Bible Study Romans 6:23 contrasted with 1 John 5:16-17

[WIP]

We recently came upon 1 John 5 at one of our morning devotional prayer breakfasts and the question that I asked was, "What sin does not lead to death?"

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23 NKJV

I would like to gain understanding on this. Furthermore, why does John suggest not to pray for sin leading to death?

1 John 5:16-17 NKJV
16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.
17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

 

[Brother Mike]

We recently came upon 1 John 5 at one of our morning devotional prayer breakfasts and the question that I asked was, "What sin does not lead to death?"

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23 NKJV

I would like to gain understanding on this. Furthermore, why does John suggest not to pray for sin leading to death?

1 John 5:16-17 NKJV
16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.
17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

I'll post ALL the scriptures if asked.

A wage is something paid out. All sin leads to death. Jesus said I come to give you life abundantly and it's the thief that came to kill, steal and destroy.

1Jn_3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

So, all sin, gives the destroyer a place. That means your quality of life is diminished, normally starting with money issues and things constantly breaking, then health. Things die in your life.
Jesus saying even that which he has shall be taken.

So, if we see a person sinning, we pray, and that halts the destroyer, that he may be given life. The devil won't just come in now and take away the quality of life Jesus paid for, to keep the destroyer at bay, the thief, the murderer.

Sin, destroys the quality of life, it kills things like relationships, money, jobs, health. Not only that, but stepping in the devils territory can cost you your life. I have seen a brother sin, and killed. I wondered where the grace was, but as the Lord told me about the tower that fell on those people, anything goes in devil town. Repent, or likewise it could happen to you, Jesus said.


John said there is a sin unto death. It would be something visible or seen as John describes.

If we keep reading, John tells us what that is, and warns to stay away from that one. That is the one that will get you lost.

Heb 6, and 10 also mention it.

Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
(Heb 10:29)

Heb 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Back to John:
If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
(1Jn 5:16)

And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
(1Jn 5:20-21)

 

[iLOVE]

The phrase, "If any man see his Brother sin a sin which is not unto death," as is obvious speaks of professing Christians, and in actuality, true Christians. Such a person has been genuinely saved, and is saved; however, they are rebelling against Christ and His Finished Work, through ignorance.

The idea is, such a Brother not knowing the way of the Cross, is living a life of spiritual failure, but yet he is saved. While what is being done will not cause the loss of the soul, it will cause the loss of all victory, in effect, making life miserable.

Death, in the great Master's vocabulary, was more than a single action. There are two realms for man's soul coextensive with the universe and with itself. One which leads towards God is called Life; one which leads from Him is called Death.

The phrase, "There is a sin unto death", speaks of Believers. This "sin unto death" constitutes Believers who are in effect ceasing to believe.

The phrase, "I do not say that he shall pray for it," problem is not ignorance but rather unbelief.

 

[jocor]

I believe the sin unto death is one of two things. One is the sin of unbelief. Any believer who no longer believes Yeshua is the promised Messiah and Savior of the world and ends up renouncing him cannot be renewed unto repentance no matter how much he/she is prayed for. Therefore, they are doomed to eternal death for trampling on the blood that saved them. We should not pray for such people because once you renounce Yeshua, there is no hope (Heb 6:4-8).

The other would be blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

All other sins would not be unto death.

 

[WIP]

I'll post ALL the scriptures if asked.

A wage is something paid out. All sin leads to death. Jesus said I come to give you life abundantly and it's the thief that came to kill, steal and destroy.

1Jn_3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

So, all sin, gives the destroyer a place. That means your quality of life is diminished, normally starting with money issues and things constantly breaking, then health. Things die in your life.
Jesus saying even that which he has shall be taken.

So, if we see a person sinning, we pray, and that halts the destroyer, that he may be given life. The devil won't just come in now and take away the quality of life Jesus paid for, to keep the destroyer at bay, the thief, the murderer.

Sin, destroys the quality of life, it kills things like relationships, money, jobs, health. Not only that, but stepping in the devils territory can cost you your life. I have seen a brother sin, and killed. I wondered where the grace was, but as the Lord told me about the tower that fell on those people, anything goes in devil town. Repent, or likewise it could happen to you, Jesus said.


John said there is a sin unto death. It would be something visible or seen as John describes.

If we keep reading, John tells us what that is, and warns to stay away from that one. That is the one that will get you lost.

Heb 6, and 10 also mention it.

Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
(Heb 10:29)

Heb 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Back to John:
If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
(1Jn 5:16)

And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
(1Jn 5:20-21)

When I really think about it, I can't think of any sin that can't be related back to idol worship. So therefore, what sin does not lead to death?

 

[WIP]

The phrase, "If any man see his Brother sin a sin which is not unto death," as is obvious speaks of professing Christians, and in actuality, true Christians. Such a person has been genuinely saved, and is saved; however, they are rebelling against Christ and His Finished Work, through ignorance.

The idea is, such a Brother not knowing the way of the Cross, is living a life of spiritual failure, but yet he is saved. While what is being done will not cause the loss of the soul, it will cause the loss of all victory, in effect, making life miserable.

Death, in the great Master's vocabulary, was more than a single action. There are two realms for man's soul coextensive with the universe and with itself. One which leads towards God is called Life; one which leads from Him is called Death.

The phrase, "There is a sin unto death", speaks of Believers. This "sin unto death" constitutes Believers who are in effect ceasing to believe.

The phrase, "I do not say that he shall pray for it," problem is not ignorance but rather unbelief.

This is confusing to me. How is someone saved and yet rejecting Christ? And, if rejecting Christ leads to death then how are they still saved?

 

[WIP]

I believe the sin unto death is one of two things. One is the sin of unbelief. Any believer who no longer believes Yeshua is the promised Messiah and Savior of the world and ends up renouncing him cannot be renewed unto repentance no matter how much he/she is prayed for. Therefore, they are doomed to eternal death for trampling on the blood that saved them. We should not pray for such people because once you renounce Yeshua, there is no hope (Heb 6:4-8).

The other would be blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

All other sins would not be unto death.

Correct me if I'm wrong but are you saying someone can lose their salvation?

 

[Edward]

This is confusing to me. How is someone saved and yet rejecting Christ? And, if rejecting Christ leads to death then how are they still saved?

I know a man who got saved, baptized and began walking with the Lord as a saved soul. Then his wife left him and somehow or other, he blamed it on God and rejected Him from then on because of the loss of his Wife.

I do not believe that this individual is still saved. I pray for him to be, but I think this is exactly the situation described as the sin unto death, or blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

 

[jocor]

Correct me if I'm wrong but are you saying someone can lose their salvation?

Yes. We received salvation through belief in Yeshua and we lose it through unbelief in Yeshua.

 

[HBEtechnician]

We recently came upon 1 John 5 at one of our morning devotional prayer breakfasts and the question that I asked was, "What sin does not lead to death?"

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23 NKJV

I would like to gain understanding on this. Furthermore, why does John suggest not to pray for sin leading to death?

1 John 5:16-17 NKJV
16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.
17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

This is the kinda thing one needs a big bag of potato chips for, and I have such a bag.

Back........................mmmmm

Well it seems to me that accepting anything from the tree of knowledge of good or evil doesn't actually lead to death. Well you have to first pick the fruit from the tree (That's like accepting something that's good or evil) At this point you're fine, but it's untill you eat the fruit itself you're no longer fine.

This could be the sin that doesn't lead to death, to accept the forbidden fruit but not to eat of it.

Well that's all I got, now I've have to clean the grease off my phone.

 

[Brother Mike]

When I really think about it, I can't think of any sin that can't be related back to idol worship. So therefore, what sin does not lead to death?

Paul said Covetousness is idolatry. Making or longing after something greater than God.

John is not speaking of those idols, John is speaking of actual idols.

There is a sin unto Death.
Jesus is the true God.
Stay away from other gods.

If a believer has had fellowship with the Lord, knows the Lord Jesus, the power of the Holy Spirit and things to come. If that believer Willfully and with thought and faith say I believe Allah, bubba, Hooda, and whatever gods there may be can save me, then by their own free choice, they can leave.

Even in persecutions, you don't change gods, for God has no pleasure in those that draw back. That was the case in Hebrews, going back to Judaism.

The AMP brings this out pretty well.
If they then deviate from the faith and turn away from their allegiance--[it is impossible] to bring them back to repentance, for (because, while, as long as) they nail upon the cross the Son of God afresh [as far as they are concerned] and are holding [Him] up to contempt and shame and public disgrace.
(Heb 6:6)

Scripture says they can't be born again twice, and there is no other salvation but in Jesus. This is not just putting watching TV first, as the Lord is still in their remembrance. This is turning your allegiance to another god, that can't save you, counting the blood covenant which you were made clean a unholy thing.

Scripture did not say that they can't repent and come back, much like the younger son did in Luke. It says WE CAN'T BRING THEM BACK, We can't ask them to be forgiven, there is nothing we can do for them.

And why John said don't pray for that.

Be blessed.

 

[WIP]

Paul said Covetousness is idolatry. Making or longing after something greater than God.

John is not speaking of those idols, John is speaking of actual idols.

There is a sin unto Death.
Jesus is the true God.
Stay away from other gods.

If a believer has had fellowship with the Lord, knows the Lord Jesus, the power of the Holy Spirit and things to come. If that believer Willfully and with thought and faith say I believe Allah, bubba, Hooda, and whatever gods there may be can save me, then by their own free choice, they can leave.

Even in persecutions, you don't change gods, for God has no pleasure in those that draw back. That was the case in Hebrews, going back to Judaism.

The AMP brings this out pretty well.
If they then deviate from the faith and turn away from their allegiance--[it is impossible] to bring them back to repentance, for (because, while, as long as) they nail upon the cross the Son of God afresh [as far as they are concerned] and are holding [Him] up to contempt and shame and public disgrace.
(Heb 6:6)

Scripture says they can't be born again twice, and there is no other salvation but in Jesus. This is not just putting watching TV first, as the Lord is still in their remembrance. This is turning your allegiance to another god, that can't save you, counting the blood covenant which you were made clean a unholy thing.

Scripture did not say that they can't repent and come back, much like the younger son did in Luke. It says WE CAN'T BRING THEM BACK, We can't ask them to be forgiven, there is nothing we can do for them.

And why John said don't pray for that.

Be blessed.

I agree with your post but I'm still not understanding what sin would not lead to death. Romans 6:23 says the wages (what we get in return) of sin is death. He didn't offer a list of sins that do not qualify.

 

[WIP]

This is the kinda thing one needs a big bag of potato chips for, and I have such a bag.

Back........................mmmmm

Well it seems to me that accepting anything from the tree of knowledge of good or evil doesn't actually lead to death. Well you have to first pick the fruit from the tree (That's like accepting something that's good or evil) At this point you're fine, but it's untill you eat the fruit itself you're no longer fine.

This could be the sin that doesn't lead to death, to accept the forbidden fruit but not to eat of it.

Well that's all I got, now I've have to clean the grease off my phone.

Can you provide an example of accepting the forbidden fruit but not eating or partaking of it?

 

[WIP]

I hope I'm not being overly dense. Please have patience with me as I try to make sense of this.

 

[iLOVE]

This is confusing to me. How is someone saved and yet rejecting Christ? And, if rejecting Christ leads to death then how are they still saved?

The scripture says it like this, "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Romans 8:7

The Holy Spirit works exclusively within the realm of the Finished Work of Christ. This means that He works entirely within the parameters which are defined by the Cross (Romans 8:2, 11).

The Holy Spirit requires that our Faith be anchored solely in the Cross of Christ, because the price was paid at the Cross. When our Faith is properly placed, in other words, that the Cross is ever the object of our Faith, the Holy Spirit will then work mightily within our lives (Romans 6:3-5; 8:1).

The object of our faith without exception must be Christ and the Cross. Paul said "We preach Christ crucified" (1 Cor. 1:23).

Not understanding the Cross as it regards Sanctification, the object of faith for most Christians is something else entirely, which the Holy Spirit can never honor. For instance, millions make the object of their faith the confession of certain Scriptures, and the reciting of them over and over again, thinking that this somehow will move God to action. While the memorization of Scriptures is very good (and should be done by every Believer), still, the act of doing such will not bring about victory whatsoever in the heart and life of the Believer. The reason is simple:

When the Believer 's object of faith is in such, it means it's not in Christ and the Cross, which means the Holy Spirit will not honor such. He honors Christ and the Christ Alone! This must never be forgotten.

 

[jocor]

I agree with your post but I'm still not understanding what sin would not lead to death. Romans 6:23 says the wages (what we get in return) of sin is death. He didn't offer a list of sins that do not qualify.

Romans 6:23 pertains to unbelievers. You sin, you die. Sins that are "not unto death" pertain to believers. You sin, you repent, your cleansed. Unbelievers do not have that cleansing. Therefore, they will die. Believers have that cleansing through Yeshua. Therefore, they we live.

 

[WIP]

Romans 6:23 pertains to unbelievers. You sin, you die. Sins that are "not unto death" pertain to believers. You sin, you repent, your cleansed. Unbelievers do not have that cleansing. Therefore, they will die. Believers have that cleansing through Yeshua. Therefore, they we live.

Ah, thank you. This adds some clarity.

 

[Edward]

The scripture says it like this, "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Romans 8:7

The Holy Spirit works exclusively within the realm of the Finished Work of Christ. This means that He works entirely within the parameters which are defined by the Cross (Romans 8:2, 11).

The Holy Spirit requires that our Faith be anchored solely in the Cross of Christ, because the price was paid at the Cross. When our Faith is properly placed, in other words, that the Cross is ever the object of our Faith, the Holy Spirit will then work mightily within our lives (Romans 6:3-5; 8:1).

The object of our faith without exception must be Christ and the Cross. Paul said "We preach Christ crucified" (1 Cor. 1:23).

Not understanding the Cross as it regards Sanctification, the object of faith for most Christians is something else entirely, which the Holy Spirit can never honor. For instance, millions make the object of their faith the confession of certain Scriptures, and the reciting of them over and over again, thinking that this somehow will move God to action. While the memorization of Scriptures is very good (and should be done by every Believer), still, the act of doing such will not bring about victory whatsoever in the heart and life of the Believer. The reason is simple:

When the Believer 's object of faith is in such, it means it's not in Christ and the Cross, which means the Holy Spirit will not honor such. He honors Christ and the Christ Alone! This must never be forgotten.

Amen Brother. I'd give up everything in the world to have a family like that.

 

[HBEtechnician]

Can you provide an example of accepting the forbidden fruit but not eating or partaking of it?

The forbidden fruit is just the aberration of non desire, when one sees their non desire (As in the story of adam and eve) as a need then it becomes a want. When one is using their want they are eating off the tree of knowledge of good and evil, good (Positive) and evil (Negative) Eating from want will set any of your human faculties as either positive or a negative, in the case of adam and eve it was seeing shame as a negative. (7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.) All human faculties have a 0 state, a state where they are neither positive or negative, but setting them either way causes your faculty to die.

Extra note: As for partaking in the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, being tempted to see one of your faculties as a positive or negative could be considered a sin that does not lead to death.

 

[Eugene]

I believe the sin unto death is one of two things. One is the sin of unbelief. Any believer who no longer believes Yeshua is the promised Messiah and Savior of the world and ends up renouncing him cannot be renewed unto repentance no matter how much he/she is prayed for. Therefore, they are doomed to eternal death for trampling on the blood that saved them. We should not pray for such people because once you renounce Yeshua, there is no hope (Heb 6:4-8).
The other would be blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
All other sins would not be unto death.

jocor
I’ve got serious reservations on your analogy of a sin unto death of a believer being something of permanent separation with God, such as the unforgivable sin of no repentance to those that partook of all the miracles of the Holy Spirit, heard the word of God, and then turned back short of eternal life. (Heb 6:6)
There is but one way to our Father and that is through Jesus Christ. (Act 4:12)

Now I’ll present three such incidents of scripture I believe to be the sin into death, and a fourth that could have been.
Ananias lying to the Holy Spirit. (Act 5:4)
Sapphira tempting the Holy Spirit. (Act 5:9)

Moses’ unbelief. (Num 20:12) Your thought of condemnation of the one not believing has to be seen in the appearance of Moses with Elias on the mount of transfiguration. (Mat 17:2-3)
(Deut 32:51) die in the mount whither thou goest up, and be gathered unto thy people; as Aaron thy brother died in mount Hor, and was gathered unto his people:
(Deut 32:51) Because ye trespassed against me among the children of Israel at the waters of Meribah-Kadesh, in the wilderness of Zin; because ye sanctified me not in the midst of the children of Israel.

The fourth would have been shown us in:
1 Cor 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
1 Cor 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh . . .
But then here the man evidently repented, and Paul showed grace.
2 Cor 2:6 Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many.
2 Cor 2:7 So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow.
2 Cor 2:8 Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him.