Sabbath Breaking and New Creation

[Guest]

Drew - aren't you then saying that Jesus did commit one sin, but he was legally justified to do it - so it really doesn't count?

 

[Drew]

Drew - aren't you then saying that Jesus did commit one sin, but he was legally justified to do it - so it really doesn't count?

Hello. I am not saying that Jesus committed sin. I believe that He lead an entirely sinless life. I am saying that breaking the Law is not always sin and that Jesus did break the Law (as did David before Him and the priests also - all are "innocent" even though they broke a Law). I believe I agree with the rest who claim that there something more fundamental and "deeper" behind the Law.

If I park in an a no parking zone to deliver a bleeding man to the emergency ward am I breaking a law. Yes I am? Am I sinning? No. If I decide to park in the same spot to go see a movie, I am both breaking the law and sinning.

It is simply impossible (or at least ridiculously complicated) to construct a "no parking" law that accounts for all legitimate exceptions. So there are indeed times when we break laws without sinning.

However, I think Jesus was making a much bigger point than this when He broke the Sabbath law. By breaking the Sabbath, He is sending us a poweful message about issues of "new creation" and the identity of the true people of Israel. I hope to post on that shortly,

 

[Guest]

Drew - aren't you then saying that Jesus did commit one sin, but he was legally justified to do it - so it really doesn't count?

Hello. I am not saying that Jesus committed sin. I believe that He lead an entirely sinless life. I am saying that breaking the Law is not always sin and that Jesus did break the Law (as did David before Him and the priests also - all are "innocent" even though they broke a Law). I believe I agree with the rest who claim that there something more fundamental and "deeper" behind the Law.

If I park in an a no parking zone to deliver a bleeding man to the emergency ward am I breaking a law. Yes I am? Am I sinning? No. If I decide to park in the same spot to go see a movie, I am both breaking the law and sinning.

It is simply impossible (or at least ridiculously complicated) to construct a "no parking" law that accounts for all legitimate exceptions. So there are indeed times when we break laws without sinning.

However, I think Jesus was making a much bigger point than this when He broke the Sabbath law. By breaking the Sabbath, He is sending us a poweful message about issues of "new creation" and the identity of the true people of Israel. I hope to post on that shortly,

Here is the thing Drew - WE live under Grace because of Christ's death on the Cross.

Christ came as a FULFILLMENT of the Law so that we were not BOUND to the Law.

The question is - Did Christ live UNDER the Law or under GRACE?

 

[Drew]

Did Christ live UNDER the Law or under GRACE?

I do not understand what you mean by this question. I am simply claiming that Jesus broke the Sabbath law, this was not sin, and He meant to communicate some very central truths in breaking the Law.

First, I think that, by breaking the Sabbath, Jesus was saying that being an ethnic Israelite was not really the grounds for being a member of the covenant family. The Jews had developed the belief that being "the chosen people" meant that they, simply by virtue of birth, were guaranteed membership in God's family. This view needed to be corrected and one way to do this is to break one of the elements of the Law - the Sabbath - that marked the Jews out as a distinct ethnic group. In doing this, Jesus effectvely says "being born Jewish is not a free ticket into the family of God."

Another point that breaking the Sabbath may have made is to underscore that God has ceased his "rest" (7th day) and is very much back at work - this time implementing new creation.

Genesis begins with "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth". The gospel ofJohn has a strikingly similar opening statement: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning". Genesis describes 6 days of creative activity, and man is created on the 6th day. Notice what also happens on the 6th day of the week Jesus was crucified. Pilate tells the crowd: "Here is your king."

This is no co-incidence. Adam was created on the 6th day and the suffering Messiah is sent to the cross to rescue Adam's children from sin on that same 6th day. On the 7th day in Genesis, God rests from his labours. On the 7th day of the crucifixion week, Jesus rests in the tomb. And what does the eigth day bring? It brings new creation - the raising of Jesus from the dead at the breaking that first day of a new week is full of symbolism. God is back in the creation business. Now He will be turning sinners into "new creations" by the action of the Holy Spirit. The redemption of the cosmos is now underway. Heaven and Earth have overlapped in Christ and will continue to do so from that moment forward as the Holy Spirit works creatively in the world.

The Sabbath symbolized God's resting from his labours. Now, for the first time since the 6th day of creation - when Adam was created - God resumes creation (at least in a deep fundamental sense - I am, of course, not suggesting that God was inactive from Adam to Jesus - see next para). Jesus is the first fruit of the new creation. And, naturally enough, Jesus is raised on the first day.

So I think Jesus broke the Sabbath to underscore that a new age was dawning - one where God was back in the creation business. Adam's fall had intiated a long process of redemptive activity on the part of God beginning with the establishment of the covenant of Abraham as the means of solving the sin problem. The Law is given to Israel to begin the process of "luring sin out of the fabric of the cosmos" and accumulating it in one place - the nation of Israel. Sin is finally cornered in one man's flesh - the faithful Messiah Jesus and the terrible stroke is delivered - God condemns sin in Jesus flesh (Romans 8:3). It has taken all those years from the first Adam to the Second to break the power of sin. The long night of sin's dominion is over and God can now, and only now, begin the long process of transforming a cosmos now liberated from slavery to sin.

So it can truly be said that new creation begins with Easter morning. God is back in business. The Law has served its purpose and those parts of it which mark out Israel as a distinct people can now be respectfully retired - including the Sabbath. The Gentiles are now being grafted in, and the plan for Israel to be a light to the nations has been fulfilled - but of course not in the way the Jews expected. Gods' redemption now spreads to the whole world.

 

[Guest]

I guess I do not understand your linking the breaking of the sabbath and new creation.

It previous discussions, I understand that you believe everything is being "renewed". At some point in time everything will be made new - but things are not getting 'better'.

I will bow out of this discussion.

 

[Heidi]

Did Christ live UNDER the Law or under GRACE?

I do not understand what you mean by this question. I am simply claiming that Jesus broke the Sabbath law, this was not sin, and He meant to communicate some very central truths in breaking the Law.

First, I think that, by breaking the Sabbath, Jesus was saying that being an ethnic Israelite was not really the grounds for being a member of the covenant family. The Jews had developed the belief that being "the chosen people" meant that they, simply by virtue of birth, were guaranteed membership in God's family. This view needed to be corrected and one way to do this is to break one of the elements of the Law - the Sabbath - that marked the Jews out as a distinct ethnic group. In doing this, Jesus effectvely says "being born Jewish is not a free ticket into the family of God."

Another point that breaking the Sabbath may have made is to underscore that God has ceased his "rest" (7th day) and is very much back at work - this time implementing new creation.

Genesis begins with "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth". The gospel ofJohn has a strikingly similar opening statement: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning". Genesis describes 6 days of creative activity, and man is created on the 6th day. Notice what also happens on the 6th day of the week Jesus was crucified. Pilate tells the crowd: "Here is your king."

This is no co-incidence. Adam was created on the 6th day and the suffering Messiah is sent to the cross to rescue Adam's children from sin on that same 6th day. On the 7th day in Genesis, God rests from his labours. On the 7th day of the crucifixion week, Jesus rests in the tomb. And what does the eigth day bring? It brings new creation - the raising of Jesus from the dead at the breaking that first day of a new week is full of symbolism. God is back in the creation business. Now He will be turning sinners into "new creations" by the action of the Holy Spirit. The redemption of the cosmos is now underway. Heaven and Earth have overlapped in Christ and will continue to do so from that moment forward as the Holy Spirit works creatively in the world.

The Sabbath symbolized God's resting from his labours. Now, for the first time since the 6th day of creation - when Adam was created - God resumes creation (at least in a deep fundamental sense - I am, of course, not suggesting that God was inactive from Adam to Jesus - see next para). Jesus is the first fruit of the new creation. And, naturally enough, Jesus is raised on the first day.

So I think Jesus broke the Sabbath to underscore that a new age was dawning - one where God was back in the creation business. Adam's fall had intiated a long process of redemptive activity on the part of God beginning with the establishment of the covenant of Abraham as the means of solving the sin problem. The Law is given to Israel to begin the process of "luring sin out of the fabric of the cosmos" and accumulating it in one place - the nation of Israel. Sin is finally cornered in one man's flesh - the faithful Messiah Jesus and the terrible stroke is delivered - God condemns sin in Jesus flesh (Romans 8:3). It has taken all those years from the first Adam to the Second to break the power of sin. The long night of sin's dominion is over and God can now, and only now, begin the long process of transforming a cosmos now liberated from slavery to sin.

So it can truly be said that new creation begins with Easter morning. God is back in business. The Law has served its purpose and those parts of it which mark out Israel as a distinct people can now be respectfully retired - including the Sabbath. The Gentiles are now being grafted in, and the plan for Israel to be a light to the nations has been fulfilled - but of course not in the way the Jews expected. Gods' redemption now spreads to the whole world.

Considering that Jesus is the Sabbath as Hebrews 4:1-9, tells us, and you don't understand, Jesus can hardly break it! : You obviously don't understand that Jesus didn't abolish or break any laws, but fulfilled them. So until you learn who Jesus is, your posts are ridiculous & NWR.
:roll:

 

[Guest]

Considering that Jesus is the Sabbath as Hebrews 4:1-9, tells us, and you don't understand, Jesus can hardly break it! : You obviously don't understand that Jesus didn't abolish or break any laws, but fulfilled them. So until you learn who Jesus is, your posts are ridiculous & NWR.
:roll:

Disagreeing with Drew is one thing - but let's not have the personal attacks.

Try to keep it civil.

 

[Heidi]

Considering that Jesus is the Sabbath as Hebrews 4:1-9, tells us, and you don't understand, Jesus can hardly break it! : You obviously don't understand that Jesus didn't abolish or break any laws, but fulfilled them. So until you learn who Jesus is, your posts are ridiculous & NWR.
:roll:

Disagreeing with Drew is one thing - but let's not have the personal attacks.

Try to keep it civil.

Considering that I am personally attacked in almost every post and rarely is anyone warned for doing so, then it's very difficult to know what the rules are. Drew attacked my understanding of evolution in this thread when this thread has nothing to do with evolution. So until the rules apply to all, I have no clue what's accepted here and what isn't. Apparently my posts for standing up for Jesus aren't acceptable and the posts of others who blaspheme Jesus and personally attack others are acceptable. :o

But one thing I do know; I'm not ashamed of the truth and I hate to hear Jesus blasphemed on this forum or anywhere else. And claiming that he sinned by breaking the Sabbath is nothing but blasphemy. So if Christians were more loayal to Jesus than being afraid to offend someone who blasphemes Jesus, then our prioirities would be in order. Jesus put the truth before the praises of men and before the hurt feelings of those who reject him and so do I. If this forum does not, then it's a secular politically correct forum rather than a Christian forum that isn't afraid of the truth.

 

[Drew]

The good things about a written record is that incorrect accusations can be corrected.

Heidi wrote:

And claiming that he sinned by breaking the Sabbath is nothing but blasphemy

A post or two before she wrote this, I made a clear unambiguous statement about whether I believe that Jesus sinned:

I am not saying that Jesus committed sin. I believe that He lead an entirely sinless life

I will let the record respond to Heidi's claim.

 

[Heidi]

The good things about a written record is that incorrect accusations can be corrected.

Heidi wrote:

And claiming that he sinned by breaking the Sabbath is nothing but blasphemy

A post or two before she wrote this, I made a clear unambiguous statement about whether I believe that Jesus sinned:

I am not saying that Jesus committed sin. I believe that He lead an entirely sinless life

I will let the record respond to Heidi's claim.

That's a contradiction, friend. Breaking a Commandment is a sin. And honoring the Sabbath is a commandment. So you can't claim both things at once. So which is it? Did Jesus break the Sabbath, which is a sin, or was he sinless? :o

 

[Guest]

The good things about a written record is that incorrect accusations can be corrected.

Heidi wrote:

And claiming that he sinned by breaking the Sabbath is nothing but blasphemy

A post or two before she wrote this, I made a clear unambiguous statement about whether I believe that Jesus sinned:

I am not saying that Jesus committed sin. I believe that He lead an entirely sinless life

I will let the record respond to Heidi's claim.

That's a contradiction, friend. Breaking a Commandment is a sin. And honoring the Sabbath is a commandment. So you can't claim both things at once. So which is it? Did Jesus break the Sabbath, which is a sin, or was he sinless? :o

Heidi - I do not agree with Drew, however Drew does like to question that is considered orthrodox and attempt to make a logical arguement. I disagree with his approach, however - I do not believe that Drew is claiming that Jesus sinned.

Drew is attempting to present a legal arguement - that Christ was justified in breaking the Sabbath and therefore it cannot be considered sin.

Look at it this way - there are those who are deemed 'innocent" of killing someone - justifiable homocide. Legally this person is not a murderer. In the eyes of the law they are innocent of the crime.

Heidi - you should not base your actions on the actions of someone else. I know that you feel "persecuted" - however, I would not worry about other's actions - just your own. To be honest, you have no idea what other messages are sent to other people, do you?

 

[Drew]

That's a contradiction, friend. Breaking a Commandment is a sin. And honoring the Sabbath is a commandment. So you can't claim both things at once. So which is it? Did Jesus break the Sabbath, which is a sin, or was he sinless? :o

I will repeat the words of Jesus from Matthew 12:

Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath."
He answered, "Haven't you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated breadâ€â€which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5Or haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent?

Who is saying that David broke the law? Jesus is (not Drew). And I will let the reader decide what Jesus is implying about whether or not David sinned in this act. Jesus is more clear about the priests - they desecrate the day (which can only mean they break an element of the Law). What happens to them?

Jesus says that they are "innocent". I will leave it to the reader to decide whether Jesus believes these priests are sinning.

 

[Heidi]

That's a contradiction, friend. Breaking a Commandment is a sin. And honoring the Sabbath is a commandment. So you can't claim both things at once. So which is it? Did Jesus break the Sabbath, which is a sin, or was he sinless? :o

I will repeat the words of Jesus from Matthew 12:

Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath."
He answered, "Haven't you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated breadâ€â€which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5Or haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent?

Who is saying that David broke the law? Jesus is (not Drew). And I will let the reader decide what Jesus is implying about whether or not David sinned in this act. Jesus is more clear about the priests - they desecrate the day (which can only mean they break an element of the Law). What happens to them?

Jesus says that they are "innocent". I will leave it to the reader to decide whether Jesus believes these priests are sinning.

Apparently you agree with the Pharisees interpretation of what was lawful and what wasn't when the Pharisees had no clue what or who the Sabbath was.

Once again, the OT Sabbath was a shadow of what Jesus would do with his blood. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath because he is the Sabbath which the Pharisees didn't know and still don't. Since Jesus is the Sabbath, then if he breaks it, he would be casting out himself, which impossible.

So you need to read Hebrews 4;1-9 and Romans 13:8-10 to see who Jesus is and who the Sabbath is. And it is not what what the Pharises thought it was which were as Jesus says; "teachings that are but rules taught by men", it is coming to Jesus for rest from our own work as Hebrews 4:1-9 tells us.

So you are grossly incorrect when you say that Jesus broke the commandment of the Sabbath.

 

[unred typo]

Keep reading, Heidi. Hebrews 5:
8Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

10Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

11Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing you are dull of hearing.

Then jump ahead to James 1:

21Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

22But be you doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

23For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

24For he beholds himself, and goes his way, and straightway forgets what manner of man he was.

25But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continues therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Notice Hebrews is talking about resting from the law of ordinances and sacrifices. We are to believe what Jesus taught and continue in the perfect law of liberty he gave us and be doers of the word, not hearers only.

 

[Drew]

So you are grossly incorrect when you say that Jesus broke the commandment of the Sabbath.

Here is a relevant chunk Matthew 12 again:

"Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath."
He answered, "Haven't you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated breadâ€â€which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5Or haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent?

Did Jesus believe that David broke God's Law and not man's distortion of it? He must have. Why? Because we know from Lev 24 that the showbread law comes from God and it is clear and unambiguous:

The LORD said to Moses, "Command the Israelites to bring you clear oil of pressed olives for the light so that the lamps may be kept burning continually. Outside the curtain of the Testimony in the Tent of Meeting, Aaron is to tend the lamps before the LORD from evening till morning, continually. This is to be a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. The lamps on the pure gold lampstand before the LORD must be tended continually.

"Take fine flour and bake twelve loaves of bread, using two-tenths of an ephah [a] for each loaf. Set them in two rows, six in each row, on the table of pure gold before the LORD. Along each row put some pure incense as a memorial portion to represent the bread and to be an offering made to the LORD by fire. This bread is to be set out before the LORD regularly, Sabbath after Sabbath, on behalf of the Israelites, as a lasting covenant. It belongs to Aaron and his sons, who are to eat it in a holy place, because it is a most holy part of their regular share of the offerings made to the LORD by fire."

For David to eat the showbread is to eat something that belongs to someone else and commandment number 8 takes care of that "Thou shalt not steal".

So we are forced to conclude that Jesus is claiming that David broke God's Law.

In order to defend the "Jesus did not break the Sabbath because that would be sin" position, two possibilities are open to such a person:

1.Claim that David's breaking of God's Law was not sin;

2 Claim that David's breaking of the law was indeed sin and that Jesus is not doing something similar in respect to the Sabbath.

Position 1 obviously does not work - If it was not sin for David to break one of God's Laws, why would it be sin for Jesus to do so?

How about position 2? I do not think it works either but an argument will have to wait for another post.

 

[Heidi]

So you are grossly incorrect when you say that Jesus broke the commandment of the Sabbath.

Here is a relevant chunk Matthew 12 again:

"Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath."
He answered, "Haven't you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated breadâ€â€which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5Or haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent?

Did Jesus believe that David broke God's Law and not man's distortion of it? He must have. Why? Because we know from Lev 24 that the showbread law comes from God and it is clear and unambiguous:

The LORD said to Moses, "Command the Israelites to bring you clear oil of pressed olives for the light so that the lamps may be kept burning continually. Outside the curtain of the Testimony in the Tent of Meeting, Aaron is to tend the lamps before the LORD from evening till morning, continually. This is to be a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. The lamps on the pure gold lampstand before the LORD must be tended continually.

"Take fine flour and bake twelve loaves of bread, using two-tenths of an ephah [a] for each loaf. Set them in two rows, six in each row, on the table of pure gold before the LORD. Along each row put some pure incense as a memorial portion to represent the bread and to be an offering made to the LORD by fire. This bread is to be set out before the LORD regularly, Sabbath after Sabbath, on behalf of the Israelites, as a lasting covenant. It belongs to Aaron and his sons, who are to eat it in a holy place, because it is a most holy part of their regular share of the offerings made to the LORD by fire."

For David to eat the showbread is to eat something that belongs to someone else and commandment number 8 takes care of that "Thou shalt not steal".

So we are forced to conclude that Jesus is claiming that David broke God's Law.

In order to defend the "Jesus did not break the Sabbath because that would be sin" position, two possibilities are open to such a person:

1.Claim that David's breaking of God's Law was not sin;

2 Claim that David's breaking of the law was indeed sin and that Jesus is not doing something similar in respect to the Sabbath.

Position 1 obviously does not work - If it was not sin for David to break one of God's Laws, why would it be sin for Jesus to do so?

How about position 2? I do not think it works either but an argument will have to wait for another post.

Do you know what Jesus's response to the Pharisees was when they accused him of breaking the Sabbath? Did he agree with the Pharisees? :o No, he did not. He explained to them that love is what the Sabbath is all about, not "teachings that are but rules taught by men", which you & the Pharisees still see the bible as.

So I'm not going to argue with you about this. Paul tells us not to engage in "foolish and stupid" arguments (his words, not mine). And arguing with someone who doesn't understand who the Sabbath is or why Jesus healing on the Sabbath didn't break the Sabbath, is indeed engaging in foolish and stupid arguments.

 

[Drew]

Do you know what Jesus's response to the Pharisees was when they accused him of breaking the Sabbath? Did he agree with the Pharisees? :o No, he did not.

It is now time to back up your unfortunately harsh words with evidence.

Where, and I mean precisely where, does Jesus disagree that He is breaking the Sabbath? And please note that to show disagreement with the Pharisees about something other than the breaking of the Sabbathis not good enough. You have to show that Jesus claims He is not breaking the Sabbath.

Please educate the "foolish" - show us where Jesus denies breaking the Sabbath. But I will notice if you try to pass off Jesus' disagreement with the Pharisees on another, related yet definitely distinct matter, as a denial that He is breaking the Sabbath.

Heidi (and others): Do you believe that the Jews (or anyone else) are still are under obligation to honour the stuff about not working on the Sabbath? If your answer is "no", what exact event caused the world to transition of a state where the rule was in effect to a state where it is not in effect? I humbly suggest that the very content of your own argument does not allow you to claim that "Jesus ended the Sabbath by any action of His".

I will boldly suggest that if you and others actually believe that Jesus ended the need to obey the Sabbath, you really need to work out the mechanics of how that actually happened. I think it happened by, you guessed it, Jesus' breaking of the Sabbath on a number of occasions. If you believe that Jesus ended the Sabbath, please tell us how He did this without "breaking" it.

 

[Guest]

Drew - how can Christ "break" something that He came to FULFILL?

 

[Drew]

Drew - how can Christ "break" something that He came to FULFILL?

Thanks for the question. By the way, I am not married to my view on this whole subject. I am "making up my position" as I go along. And you at least seem to understand that it is conceptually possible to talk about "breaking the law" without sinning - as in the example of "justified homicide" that you raised.

Before I go any further, I think that I need to ask you whether you believe that the rule about notworking on the Sabbath is still in effect today for anybody.

 

[Guest]

Drew - how can Christ "break" something that He came to FULFILL?

Thanks for the question. By the way, I am not married to my view on this whole subject. I am "making up my position" as I go along. And you at least seem to understand that it is conceptually possible to talk about "breaking the law" without sinning - as in the example of "justified homicide" that you raised.

Before I go any further, I think that I need to ask you whether you believe that the rule about notworking on the Sabbath is still in effect today for anybody.

I believe Scripture is clear - Christ came to fulfill the Law. Christ cannot and did not "break" something that He came to fulifill.

To be honest, I do not even understand the point of this discussion. In the scheme of things, does it really matter?