Romans 7:13 - 25 A Saved Paul or Unsaved Paul?

[dc.apostello]

What are you talking about?

that which was from the begining......what god established from the begining a spiritlual people called out ones its the world who gives name to groups as a point of reference so their carnal minds can handle things ...me i am a believer in the lord jesus christ ...sorry didyou not write you web page?

 

[eddif]

You're absolutely right my friend, My thread was to show Pauls' double self. He presents an unsaved Paul in one place and a saved Paul in another. It does seem strange to me that Chapter seven would be written that way. One has to study this Chapter very slow and mark down when he is referring to lost and saved. His main thrust is; no power over sin without Jesus, all power with Jesus and His Spirit walk.

Do I dare make comments?

eddif's definition of chopping-- rightly dividing the word of God, not divining the meaning of the Word but placing all comments about a subject in its correct pile. Reckon that works? You are doing a good thing.

So you are looking at the double / dual nature pile of information?

In one sense there may be several states of Paul?
1. His existence before he was brought before God shortly after birth.
2. His existence before his Bar Mitzvah. (As a Mississippi feller I may not know much about all this)
3. His existence before he met Jesus.
4. His existence after meeting Jesus
5. His existence after receiving revelations
6. Others ?

Could his existence under the Law have a dual nature? The law seems to admit to the need to offer a sacrifice for sins. If this is true would not the sin of the flesh be covered by the Law and its ordinances and commandments (shadows of things to come)? Would not the actions under the Law point out sins of the flesh? Righteousness ultimately comes from belief in Jesus (IMHO).

In the light of these thoughts, could we look at your comments about dual nature under the Law? Might we look at the flesh of David and the heart of David? I really do not know how to divide all this right now. I would hope that the heart of David was in better shape than his flesh. Dual nature (hindsight)?

I do often look at Romans 7:25 and see the actions in the flesh and the mind of Christ as being areas of a dual nature. A lot of folks beat on me about using all this as an excuse to sin. I do not teach eating things offered to idols or to commit fornication. Revelation 2:14 There is a difference in personal sin we fight and the open blatant practice of sin and teaching others to do so. Revelation 2:20 is another example (Jezebel teaching wrong things).

I hope we can discuss dual / double self. I hate I see this through a glass darkly.

eddif





i

 

[Chopper]

Do I dare make comments?

eddif's definition of chopping-- rightly dividing the word of God, not divining the meaning of the Word but placing all comments about a subject in its correct pile. Reckon that works? You are doing a good thing.

So you are looking at the double / dual nature pile of information?

In one sense there may be several states of Paul?
1. His existence before he was brought before God shortly after birth.
2. His existence before his Bar Mitzvah. (As a Mississippi feller I may not know much about all this)
3. His existence before he met Jesus.
4. His existence after meeting Jesus
5. His existence after receiving revelations
6. Others ?

Could his existence under the Law have a dual nature? The law seems to admit to the need to offer a sacrifice for sins. If this is true would not the sin of the flesh be covered by the Law and its ordinances and commandments (shadows of things to come)? Would not the actions under the Law point out sins of the flesh? Righteousness ultimately comes from belief in Jesus (IMHO).

In the light of these thoughts, could we look at your comments about dual nature under the Law? Might we look at the flesh of David and the heart of David? I really do not know how to divide all this right now. I would hope that the heart of David was in better shape than his flesh. Dual nature (hindsight)?

I do often look at Romans 7:25 and see the actions in the flesh and the mind of Christ as being areas of a dual nature. A lot of folks beat on me about using all this as an excuse to sin. I do not teach eating things offered to idols or to commit fornication. Revelation 2:14 There is a difference in personal sin we fight and the open blatant practice of sin and teaching others to do so. Revelation 2:20 is another example (Jezebel teaching wrong things).

I hope we can discuss dual / double self. I hate I see this through a glass darkly.

eddif





i

Thank you my Brother, for your post. There are many opinions on what 7:25 is teaching. Some say that because the flesh has not been redeemed, it is still alive. I adhere to this opinion as being Biblical. The solution to living the Law of God in the mind is, The verses in Chapter eight. verses 5 - 8 speak of setting the mind. That my friend is the answer. As believers in the Christ, because of the power of the Holy Spirit, We naturally tend towards the Law of God, which for our discussion, would be the fruit of the Spirit. Whatever we "set our mind" on, that is what we will do, whether good or bad.

So as you can see, we have the option to use our new nature and do good, or our old nature which has died in Jesus, we can resurrect that old dead nature, set our mind on something that God would consider sin, and indulge in something of the "flesh". Our duel nature responds to what we set our minds on.

Hope this answers your post, Love in Christ Jesus my Brother.

 

[eddif]

Hi chopper,

You said that Paul was not able to resist his indwelling sin nature, yet he says in another passage that he beats his body into submission.

26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
(1Co 9:26-27 KJV)

I would submit that Paul is explaining life under the Mosaic Law in this section. In chapter 7 Paul is addressing Jewish believers, he says for I speak to those who know the Law. He contrasts the Law of God (Mosaic) vs faith in Christ in chapter 8. He also speaks of "another law" in chapter 7 which I believe is a reference to sin.

Galatians 2:20
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Who is the I who does the work?

IMHO. If I read the Law it is often about the I / me / we / people, but in the NT it tells how we get it done. The credit goes to God in the NT. The born again person has the mind of Christ available to strive against the flesh by the Holy Spirit. The old carnal mind now sees the kingdom. The desperately wicked heart is forgiven by the sacrifice that Jesus made.

So yes we are involved, but he works in us to get things done. It may seem like a bunch of double talk, but when you talk to a dual nature you have talk to the mind and talk to the flesh. You have scriptures directed to the mind and scriptures directed toward the flesh. On the last day the flesh will be changed (carnal flesh does no go directly into eternity, but is changed in a moment).

It is complex beyond belief, but with the OPs concept of the complex nature of man, we see a little clearer. God is complex and IMHO we are made in his image (complex ourselves).

The love of God (IMHO ) is complex too. Jude 21,22,23 Compassion is shown in OT and NT. Fear is shown in OT and NT. Jesus approached Peter in a positive and an honest negative way (my words). There are compassion statements, and fear type passages.

When we read through scripture (IMHO) we should divide the word and apply it to the appropriate area.

Individuals can have a particular area, but then a general balance (not lukewarm) is needed too.

Then what can a jerk from Mississippi know.
eddif

 

[Tristan]

Why is this a question? Paul was very clear in Romans that this isn't something we should worry about.

"But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) “or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim);" -Romans 10:6-8

 

[eddif]

Romans 7:24
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

I guess a question seeking a revealed answer ?

eddif

 

[Tristan]

Romans 7:24
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

I guess a question seeking a revealed answer ?

eddif

A question with a brief answer:

Jesus can deliver him, and anyone else.

 

[Butch5]

Galatians 2:20
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Who is the I who does the work?

IMHO. If I read the Law it is often about the I / me / we / people, but in the NT it tells how we get it done. The credit goes to God in the NT. The born again person has the mind of Christ available to strive against the flesh by the Holy Spirit. The old carnal mind now sees the kingdom. The desperately wicked heart is forgiven by the sacrifice that Jesus made.

So yes we are involved, but he works in us to get things done. It may seem like a bunch of double talk, but when you talk to a dual nature you have talk to the mind and talk to the flesh. You have scriptures directed to the mind and scriptures directed toward the flesh. On the last day the flesh will be changed (carnal flesh does no go directly into eternity, but is changed in a moment).

It is complex beyond belief, but with the OPs concept of the complex nature of man, we see a little clearer. God is complex and IMHO we are made in his image (complex ourselves).

The love of God (IMHO ) is complex too. Jude 21,22,23 Compassion is shown in OT and NT. Fear is shown in OT and NT. Jesus approached Peter in a positive and an honest negative way (my words). There are compassion statements, and fear type passages.

When we read through scripture (IMHO) we should divide the word and apply it to the appropriate area.

Individuals can have a particular area, but then a general balance (not lukewarm) is needed too.

Then what can a jerk from Mississippi know.
eddif

Hi eddif,

I don't believe it's very complex at all. I think theologians want us to believe it is. The Scriptures were written to people who were for the most part illiterate. Jesus said the kingdom would go to those with faith as a child. Paul said, "I" beat my body into submission. He didn't say, the Holy Spirit or me and the Holy Spirit beat my body into submission, he said "I".

 

[eddif]

Hi eddif,

I don't believe it's very complex at all. I think theologians want us to believe it is. The Scriptures were written to people who were for the most part illiterate. Jesus said the kingdom would go to those with faith as a child. Paul said, "I" beat my body into submission. He didn't say, the Holy Spirit or me and the Holy Spirit beat my body into submission, he said "I".

Hey very interesting.

The Greek language is not very simple to a redneck Mississippi feller. Once upon a time I took about 4 lessons in Greek (just enough to have no idea what I am talking about). LOL

Underneath / inside of verbs ( if those are good descriptive words) the text has all sorts of verbal language information. The problem I ran into was each denomination had grammar rules that partially caused Greek study to agree with their differing theology.

So my intelligence (what little there is) was not going to come from language courses. Hebrew and Greek can help, but the Holy Spirit is needed to guide us for sure.

The revelation hidden in nature is just where I wound up. Most just brush across Romans 1:19-20 and sigh at dawns and dusks. Deep things are carried in the natural creation of God.

The two natures good and evil IMHO are seen in the tree of good and evil, clean unclean, good works and bad works, etc. Thanks to Jesus the curse part of the law was born by Him. Thanks to the Holy Spirit credit can be given to God for good works.

Oxen are a type of bishops and are a help in symbolism understanding.

Dual nature is our topic. Do we part the hoof and chew the cud?

eddif

 

[eddif]

Thank you my Brother, for your post. There are many opinions on what 7:25 is teaching. Some say that because the flesh has not been redeemed, it is still alive. I adhere to this opinion as being Biblical. The solution to living the Law of God in the mind is, The verses in Chapter eight. verses 5 - 8 speak of setting the mind. That my friend is the answer. As believers in the Christ, because of the power of the Holy Spirit, We naturally tend towards the Law of God, which for our discussion, would be the fruit of the Spirit. Whatever we "set our mind" on, that is what we will do, whether good or bad.

So as you can see, we have the option to use our new nature and do good, or our old nature which has died in Jesus, we can resurrect that old dead nature, set our mind on something that God would consider sin, and indulge in something of the "flesh". Our duel nature responds to what we set our minds on.

Hope this answers your post, Love in Christ Jesus my Brother.

Romans 8:5-8
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

"setting the mind"

Chopper
I guess we may have differing views on how we are set up in the flesh / spirit / mind (or your favorite bible words describing man). My carnal mind / body (?) knows I desire bunches of chocolate, but working in me is the thought of good needed diet, exercise etc. If I allow the higher thoughts to dominate I do right. The flesh is still near (sometimes tempted by evil). The body and mind exist at the same time. Kind of a wretched existence. The man part of us is no fun.

The born again part of us (spirit of the mind) has at least two influences. The old body / carnal mind / spiritual powers, and the God part that stood at the door to come into me (new birth Ephesians 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;)

I have no problem with seeing everything going on at the same time. Jesus interceding, (to the Father) for me in heaven will at the last day bring me to the throne and open the books (book of life especially). Our belief in Christ will change the vile body. So I guess I am one of the folks of which you spoke.

Israel some times was bad while they carried the Ark. I see us as being in a body and carrying around something holy. We preach not ourselves but Jesus. Dual nature at one time? I have no problem, because the resurrection has not happened yet. The final dealing with the flesh is at the last day. The assurance of heaven is carried with us in our new birth mind. Heaven is by faith in Jesus. I confess my sins, He is faithful to forgive and cleanse. Judgement day will tell the tale. Some things of the flesh may burn on that day.


The jerk from Mississippi
eddif

 

[Chopper]

Romans 8:5-8
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

"setting the mind"

Chopper
I guess we may have differing views on how we are set up in the flesh / spirit / mind (or your favorite bible words describing man). My carnal mind / body (?) knows I desire bunches of chocolate, but working in me is the thought of good needed diet, exercise etc. If I allow the higher thoughts to dominate I do right. The flesh is still near (sometimes tempted by evil). The body and mind exist at the same time. Kind of a wretched existence. The man part of us is no fun.

The born again part of us (spirit of the mind) has at least two influences. The old body / carnal mind / spiritual powers, and the God part that stood at the door to come into me (new birth Ephesians 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;)

I have no problem with seeing everything going on at the same time. Jesus interceding, (to the Father) for me in heaven will at the last day bring me to the throne and open the books (book of life especially). Our belief in Christ will change the vile body. So I guess I am one of the folks of which you spoke.

Israel some times was bad while they carried the Ark. I see us as being in a body and carrying around something holy. We preach not ourselves but Jesus. Dual nature at one time? I have no problem, because the resurrection has not happened yet. The final dealing with the flesh is at the last day. The assurance of heaven is carried with us in our new birth mind. Heaven is by faith in Jesus. I confess my sins, He is faithful to forgive and cleanse. Judgement day will tell the tale. Some things of the flesh may burn on that day.


The jerk from Mississippi
eddif

Differing views are a very good school of learning. Thank you very much for your post. Since you and I don't know it all, our communication is vital for our ongoing education in the things of God. Blessings, my Brother.

 

[farouk]

Isn't Paul talking about indwelling sin in believers? in other words, we can have the victory over sin by faith day by day, but it is a matter of daily, spiritual warfare, as the believer takes up his or her cross daily, as Luke records.

Blessings.

 

[Chopper]

Isn't Paul talking about indwelling sin in believers? in other words, we can have the victory over sin by faith day by day, but it is a matter of daily, spiritual warfare, as the believer takes up his or her cross daily, as Luke records.

Blessings.

You are right my friend, it is a daily battle as you say. Our problem, IMO, is we don't stay focused on our responsibility before Jesus to live according to the fruit of the Spirit. As long as we stay focused, we will be living to please our Master, sin really is something that stays on the outside of our lives as long as we are focused on walking by, and living by, and thinking by, the Holy Spirit.

Thank you for your post, that shows me that you are very sensitive to the doctrine of righteousness in Christ Jesus. It's a pleasure to know you through the means of this forum. In Jesus, I love you.

 

[farouk]

You are right my friend, it is a daily battle as you say. Our problem, IMO, is we don't stay focused on our responsibility before Jesus to live according to the fruit of the Spirit. As long as we stay focused, we will be living to please our Master, sin really is something that stays on the outside of our lives as long as we are focused on walking by, and living by, and thinking by, the Holy Spirit.

Thank you for your post, that shows me that you are very sensitive to the doctrine of righteousness in Christ Jesus. It's a pleasure to know you through the means of this forum. In Jesus, I love you.

Stated differently I guess, it's the positional/conditional distinction again: positionally, the believer in the Lord Jesus is perfectly justified, for time and for eternity. In terms of his or her condition, however, s/he must daily practise sanctification.

 

[Chopper]

Stated differently I guess, it's the positional/conditional distinction again: positionally, the believer in the Lord Jesus is perfectly justified, for time and for eternity. In terms of his or her condition, however, s/he must daily practise sanctification.

Right! I think sometimes when I fall, it's because I have taken my eyes/mind off from who I am in Christ. You may have something in the daily knowledge of sanctification....Again, it's what we are focused on.

 

[eddif]

I appreciate this thread.

Reading others comments pushes me on to hear what the scriptures actually say. I have had to dump a lot of my false thoughts over the years. Working out salvation with fear and trembling is different from working out salvation from a carnal mind or wicked heart (takes the spirit to help).

Hi chopper,

You said that Paul was not able to resist his indwelling sin nature, yet he says in another passage that he beats his body into submission.

26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
(1Co 9:26-27 KJV)

I would submit that Paul is explaining life under the Mosaic Law in this section. In chapter 7 Paul is addressing Jewish believers, he says for I speak to those who know the Law. He contrasts the Law of God (Mosaic) vs faith in Christ in chapter 8. He also speaks of "another law" in chapter 7 which I believe is a reference to sin.

The above post helped me consider options of bringing the flesh under submission.

1. Rely on the indwelling new birth reliance of Christ crucified and the Holy Spirit.
2. Depend on works under the Law.

We can depend on grace through faith, or circumcision and keeping the Law of Moses. The Law used lawfully is always a factor, but understanding (lawfully) is tough. IMHO we have a decision he helps us make.

The flesh loves credit for doing the work, and hates to give credit to anything / anyone else. This whole thread about dual nature pushes us to look at deep motives (we often do not get very deep). Paul's statement ( yet not I but Christ who dwells in me) tends to give credit to God.

So hopefully it is not about what we do, but what was done for us, and in us if we open the door to His plea and knock.

Dual nature! Wow. Which nature will dominate? I am so glad that at the last day there will be eternal change. Right now there is help.

With the mind I do well. With the flesh I do not do so well.

The backwoods jerk from Mississippi.
eddif

 

[Chopper]

I have always understood that scripture as Farouk also does, I believe. Paul is speaking in PRESENT tense for both situations.

What conclusion do you come up with?

 

[Chopper]

I believe Paul was talking about the co-existing struggle we all have of letting the Holy Spirit have control or "shoving Him into the closet" while we follow our carnal inclinations; sin.

I agree, that's probably the closest to what Romans 7 is teaching....Thank you.