Rome can not be the beast

[Shilohsfoal]

Rev 17;11
And the beast that was,and is not,even he is the eighth,and is of the seven,and goeth into perdition.

Because the beast didnt exist when John wrote this in 100ad.As of 100ad it is not.It had existed before 100ad because it was.

If you believed Rome was the beast then the people who taught you this was wrong.That simple.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

You need to look for another city wherein lay seven hills(seven heads of the beast).
Try this one

Oh Jerusalem,Jerusalem.thou that killest the prophets,and stonest them which are sent unto thee,
The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Jesus told it like it is thousands of years before the fact.

 

[jasoncran]

You need to look for another city wherein lay seven hills(seven heads of the beast).
Try this one

Oh Jerusalem,Jerusalem.thou that killest the prophets,and stonest them which are sent unto thee,
The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Jesus told it like it is thousands of years before the fact.

that was in reference to these man in the past,
isiah,zechariah and host of others.

not that the jews wont do it again but since then (ad 70) we so called christians have killed more jews then they did christians or the prophets.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

You need to look for another city wherein lay seven hills(seven heads of the beast).
Try this one

Oh Jerusalem,Jerusalem.thou that killest the prophets,and stonest them which are sent unto thee,
The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Jesus told it like it is thousands of years before the fact.

that was in reference to these man in the past,
isiah,zechariah and host of others.

not that the jews wont do it again but since then (ad 70) we so called christians have killed more jews then they did christians or the prophets.

Even if time changes,the word of God does not.You cant change the word of God.
Mt 23;35
That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth,from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zechariah son of Barachias,whom ye slew between the temple and the alter.

Rev 18;24
And in her was found the blood of prophets,and of saints,and of all that were slain upon the earth.


You need to drive this fact in your ....head.
If Jesus says that Jerusalem is resonsible for all the righteous blood shed upon the earth ,then it is.You are wrong and Jesus is right.

 

[jasoncran]

i guess that fact that these religions also hate us arent of the antichrist,

hunduism,buddism, and islam.

and others.

basic english

o thou jerusalem that killest(that is in the past tense) the prophets, kill is as present and can be future perfect tense in that middle english.

rev 18; isnt connected to only jersusalem. i'm not saying that they wont but the fact is that we in the protestant church and the catholic church are responsible for the deaths of the jews. calvin killed them, luther killed them. the rcc killed them in the inquistion.

do you deny this?


btw america has the most jews and yet since our founding have we persucuted the christians here, till recently (this isnt much of a persucution). we have rathered embraced the jew here and let him flourish and even helped set up isreal.


just becuase i or nor vet see it your way doenst mean that we arent aware the isreal will be used by the anti-christ but the whole world will worship the beast and isreal aint the whole world.

its not even 25 miles at the widest point on the map.

 

[Vic C.]

Jerusalem (and it's inhabitants) isn't the beast, it's the harlot. The Bible drives this fact home over and over, especially the OT.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Jerusalem (and it's inhabitants) isn't the beast, it's the harlot. The Bible drives this fact home over and over, especially the OT.

Does the beast have seven heads?
What are those heads?

If you cant include the heads of the beast in the description of the beast ,then your going to lose a vital clue as to what the beast is.

Jerusalem sits upon the beast.
The beast is a kingdom.
That kingdom is the promised land.ROFLOL

The saints inherit that kingdom in Daniel 7;27.
It had always been promised to them.

 

[jasoncran]

the ot refers to the judah and isreal as harlots, see the books of jeremiah and especially ezekiel and hoshea.

that latter is an example of what isreal did to the lord when they a whorin after other gods.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

The muslims renderd thier dominion unto the beast that once was and was not.
That dominiuon was Jerusalem=the seven heads.

It is written the ten kings have recieved no kingdom as yet but theyt recieve power as kings for one hour with the beast.This means those ten muslim kings do not rule the entire empire as those beasts before them.They rule the devided kingdom(empire).They rule thier own countries alongside of the beast.

 

[jasoncran]

antichrist
anti= against
christ+god's choosen(messiah)

hmm the spirit of that is also in islam. or any religion, group or person that isnt saved.

he that isnt for me is agianst me.

that doesnt mean that islam or anyother cant or will be the beast but it neither denies them that either. we dont know what the anti-christ exaclty will be just some of his charachteristics.

visit china, india, and any muslim nation all speak up openly and you will see what manner of spirit works there, and i doubt that when the anti-christ rises those nations wont embrace him openly. and hate what he hates and love what he loves.

 

[Osgiliath]

If you believe that these seven hills are geographic in nature, then you can just as easily hypothesize the seven hills represent the seven continents on Earth (encompassing the whole Earth, global, etc.).

The 7 'hills' (7 heads) are symbolic of something else entirely, and not simply geographic terrain.

Revelation 13:1 And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.

Webster's - (Blasphemy)

a. A contemptuous or profane act, utterance, or writing concerning God or a sacred entity.
b. The act of claiming for oneself the attributes and rights of God.
c. Assuming the prerogatives of God.

What entities exist that are in the position to blaspheme God? Can a mound of dirt or rock blaspheme God?

Revelation 13 says that each head has a blasphemous name on it. This means the seven heads are religious in nature and usurp God's authority. According to Webster, blasphemy is defined as assuming the prerogatives of God.

The seven heads are called seven hills (or mountains) because in ancient times it was believed that deity lived in the mountains (high places, hills). Ancient temples or shrines were placed on prominent places such as hill or mountains.

Deuteronomy 12:2-4 "Destroy completely all the places on the high mountains and on the hills and under every spreading tree where the nations you are dispossessing worship their gods. Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and burn their Asherah poles in the fire; cut down the idols of their gods and wipe out their names from those places. You must not worship the Lord your God in their way."

Psalms 15:1 "Lord, who may dwell in your sanctuary? Who may live on your holy hill?"

Psalms 43:3,4 Send forth your light and your truth, let them guide me; let them bring me to your holy mountain, to the place where you dwell. Then will I go to the altar of God, to God, my joy and my delight. I will praise you with the harp, O God, my God."

Daniel 9:20 While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel and making my request to the Lord my God for his holy hill.

The seven heads are also called seven hills because they represent the source of authority for each religion in the world. Seven blasphemous religious systems that include ALL peoples, multitudes, nations, and languages (including Catholicism and Protestantism that have apostatized).

The beast will be a global church/state theocracy - a religious/political union (horns = political - heads = religious), and will be headed by the lamb-like beast (dragon). During that time, the 'religious' side of this union will once again become dominant, and will be a repeat and magnified rendering of the Dark Ages - and we all know what happened then.

 

[Ashua]

There is a major problem with this idea that Jerusalem is the beast.

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. -Revelation 19:20

The beast is destroyed. God has promised throughout the Tanakh that his people Israel will be his people forever. He will never leave them nor forsake them. He made an eternal covenant with the.

Anyways, you who say Jerusalem and Israel will be cast down. Please explain two chapters of Zechariah. I happen to find these two chapters among my personal favorites. Theyre written so well. Read them I dare you. I used blue to draw parelells to Revelation in chapter 14 I think I used blue once in chapter 12. thats not meant to be from revelation I used it for an arbitrary reason.

Zechariah 12

1The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

2Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.

3And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

4In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.

5And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.

6In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.

7The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.

8In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.

9And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon him whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

11In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

12And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;

13The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;

14All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.


Zechariah 14

1Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

6And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

7But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

8And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

10All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

11And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

12And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

13And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.

14And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.

15And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.

16And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

19This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

20In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

21Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

 

[Theofilus]

If you believe that these seven hills are geographic in nature, then you can just as easily hypothesize the seven hills represent the seven continents on Earth (encompassing the whole Earth, global, etc.).

The 7 'hills' (7 heads) are symbolic of something else entirely, and not simply geographic terrain.

The angel told John that it was 7 hills. Why would he say that if it didn't represent 7 hills? Are you saying that when a prophet in the Bible sees a vision and has it explained to him, then the explination is just another symbol and we need to figure out the "true" meaning ourselves? Pharao saw some wheat and some cows. Joseph explained that they symbolized 7 years of plenty and 7 years of famine. Are you saying that they represented something else altogether and we are left to figure it out on our own? When Jesus said that the sower was God and the seed was the word of God and that the various types of ground were people who recieved God's word in various ways, did he really mean something else? There are many dreams, visions, revelations and parables in the Bible that are immediately explained. Are you saying that all those explinations are themselves symbols and that rather than explaining his meaning clearly, God leaves us to just figure it out on our own? Or does that just apply to this vision?

I don't think God would do that to us. If God's word says 7 hill, then it's 7 hills. If He had meant 7 false religions or 7 continents or 7 sources of power or something else, then He would have said so.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Theofilus

The angel told John that it was 7 hills. Why would he say that if it didn't represent 7 hills?

If these 'seven heads' are seven 'literal' hills, then explain how a 'hill' (an elevated mound of dirt and rock) receives a fatal wound, but then is healed

Revelation 13:3 "One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast."

And then explain how a literal 'hill' can blaspheme God.

Revelation 13:1 "And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name"

If you re-read my post, you will notice that God DID INDEED show us what 'hills' represent throughout His Word.

 

[Theofilus]

If these 'seven heads' are seven 'literal' hills, then explain how a 'hill' (an elevated mound of dirt and rock) receives a fatal wound, but then is healed

Revelation 13:3 "One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast."

There are two prophecies here and you're getting them confused.

This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for a little while. The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction. (Rev. 17:9-11)

Note that the angel did not say "the seven kingdoms have seven hills" or "the hills represent the sources of power of seven kings". He says "they are also seven kings" indicating that there are two separate symbolisms. He doesn't connect the hills and the kingdoms in any way. These are two separate prophecies, one political and the other religious. The hills are part of the religious prophecy. The wound is part of the political prophecy. It's one of the kings that receives the wound, not one of the hills.

And then explain how a literal 'hill' can blaspheme God.

Revelation 13:1 "And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name"

Where does it say that they blaspheme God? There's a difference between having a blasphemous name and blaspheming.

If you re-read my post, you will notice that God DID INDEED show us what 'hills' represent throughout His Word.

And if you re-read my post, you might not miss my entire point. When someone explains a symbol, he doesn't do it with another symbol. What if Joseph had only heard one of Pharaoh's dreams and said: "The seven heads of grain represent seven cows"? Or what if Daniel had said: "The head of gold represents the first head of a scarlet beast, which in turn represents a hill, which represents a source of power for a kingdom, which the head of the beast also represents"? Joseph told Pharaoh that the sheaves represented years. He didn't give him another symbol. Daniel said that the golden head represented the Babylonian empire, not another symbol. The angel said that the heads represented hills. The hills don't represent anything. They are just hills.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Theophilus

The hills are part of the religious prophecy.

Well, at least we agree there. ;)

 

[Ashua]

http://planetpreterist.com/content/reve ... l-part-one

 

[David505]

These are two separate prophecies, one political and the other religious.

Thanks Theofilus,

That's an excellent point.

The imagery in Reveleation 13 and 17 is a prophetic tableau: an illustration that combines symbols to tell a story along a past and future timeline.

As examples, the imagery combines historical symbols from Daniel 7 (lion, bear, leopard) with future symbolism (harlot). The intertwined symbolism tells a story spanning thousands of years and into the future.

For comparison, Revelation 12 illustrates another prophetic tableau (woman clothed with the sun) telling another story.

I'm sure if we all wrote a long dissertation about the symbolism in question, we would come up with a variety of conclusions. However, the point you make ("these are two separate prophecies, one political and the other religious) is foundational.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Theofilus

These are two separate prophecies, one political and the other religious.

How can they be two 'separate' prophecies? They are representing THE SAME THING: 'The 7 Heads of The Beast!' In other words, 7 Heads have to satisfy ALL of the specifications that describe them - which are:

*1. Each head has a blasphemous name
*2. One of these seven heads received a fatal wound, but it had been healed
*3. They are seven hills (see my Wed Aug 4 post)
*4. They are seven kings (religions have leaders and 'subjects')
*5. Five have fallen....one is....and one is yet to come, but when he does come, he must remain A LITTLE WHILE.

The angel spoke to John around A.D. 95. As of that date, 5 heads/hills/kings had fallen. The 7 religions of the world are:

Atheism
Paganism
Judaism
The ancient faith of Arabs who descended from Ishmael - later to become Islam in A.D. 600
Eastern Mysticism
Catholicism
Protestantism

The teachings of Jesus during His ministry on Earth exposed and confirmed that five religious systems were false (fallen) religions. The five fallen religious systems are:

1. Atheism
2. Paganism
3. Judaism
4. Faith of ancient Arabs - later to become Islam
5. Eastern Mysticism

The head "that is" - and the one to come that will last a little while are:

6. Catholicism
7. Protestantism

When John was given this prophecy in about A.D. 95, the newly formed Christian religion John himself was a charter member of would eventually become Catholicism. That was the head 'that is'. Catholicism was the 6th head and it received a fatal wound when Napoleon's forces finally overthrew the blasphemous papacy in the French Revolution - allowing Protestantism (the 7th head that would last for a little while) to flourish, until it too apostatized and displayed a blasphemous name on it's head. The head that was wounded has been healing quite nicely ever since the Lateran Treaty in 1929. The R.C.C. is NOT the beast; it's simply ONE of the 7 heads of the beast - a beast that includes ALL of the world's religions.

The one (head) that 'is yet to come' is Protestantism (didn't exist yet in A.D. 95), that would only last 'a little while.'

When you consider ALL five of the specifications the 7 heads have to meet, the only possible conclusion is that they are the 7 blasphemous religious systems of the world. These are not 'separate' prophecies. The 7 Heads must meet ALL of these specifications to be properly identified. You can't pick, choose, and separate 'a head,' though you can describe it's distinguishing characteristics.

As far as 'political vs. religious' - THE TEN HORNS are political; THE SEVEN HEADS are religious.

 

[David505]

Thanks Osgiliath,

Like I said, I'm sure if we all wrote a long dissertation about the symbolism in question, we would come up with a variety of conclusions. Here’s something to consider.

Daniel saw four beasts come up from the sea as follows:

3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.
5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
Daniel 7: 3-7

According to the interpretation, these four beasts symbolize four *kings (kingdoms) as follows:

16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.
17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
Daniel 7: 16-17

In sum, the lion, bear, **leopard (four heads), and diverse beast total up seven heads.

Compare John:

1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
Revelation 13: 1-2

To summarize: Same imagery, but in reverse order, indicating Daniel and John saw the same seven-headed beast rise from the sea; however, from different time perspectives. Daniel observed from the past. John observed from the future.

Thus, John’s seven-headed beast may also symbolize Daniel’s four kingdoms.

Notes:

*In the Hebrew language, “king†and “kingdom†can be interchangeable depending upon the context.

**The leopard symbolizes a quartet of powers under a single banner, similar to Daniel’s Media-Persian dualism.