Sabbath Breaking and New Creation

[Drew]

In the past, I have claimed that Jesus indeed promoted breaking of the Sabbath when he confronts the Pharisees in Matt 12. I now have heard of an explanation that makes some sense out of why He would do this.

The explanation is this: Jesus' entry into the world initiated a stage of new creation - of God actually working in the world and remaking it - people and the rest of nature. One could imagine that Jesus was sending the following message by arguing that it was OK to work on the Sabbath (as I think He does argue in Matt 12): God indeed rested on the 7th day. But in order to undo the sin of Adam and its profound effect on creation, He needs to do more work. And with Jesus' entry into the world, this work has begun. So the Sabbath constraint is now at odds with its original symbolic intent - since God has started his new creation in Christ, the age of the Sabbath has passed away - God is "back in business" in specific respect to reworking the fundamental fabric of the world and hence the Sabbath not be observed anymore.

One flaw of this argument would appear to be "it shall be forever" qualifier that is expressed in Exodus re the nature of the Sabbath.

 

[unred typo]

quote by Drew on Mon Oct 01, 2007 1:53 pm:

In the past, I have claimed that Jesus indeed promoted breaking of the Sabbath when he confronts the Pharisees in Matt 12. I now have heard of an explanation that makes some sense out of why He would do this.

The explanation is this: Jesus' entry into the world initiated a stage of new creation - of God actually working in the world and remaking it - people and the rest of nature. One could imagine that Jesus was sending the following message by arguing that it was OK to work on the Sabbath (as I think He does argue in Matt 12): God indeed rested on the 7th day. But in order to undo the sin of Adam and its profound effect on creation, He needs to do more work. And with Jesus' entry into the world, this work has begun. So the Sabbath constraint is now at odds with its original symbolic intent - since God has started his new creation in Christ, the age of the Sabbath has passed away - God is "back in business" in specific respect to reworking the fundamental fabric of the world and hence the Sabbath not be observed anymore.

One flaw of this argument would appear to be "it shall be forever" qualifier that is expressed in Exodus re the nature of the Sabbath.

Interesting ideas, as usual, with your posts. The only problem is, I really like the idea of having a day off dedicated to reading and relaxing with the Bible in hand! It’s hard to do with lives so busy and everyone has something that needs help doing, so I have to keep quoting “it’s better to do good than evil†on the seventh day.

Are you thinking of the verse that says, “My father works hitherto, and I work�

I am of the opinion that the Sanhedrin was the problem of the Sabbath strictness and it was meant to be a rest, not a burden. I think it fits into the law of love if it is a time when masters couldn’t force their workers to work seven days a week with no reprieve, or husbands; their wives, or parents; their children. Was it Paul that said that there remains a rest unto the people of God? ‘Work for the night is coming when no man can work’ and ‘strive to enter into that rest,’ also come to mind. I’d love to stay and discuss this but I have work to do… :wink:

 

[stranger]

In the past, I have claimed that Jesus indeed promoted breaking of the Sabbath when he confronts the Pharisees in Matt 12. I now have heard of an explanation that makes some sense out of why He would do this.

The explanation is this: Jesus' entry into the world initiated a stage of new creation - of God actually working in the world and remaking it - people and the rest of nature. One could imagine that Jesus was sending the following message by arguing that it was OK to work on the Sabbath (as I think He does argue in Matt 12): God indeed rested on the 7th day. But in order to undo the sin of Adam and its profound effect on creation, He needs to do more work. And with Jesus' entry into the world, this work has begun. So the Sabbath constraint is now at odds with its original symbolic intent - since God has started his new creation in Christ, the age of the Sabbath has passed away - God is "back in business" in specific respect to reworking the fundamental fabric of the world and hence the Sabbath not be observed anymore.

One flaw of this argument would appear to be "it shall be forever" qualifier that is expressed in Exodus re the nature of the Sabbath.

Hi Drew,

The 'old' creation seen as completed in seven days - did develope a problem. If this problem is viewed as 'incompleteness', for arguments sake, then it would require a faithful obsevance of the Sabbath to bring the (old) creation to the intended rest. Such fits the scenario when Jesus was laid in the tomb. This involved more than merely the penalty for sin as it has to do with the entire creation eg seen in the words 'cursed is the ground because of you'. . .

Continuing then we come to the resurrection - and this could be seen as the first day of the new creation which as you point out is ongoing "since God has started his new creation in Christ". For consistency I would anticipate that the new creation would likewise be brought to rest in a Sabbath (yet future). I think Hebrews 3 and 4 are important in affirming that there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God which is a rest that is entered into rather than something that is observed. If such a Sabbath is entered into, only then could it be observed, which stated negatively suggests that if the Sabbath rest is not enterred into then it cannot be observed.

 

[handy]

I've a few thoughts on this subject which are admittedly non-conformist.

Here's my take on the Sabbath and why the day isn't important, and yet it remains forever:

I believe that the Sabbath rest spoken of in Hebrews 3 and 4, as well as the 'new creation' are all one in the same, namely our salvation. We become a new creation when we are 'in' Christ, or as 2 Corinthians 5:17 puts it, "If any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come." This is a classic 'salvation' verse, as it speaks to the new person we become upon our regeneration.

I'm not a scholar, but I have been told that the language in this verse is more transitory, and that in the original language we get the idea that old things are both passed away and are passing away and new things have come and are coming, which makes a lot of sense. So, this fits right in with the idea that with Jesus comes a totally new creation, which I believe will culminate with the new heaven and the new earth where we, in our resurrected and eternal forms will rest forever.

Back to the Sabbath then and Hebrews 3 and 4. The context of this passage is the time when spies were sent into the Promised Land. The spies were basically freaked out by the daunting warriors that inhabited the Land, only two spies gave a good report, that it was a good land, readily taken if God was on their side. The Israelites wallowed in doubt and fear, and were cursed by God to wander in the Wilderness until that generation died off. With the exception of the two spies, no one in the camp that day ever entered into the Promised Land. Why not? Because of unbelief that led to disobedience.

Now the writer of Hebrews uses this historical setting to make a point regarding our salvation: That there still remains a Sabbath rest for God's people. While God had sanctified the seventh day, this particular rest doesn't refer to the seventh day, because it's also referenced as the 'rest' the Israelites would enter into, when they entered into the Promised Land. This particular Sabbath rest is a rest we enter into if we believe and act upon that believe through obedience.

Again, this gets us back to the transitory nature of the new creation, it's something that has both happened and is happening. According to 4:3 we who believe enter the rest and also according to 4:11 we need to remain diligent and obedient to enter the rest.

Which, I think is a fairly clear example of our salvation, which I believe is both an immediate event and yet on-going process. I am saved, I am being saved. (But, that's fodder for another thread.)

If we think of the 'Sabbath rest' in Hebrews as our salvation rather than a day of the week, it makes sense that Jesus wasn't particularly hung up on what one did on Saturday and why there seems to be such a change from an emphasis on Sabbath rest and Sunday gathering and communion. It's can also explain why Paul told us not to let anyone be our judge regarding a Sabbath day, or that one man can put one day ahead of the others, another man can regard everyday alike. The day of the week is no longer significant, the new creation that has formed and is being formed is what we need to be diligent to continue on in.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Heidi]

In the past, I have claimed that Jesus indeed promoted breaking of the Sabbath when he confronts the Pharisees in Matt 12. I now have heard of an explanation that makes some sense out of why He would do this.

The explanation is this: Jesus' entry into the world initiated a stage of new creation - of God actually working in the world and remaking it - people and the rest of nature. One could imagine that Jesus was sending the following message by arguing that it was OK to work on the Sabbath (as I think He does argue in Matt 12): God indeed rested on the 7th day. But in order to undo the sin of Adam and its profound effect on creation, He needs to do more work. And with Jesus' entry into the world, this work has begun. So the Sabbath constraint is now at odds with its original symbolic intent - since God has started his new creation in Christ, the age of the Sabbath has passed away - God is "back in business" in specific respect to reworking the fundamental fabric of the world and hence the Sabbath not be observed anymore.

One flaw of this argument would appear to be "it shall be forever" qualifier that is expressed in Exodus re the nature of the Sabbath.

:o Sorry, but Jesus brought rest from our works, not more work. And that's how people who think that works save, are still doing what the Jews still do who also thought that Jesus broke the Sabbath. :

So I'm not going to argue with people who call themselves Christians but don't know Jesus Christ or what he stood for. You have to receive the Holy Spirit to know what "rest from your own works" means and until you do, you'll make up your own Jesus.
:roll:

 

[unred typo]

In the past, I have claimed that Jesus indeed promoted breaking of the Sabbath when he confronts the Pharisees in Matt 12. I now have heard of an explanation that makes some sense out of why He would do this.

The explanation is this: Jesus' entry into the world initiated a stage of new creation - of God actually working in the world and remaking it - people and the rest of nature. One could imagine that Jesus was sending the following message by arguing that it was OK to work on the Sabbath (as I think He does argue in Matt 12): God indeed rested on the 7th day. But in order to undo the sin of Adam and its profound effect on creation, He needs to do more work. And with Jesus' entry into the world, this work has begun. So the Sabbath constraint is now at odds with its original symbolic intent - since God has started his new creation in Christ, the age of the Sabbath has passed away - God is "back in business" in specific respect to reworking the fundamental fabric of the world and hence the Sabbath not be observed anymore.

One flaw of this argument would appear to be "it shall be forever" qualifier that is expressed in Exodus re the nature of the Sabbath.

:o Sorry, but Jesus brought rest from our works, not more work. And that's how people who think that works save, are still doing what the Jews still do who also thought that Jesus broke the Sabbath. :

So I'm not going to argue with people who call themselves Christians but don't know Jesus Christ or what he stood for. You have to receive the Holy Spirit to know what "rest from your own works" means and until you do, you'll make up your own Jesus.
:roll:

The people of God have work to do, Heidi. Read this and try to understand what is being said:

8For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9There remains therefore a rest to the people of God.
10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

The work that we rest from is the works of the law: circumcision, sacrifices, ordinances about food and cleanliness, apparel, holy days, and other such things. The works that we are to labor to do are the works of faith and love that we do because we have faith in God and believe that he will reward us in the ages to come with a place of rest and joy.

 

[Heidi]

You need to read Hebrews 4:1-9, Luke 7:41 and Matthew 11:28 to see what coming to Jesus for rest means. And until you do, you will be no different than the Jews. You also don't udnerstand scripture or the Holy Spirit well enough to converse with until you know where the desire to give back to God what he gave us comes from; and it's not effort, it's love and joy. :roll:

Does it take effort and work for you to love your spouse of family? :o Does it take work to do good things for them? If so, I'm sorry for you because you don't have love in your heart. There's nothing I'd rather do than serve my Lord because I love him, not because it's work to do so.

 

[Drew]

I believe that Jesus intentionally broke the Sabbath. He did this to underscore that, in and through Him, God was beginning the project of reclaiming the world. How is this done? Through new creation. Jesus' breaking of the Sabbath tells the Jews that God's "rest" is now done and He is "rolling up his sleeves" and is, through the Holy Spirit, beginning the task of redeeming the world whose creation He rested from on the seventh day.

 

[stranger]

I believe that Jesus intentionally broke the Sabbath. He did this to underscore that, in and through Him, God was beginning the project of reclaiming the world. How is this done? Through new creation. Jesus' breaking of the Sabbath tells the Jews that God's "rest" is now done and He is "rolling up his sleeves" and is, through the Holy Spirit, beginning the task of redeeming the world whose creation He rested from on the seventh day.

Drew,

Our entering His rest is not done - until we do we remain in the wilderness.

 

[Drew]

I believe that Jesus intentionally broke the Sabbath. He did this to underscore that, in and through Him, God was beginning the project of reclaiming the world. How is this done? Through new creation. Jesus' breaking of the Sabbath tells the Jews that God's "rest" is now done and He is "rolling up his sleeves" and is, through the Holy Spirit, beginning the task of redeeming the world whose creation He rested from on the seventh day.

Drew,

Our entering His rest is not done - until we do we remain in the wilderness.

Hello stranger:

I am not sure what you mean. What I am trying to assert is that Jesus' breaking of the Sabbath sends a message about what God is up to - He is no longer resting and since the Sabbath symbolized (originally) God's resting from his labours, to break the Sabbath is suggetive of a resumption of labours on the part of God - the new creation.

 

[stranger]

Drew wrote:

I am not sure what you mean. What I am trying to assert is that Jesus' breaking of the Sabbath sends a message about what God is up to - He is no longer resting and since the Sabbath symbolized (originally) God's resting from his labours, to break the Sabbath is suggetive of a resumption of labours on the part of God - the new creation.

Hi Drew,

The difficulty in saying that Jesus broke the Sabbath as opposed to misconceptions of what the Sabbath was really about would be breaking the Law. But I think the resumption of labours is fair enough in that the (old) creation has a continuity of sorts with the new creation. Also it is reasonable to suppose that the work of redemption continues until the purposes of redemption are complete. The point about our entering the prepared Sabbath rest is found in Hebrews 3 and 4 - "there therefore remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God" and we are enjoined to strive to enter it.

 

[Heidi]

I believe that Jesus intentionally broke the Sabbath. He did this to underscore that, in and through Him, God was beginning the project of reclaiming the world. How is this done? Through new creation. Jesus' breaking of the Sabbath tells the Jews that God's "rest" is now done and He is "rolling up his sleeves" and is, through the Holy Spirit, beginning the task of redeeming the world whose creation He rested from on the seventh day.

No, Jesus ws showing us what the Sabbath actually is!! It's not "teachings that are but rules taugh by men". It's not just a law. I'ts Jesus Christ himself because love is the fulfillment of he law.

So Jesus was telling us what obeying the Sabbath means and it's not seeing the bible as a rulebook. It's love. So Jesus healed on the Sabbath showing us that keeping the sabbath means loving our neighbor which fulfills all the laws and the commandments as Paul tells us in Romans 13:10.

So Jesus did not break the Sabbath. That is a lie of Satan.

 

[Vic C.]

No, Jesus ws showing us what the Sabbath actually is!! It's not "teachings that are but rules taugh by men". It's not just a law. I'ts Jesus Christ himself because love is the fulfillment of he law.

So Jesus was telling us what obeying the Sabbath means and it's not seeing the bible as a rulebook. It's love. So Jesus healed on the Sabbath showing us that keeping the sabbath means loving our neighbor which fulfills all the laws and the commandments as Paul tells us in Romans 13:10.

So Jesus did not break the Sabbath. That is a lie of Satan.

I agree. Stranger is correct too, Jesus didn't not break the Sabbath; He cleared up the misconceptions and legalisms that had been built up arond the true meaning of the Sabbath. It is rest from physical work, not rest from doing the Lord's work. The work that Jesus did WAS the work of His Father, work He had been doing since He was 12:

Luke 2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?

It is also a day set aside for revering the Lord and His creation; a dat if Holy reflection.

 

[Heidi]

No, Jesus ws showing us what the Sabbath actually is!! It's not "teachings that are but rules taugh by men". It's not just a law. I'ts Jesus Christ himself because love is the fulfillment of he law.

So Jesus was telling us what obeying the Sabbath means and it's not seeing the bible as a rulebook. It's love. So Jesus healed on the Sabbath showing us that keeping the sabbath means loving our neighbor which fulfills all the laws and the commandments as Paul tells us in Romans 13:10.

So Jesus did not break the Sabbath. That is a lie of Satan.

I agree. Stranger is correct too, Jesus didn't not break the Sabbath; He cleared up the misconceptions and legalisms that had been built up arond the true meaning of the Sabbath. It is rest from physical work, not rest from doing the Lord's work. The work that Jesus did WAS the work of His Father, work He had been doing since He was 12:

Luke 2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?

It is also a day set aside for revering the Lord and His creation; a dat if Holy reflection.

Yup. :D But as Paul says, since the OT Sabbath was only a shadow of the reality that Jesus is the Sabbath, then the Sabbath is no longer a day of the week. Therefore, as Paul says, some see one day as more special than others, others see every day alike. Let every man be convinced in his own mind.

 

[Drew]

So Jesus did not break the Sabbath. [/size]That is a lie of Satan.

This is an entirely inappropriate remark in a discussion where the rest of us are not resorting to this kind of tedious ad hominem. Arguing that Jesus did not break the Sabbath is one thing, suggesting that those who disagree with you about this are dupes of Satan is, of course, unacceptable.

 

[Drew]

I Jesus didn't not break the Sabbath; He cleared up the misconceptions and legalisms that had been built up arond the true meaning of the Sabbath. It is rest from physical work, not rest from doing the Lord's work.

.
I think that this is a false distinction - thinking that one can draw a line between the "Lord's work" and "regular work" is to implicitly buy into the belief that there is the "God" part of our lives and the "non-God" part. If Jesus was drawing the distinction that you claim that He is, it would make Him collude with this false distinction by endorsing the notion that one's activities can be split into these 2 categories.

I agree that the following text shows that Jesus is indeed teaching that the Law really is founded on something more fundamental - love.

When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, "Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath." He answered, "Haven't you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated breadâ€â€which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. Or haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent?

However, He still broke the Law. And He clearly endorses the actions of David while at the same time clearly stating that they were not lawful. I do not think Jesus could have been clearer - the Law sometimes should be broken. But the Law is what it is, and to not follow its letter is to break it. I am not saying that to do so is always sin, since, as Jesus states later in Matthew, the Law is founded on love. But to not follow the letter of the Law is what it means to break the Law. And please note that I am clearly stating that there is indeed something more fundamental that undergirds the Law.

However, I still think that Jesus wanted to be seen as breaking the Law for a very specific purpose. I have alluded to what I think this purpose is, and I hope to expand on this in a later post.

 

[Heidi]

So Jesus did not break the Sabbath. [/size]That is a lie of Satan.

This is an entirely inappropriate remark in a discussion where the rest of us are not resorting to this kind of tedious ad hominem. Arguing that Jesus did not break the Sabbath is one thing, suggesting that those who disagree with you about this are dupes of Satan is, of course, unacceptable.

It is a lie of Satan that Jesus broke the Sabbath because Jesus did not sin. Breaking the Sabbath is breaking a commandment which is a sin against God which Jesus never did. So claiming that Jesus sinned is a lie of Satan.

So since I'm more concerned when one offends Jesus than if one himself is offended, I will always expose the lies of Satan and stand up for Jesus. We are all capable of being deceived by Satan and any good Christian recognizes this and is thankful when it is pointed out to him so he can be corrected and repent.

 

[Drew]

So since I'm more concerned when one offends Jesus than if one himself is offended, I will always expose the lies of Satan and stand up for Jesus. We are all capable of being deceived by Satan and any good Christian recognizes this and is thankful when it is pointed out to him so he can be corrected and repent.

And of course we all know how you are responding to the correction that you have been getting for years from Christians and non-Christians alike concerning your blatant misrepresentations of the theory of evolution.

Does "a giraffe has never given birth to a human being" ring any bells?

 

[Heidi]

So since I'm more concerned when one offends Jesus than if one himself is offended, I will always expose the lies of Satan and stand up for Jesus. We are all capable of being deceived by Satan and any good Christian recognizes this and is thankful when it is pointed out to him so he can be corrected and repent.

And of course we all know how you are responding to the correction that you have been getting for years from Christians and non-Christians alike concerning your blatant misrepresentations of the theory of evolution.

Does "a giraffe has never given birth to a human being" ring any bells?

Sorry, but giraffes don't give birth to human descendants any more than apes do. : But this thread isn't about evolution. So if you want to attack my understanding of evolution, then you need to do it in the Christianity and Science forums.This thread is about the Sabbath.

 

[Drew]

This thread is about the Sabbath.

Indeed it is.

Please consider exactly how Jesus responds to the criticism that He and his disciples were breaking the Sabbath:

Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath." He answered, "Haven't you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated breadâ€â€which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. Or haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent?

Is this the way you would expect Jesus to answer if He believed his disciple were not breaking the Law? I doubt it. Jesus plainly asserts that David and his companions broke the Law - I cannot see how He could make this more evident than by directly stating it as He does. It is critical to note that Jesus does not suggest that David was breaking an overly legalistic human interpretation of the Law - He is stating that they were breaking a Law that comes from God. Here is the relevant text from Leviticus 24. This is not a "human law" that David breaks - it is a law that comes straight from the mouth of God:

The LORD said to Moses, "Command the Israelites to bring you clear oil of pressed olives for the light so that the lamps may be kept burning continually. Outside the curtain of the Testimony in the Tent of Meeting, Aaron is to tend the lamps before the LORD from evening till morning, continually. This is to be a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. The lamps on the pure gold lampstand before the LORD must be tended continually.

"Take fine flour and bake twelve loaves of bread, using two-tenths of an ephah for each loaf. Set them in two rows, six in each row, on the table of pure gold before the LORD. Along each row put some pure incense as a memorial portion to represent the bread and to be an offering made to the LORD by fire. This bread is to be set out before the LORD regularly, Sabbath after Sabbath, on behalf of the Israelites, as a lasting covenant. It belongs to Aaron and his sons, who are to eat it in a holy place, because it is a most holy part of their regular share of the offerings made to the LORD by fire.

Then he strongly implies (in the next sentence) that Sabbath breakers can, under certain circumstances, be held innocent. So Jesus is being clear as clear can be: to break the Sabbath does not always involve sin.

What He is not saying is that the Sabbath is not being broken by David, or by the priests, or by He and his disciples.

Why do Christains bend the plain meaning of this text any try to say that Jesus is not breaking the Law?

I suggest this happens because people are of the mind that "breaking the law" equals "sin", and since Jesus never sinned, He obviously could not have broken the Law. And so, like those who distort the plain sense of the "The dead know nothing" text in Ecclesiastes, backflips are performed to argue that Jesus is not justifiably breaking the Law (which is what I think is going on), but rather that He is correcting a human distortion of it.

However, sin can exist without the Law. Adam ate the fruit before the Law had been given. Here is what Paul has to say:

Romans 5:13
before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam,

Romans 4:15
where there is no law there is no transgression.

Transgression is not the same thing as sin.

So please do not think you are denying Jesus' sinlessness if you accept the plain reading of this text - that Jesus defends the breaking of the Sabbath, both on the part of He and his disciples and on the part of David and the priests. Sin was in the world before the Law.