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Romans 7:13 - 25 A Saved Paul or Unsaved Paul?

Chopper

Chopper

Member
Traditionally, Pentecostals say unsaved. Traditionally Baptists say saved. Which one is right? I will try and defend that Paul was saved.

Paul presents himself with a double self in these verses. In vs 13, 14 Paul looks back to his unconverted life. Since Paul was a devout Pharisee, seeking to obey the Law before his conversion, it is easier to understand these verses. The clause, "sold under sin" (KJV) describes an unregenerate person; but sin also resides in a believer, who is still subject to sin's penalty. As a result, indwelling sin continues to seek to claim what it considers its property even after one has become a Christian. Paul is describing his experience as a believer at this time. (Warren Wiersbe)

We all have two natures: These two natures are at war within us. The believers mind, will, and body can be controlled either by the old nature or the new nature, either by the flesh or the Spirit. Paul cannot, in his own power, resist his indwelling sin nature. In and of himself repeatedly experiences defeat and frustration. Paul knew, as an unbeliever, that since he had a sinful nature, the Law is bound to arouse that nature.

The conflict here (vs 19,20) described between a self that desires to do good and a self that in spite of this does evil, cannot be the struggles between consciences and passions in the unsaved, because the description given of this "desire to do good" in 7:22 is certainly a saved person.

Larry Richards, "The teachers Commentary" says "What does it take for us to live victoriously? How do we experience the flow of the divine power? Paul's answer was simple, "sin shall not be your master, because you are not under Law, but under Grace". Paul throws his hands in the air and exclaims "Who will deliver me" no one other than Jesus Christ.

Praise God for Chapter eight! Our Hero is Jesus and the fact that He sent us His Spirit to live in us with His nature. Col. 2:5 "let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus" (KJV) is the answer. Chapter eight instructs us to be led by the Spirit! With the mind of Jesus and being led by the Spirit, we will live very fruitful lives to the glory of God.
 
Rev_13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
 
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Chopper said:
Traditionally, Pentecostals say unsaved. Traditionally Baptists say saved. Which one is right? I will try and defend that Paul was saved.

Paul presents himself with a double self in these verses. In vs 13, 14 Paul looks back to his unconverted life. Since Paul was a devout Pharisee, seeking to obey the Law before his conversion, it is easier to understand these verses. The clause, "sold under sin" (KJV) describes an unregenerate person; but sin also resides in a believer, who is still subject to sin's penalty. As a result, indwelling sin continues to seek to claim what it considers its property even after one has become a Christian. Paul is describing his experience as a believer at this time. (Warren Wiersbe)

We all have two natures: These two natures are at war within us. The believers mind, will, and body can be controlled either by the old nature or the new nature, either by the flesh or the Spirit. Paul cannot, in his own power, resist his indwelling sin nature. In and of himself repeatedly experiences defeat and frustration. Paul knew, as an unbeliever, that since he had a sinful nature, the Law is bound to arouse that nature.

The conflict here (vs 19,20) described between a self that desires to do good and a self that in spite of this does evil, cannot be the struggles between consciences and passions in the unsaved, because the description given of this "desire to do good" in 7:22 is certainly a saved person.

Larry Richards, "The teachers Commentary" says "What does it take for us to live victoriously? How do we experience the flow of the divine power? Paul's answer was simple, "sin shall not be your master, because you are not under Law, but under Grace". Paul throws his hands in the air and exclaims "Who will deliver me" no one other than Jesus Christ.

Praise God for Chapter eight! Our Hero is Jesus and the fact that He sent us His Spirit to live in us with His nature. Col. 2:5 "let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus" (KJV) is the answer. Chapter eight instructs us to be led by the Spirit! With the mind of Jesus and being led by the Spirit, we will live very fruitful lives to the glory of God.
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Hi chopper,

You said that Paul was not able to resist his indwelling sin nature, yet he says in another passage that he beats his body into submission.

26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
(1Co 9:26-27 KJV)

I would submit that Paul is explaining life under the Mosaic Law in this section. In chapter 7 Paul is addressing Jewish believers, he says for I speak to those who know the Law. He contrasts the Law of God (Mosaic) vs faith in Christ in chapter 8. He also speaks of "another law" in chapter 7 which I believe is a reference to sin.
 
Butch5 said:
Hi chopper,

You said that Paul was not able to resist his indwelling sin nature, yet he says in another passage that he beats his body into submission.

26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
(1Co 9:26-27 KJV)

I would submit that Paul is explaining life under the Mosaic Law in this section. In chapter 7 Paul is addressing Jewish believers, he says for I speak to those who know the Law. He contrasts the Law of God (Mosaic) vs faith in Christ in chapter 8. He also speaks of "another law" in chapter 7 which I believe is a reference to sin.
Click to expand...

You're absolutely right my friend, My thread was to show Pauls' double self. He presents an unsaved Paul in one place and a saved Paul in another. It does seem strange to me that Chapter seven would be written that way. One has to study this Chapter very slow and mark down when he is referring to lost and saved. His main thrust is; no power over sin without Jesus, all power with Jesus and His Spirit walk.
 
:sorry
Chopper said:
In the mind of God. :)
Click to expand...
Yes, but accepting that God knew we as individuals would be saved, is different than we believing that we as individuals were never unsaved, for logically this would mean that prior to our conversion we did not need Jesus, because we were already saved. Instead perhaps it's better to believe that the efficacy of Jesus' work extends both forward and backwards to the ends of time, both from the time of the Cross, and at the individual level from the time of our personal conversion.

I agree with you that Paul was saved, and really I only made that offhand post because I wanted to try out this new system.o_O
 
In principle, you're right. In reality, even though God, being omniscient, knew the outcome of my Salvation, did in no way remove the Adam effect of sin on my life. God also, in His omniscience, Knew the day of my deliverance....I hadn't thought of Jesus' sacrifice being effective back wards, in theory you're right except the completion of said sacrifice would only take place at the time of my reception of that sacrifice.

In truth, we were as unsaved as everyone else. The fact of predestination does not in any way negate the fact of a sin nature prior to conversion. If it were not for irresistible grace, or effectual calling, I could have rejected Jesus and remained outside of His provision.
 
there is no chance for that St. Paul turn out to be unsaved - at least the half of the scripture of the New Testament has been written by him which fact is not the only proof for that

Blessings
 
JCitoL said:
there is no chance for that St. Paul turn out to be unsaved - at least the half of the scripture of the New Testament has been written by him which fact is not the only proof for that

Blessings
Click to expand...

I don't think anyone thought Paul was unsaved. o_O The conclusion of this discourse was, "Who was going to save him from the flesh nature? He stated "Jesus Christ" Of course Paul was saved. :coke
 
No chance? It does seem unlikely, doesn't it. Looking back we can see that this guy was chosen, that he was appointed as a "Sent One" in a very official capacity (Apostle) and that he was an Overcomer.

But then? When we look at what Paul saw? Through his eyes... He saw sin. He saw and asked three times regarding what he termed "the thorn in his flesh". That brother did not claim to have crossed the finish line but declared boldly that he would run the race with that very idea in mind. Me? I'm still waiting to be allowed the honor of having my blood spilled for righteousness sake (heaven help me). I came close once. Our battle against sin has a very determined course.

What was that cost we counted so long ago? And what were the instructions given? There was something about a Roof mentioned, right? It good for all to consider these things.

Cordially,
Sparrow
 
Sparrowhawke said:
No chance? It does seem unlikely, doesn't it. Looking back we can see that this guy was chosen, that he was appointed as a "Sent One" in a very official capacity (Apostle) and that he was an Overcomer.

But then? When we look at what Paul saw? Through his eyes... He saw sin. He saw and asked three times regarding what he termed "the thorn in his flesh". That brother did not claim to have crossed the finish line but declared boldly that he would run the race with that very idea in mind. Me? I'm still waiting to be allowed the honor of having my blood spilled for righteousness sake (heaven help me). I came close once. Our battle against sin has a very determined course.

What was that cost we counted so long ago? And what were the instructions given? There was something about a Roof mentioned, right? It good for all to consider these things.

Cordially,
Sparrow
Click to expand...

Consider is right Brother.
 
god calls things that be not as all ready existing christ died once for all we except salavation christ is not crucifyed over and over best not to read the word carnally best read spiritually paul had revelation of how salvation worked thats why he said by the holy spirit saved called equipped before he was knit together in his mothers womb it makes no difference what men have to say about the things of god (he is not going to change so you will have too)
 
dc.apostello said:
god calls things that be not as all ready existing christ died once for all we except salavation christ is not crucifyed over and over best not to read the word carnally best read spiritually paul had revelation of how salvation worked thats why he said by the holy spirit saved called equipped before he was knit together in his mothers womb it makes no difference what men have to say about the things of god (he is not going to change so you will have too)
Click to expand...

Right.
 
Chopper said:
You're absolutely right my friend, My thread was to show Pauls' double self. He presents an unsaved Paul in one place and a saved Paul in another. It does seem strange to me that Chapter seven would be written that way. One has to study this Chapter very slow and mark down when he is referring to lost and saved. His main thrust is; no power over sin without Jesus, all power with Jesus and His Spirit walk.
Click to expand...


Another thing to keep in mind here is that Paul is addressing Jewish believers in Romans 7.
 
Butch5 said:
Another thing to keep in mind here is that Paul is addressing Jewish believers in Romans 7.
Click to expand...
just looked at your web site :1john 1v1 no christians mentioned there .........the bethren.......were first called christian at antioch........who did the calling and why????? there started the lie ....please note it does not say god called them christian nor the holy spirit so who and why
 
dc.apostello said:
just looked at your web site :1john 1v1 no christians mentioned there .........the bethren.......were first called christian at antioch........who did the calling and why????? there started the lie ....please note it does not say god called them christian nor the holy spirit so who and why
Click to expand...

What are you talking about?
 
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