race that we will run, and the hurdles that we encounter.

Everything is on 2 levels at the same time.

We can eat the word...but we still need to physically eat as well!

We can carry the death of the flesh nature with us but we must also do what we are responsible for and bear THAT responsibility as well.

What normally happens is that men get so overwhelmed in the physical things that they can't grasp the spiritual aspect.

Then some who have grasped the spiritual aspect may choose to leave their responsibilities undone in the physical realm.

But there are 2 great commandments.

One is spiritual in that we love God and serve Him alone on that level.

The other is more practical, that we love others as serve them in their needs.

Seem contradictory?

To some it is! But both work together if we get our priorities right!

 

[Jake]

Yes it is both because the cross is forging our character as well as separating us from what we would want to do of ourselves. God ordains the race that we will run, and the hurdles that we encounter.

Everything is on 2 levels at the same time.

We can eat the word...but we still need to physically eat as well!

We can carry the death of the flesh nature with us but we must also do what we are responsible for and bear THAT responsibility as well.

What normally happens is that men get so overwhelmed in the physical things that they can't grasp the spiritual aspect.

Then some who have grasped the spiritual aspect may choose to leave their responsibilities undone in the physical realm.

But there are 2 great commandments.

One is spiritual in that we love God and serve Him alone on that level.

The other is more practical, that we love others as serve them in their needs.

Seem contradictory?

To some it is! But both work together if we get our priorities right!

i got it, it's the balance thing again. when you look at it, it would be difficult to continue dying to ourselves by carrying the cross w/out the other crosses we have to carry, because when the bad things come along, we need to react with the Spirit and not the flesh, which is carrying the cross of dying to self. if that makes sense. lol
thanks.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Rom 5:17

17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ )

Don't miss the Principle of contrast Paul is making here. Just like death reigned by one man adam, his one act of offense caused many to receive death, much more, The one act of Christ, shall cause many to receive abundance of Grace, and The Gift of Righteousness, and they shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ. Notice it says they shall reign, not maybe or its available for them to reign in life, but they shall reign..

 

[Adullam]

i got it, it's the balance thing again. when you look at it, it would be difficult to continue dying to ourselves by carrying the cross w/out the other crosses we have to carry, because when the bad things come along, we need to react with the Spirit and not the flesh, which is carrying the cross of dying to self. if that makes sense. lol
thanks.

Excellent Rockie! You got it!

 

[savedbygrace57]

Grace abounds [its applied] to the many Christ died for, its not offered , but it abounds to them !

Rom 5:15

15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

The false teachers of our day teach that grace being applied is conditional upon it being accepted from an offer, thats not true, they are wresting the scriptures. The Grace of God abounds to the many, by Jesus Christ, unto all for whom He died.

The Many in the greek has the definite article, specifying a particular group as the Many. It is the Many Christ shed His blood for in the New Covenant Matt 26:28.

Paul confirms this in His Epistle to the Ephesians 1:7-8

7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

8Wherein he[God] hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

The riches of His [God's] Grace at the end of vs 7, is abounded towards us [ The Many or the Chosen [Eph 1:4] in all wisdom and prudence .

God is active in having caused it [Rich Grace] to abound [being applied] to us, if we are His Chosen or of the Many !

 

[Eventide]

The false teachers of our day teach that grace being applied is conditional upon it being accepted from an offer, thats not true, they are wresting the scriptures.

The false teachers of our day are those who teach and preach that election is unconditional.. because the scriptures could not be any more clear on this matter.. that God chose us to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

As many as RECEIVED HIM, to them gave HE power to become the sons of God..

Calvinism is perhaps the worst false gospel of our day.

 

[savedbygrace57]

even

As many as RECEIVED HIM, to them gave HE power to become the sons of God..

Of course they received Him, since Grace had abounded towards them.

They believed through or by means of Grace acts 18:

27And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

Again:

Rom 5:15

15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

All of the Many receive from Christ Grace to believe Jn 1:16

16And of his[The Man Jesus Christ] fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

 

[Eventide]

even

Of course they received Him, since Grace had abounded towards them.

And of course the scriptures teach us that the grace of God which brings salvation has appeared to all men.. although since you've embraced the false doctrines of Calvinism, you must change this to mean only the elect..

What did YOU DO to be saved..

a) Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ

b) Nothing

? ? ?

 

[Jake]

And of course the scriptures teach us that the grace of God which brings salvation has appeared to all men.. although since you've embraced the false doctrines of Calvinism, you must change this to mean only the elect..

What did YOU DO to be saved..

a) Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ

b) Nothing

? ? ?

it's not like SBG has done NOTHING, after all, what he has DONE is taken 1/2 of the Bible and thrown out with the trash.
that is at least something.

 

[Eventide]

it's not like SBG has done NOTHING, after all, what he has DONE is taken 1/2 of the Bible and thrown out with the trash.
that is at least something.

LOL... Good point..

 

[savedbygrace57]

Rom 5:18

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

All for whom Christ died, they receive by free gift, Justification of life; And since all men without exception do not receive Justification of Life, it is quite obvious that Christ did not die for all men without exception !

The effects of what Christ accomplished for those He was the Representative head of [ His Church] cannot be less effective as the effect of what Adam accomplished by his one offence ! Now Adam's effects to those he represented, condemnation came upon them, it was not offered them, made available for them, it was not their freewill choice, but it came upon them Sovereignly !

So in likewise manner, Christ effects to all those He represented [ The seed of Abraham Heb 2:16] Justification of life came upon them. Neither was it offered them, made available to them, nor was it their freewill choice, but it came upon them Sovereignly ! To deny this is a rejection of what Christ accomplished for His People and its putting the effects of Adam over and above that of Christ, which is dishonoring to Christ to say the least.

 

[Saltwater]

Rom 5:18

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

All for whom Christ died, they receive by free gift, Justification of life; And since all men without exception do not receive Justification of Life, it is quite obvious that Christ did not die for all men without exception !

The effects of what Christ accomplished for those He was the Representative head of [ His Church] cannot be less effective as the effect of what Adam accomplished by his one offence ! Now Adam's effects to those he represented, condemnation came upon them, it was not offered them, made available for them, it was not their freewill choice, but it came upon them Sovereignly !

So in likewise manner, Christ effects to all those He represented [ The seed of Abraham Heb 2:16] Justification of life came upon them. Neither was it offered them, made available to them, nor was it their freewill choice, but it came upon them Sovereignly ! To deny this is a rejection of what Christ accomplished for His People and its putting the effects of Adam over and above that of Christ, which is dishonoring to Christ to say the least.

Hello again SbG57,

I would encourage you to try some exegesis of the Scriptures rather than a constant stream of eisegesis in order for you to grow into further maturity in Christ.What you are almost constantly writing is a swirling theological river of logic which is open to be tested for its truth by the Scriptures & I mean not just the Scriptures that you provide.

Since you are presenting a Calvinistic/Reformed swathe of theology I would encourage you to spend some time looking at Arminian/Wesleyan articles which critique this C/R theology & try & spot any errors in their exegesis.The same goes for checking out their doctrine.

An excellent book to look at is Arminian Theology by Roger Olson which addresses many of the myths/misconceptions of this theology.

As a young Christian I spent the first year following my brother's advice & learnt the basic doctrines of Christianity plus praying for discernment per Eph4:11-15 & Phill 1:9.

Calvinsim/Reformed theology collapsed like a house of cards when I checked out the scriptures which warn of a christian losing their salvation (by doctrine per 1Tim4:1 & behaviour Gal5:16-21 -the list is not exhaustive). That's how I learnt that the Bible must be read according to the laws of grammar otherwise you can make it say anything. When a theology has to explain away the simple straight forward language of these verses with long winded explanations or by simply ignoring them altogether then I knew the game was up.

I soon saw of examples of Bible twisting when I checked out the basic doctrines of some of the Bible based cults (JWs, Bahais, Mormons & New Age Movement). I figured if the Christian doctrine I had learnt was true then I would be able to spot the errors in the use of scripture by these cults & errors there were aplenty!!!

So please SbG57, you clearly like posting isssues that you like to discuss but in all fairness you need to respond to any verses that are provided as challenges to your theology & please no more eisegesis.Pull the verses you are providing apart & then look forward to some lively & interesting discussion of them by the members & guests.

 

[savedbygrace57]

salt

Hello again SbG57,

I would encourage you to try some exegesis of the Scriptures rather than a constant stream of eisegesis in order for you to grow into further maturity in Christ.

Deal with the Truth I just presented on Rom 5:18 and quit the rabbit trails..

 

[Saltwater]

salt



Deal with the Truth I just presented on Rom 5:18 and quit the rabbit trails..

Adios SbG57,

Why do you continue to post when you are not interested in any debate of your comments?

Ps - how about a detailed explanation of what you mean by rabbit trails? I am not familair with the term although I will guess it may be quite derogatory??

I will not bother trying for any further debate with you as you are clearly not interested in dealing with scriptures which challenges your views.