Bible Study Salvation - Four Aspects

[Eugene]

Ephesians 2:8, 9. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Now, if salvation is a gift, we can't do anything to earn it, but you read in (Philippians 2:12) that you must work out your own salvation with all fear and trembling. If God has provided this salvation as a free gift, how am I to add anything to that? There are many different ways that the word salvation is used in the Bible, such as safety from enemies, but I will limit this thread's teaching to four aspects concerning salvation of the soul.

First - It is provisional. If you accept Jesus as your savior, you will be saved. (Romans 10:9-10) "If you say with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved, (10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

Second - When you become saved, it is at this time that you are born again and have overcome the penalty of sin, or become saved from the great white throne judgment and the resulting lake of fire. (Repeating John 5:24), "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." In (Romans 8:1) "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus."

Third - The working out your own salvation referred to in (Philippians 2:12) is learning to overcome the habit of sin in our lives. This is the experiencing part of our salvation and is another step in our growth as a Christian. (2 Peter 1:5-7) tells us to "Add to your faith virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness and charity." To realize this growth in our lives, we must learn to begin counting our old man dead. (Romans 6:6) "Knowing this, that our old man (The Adamic nature) is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.” (Ephesians 4:22) “That ye put off concerning the former conversation (Manner of life) the old man who is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;” (Colossians 3:9) “Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds." We all have an old man we should count as dead that still wants to rule our lives. Even though the Apostle Paul knew he was saved, he experienced all kinds of problems with the old man trying to control his life. (Romans 7:14-25) states that (15) he ends up doing that which he hates. In (16,17), Paul realizes that if he agrees that the law is good, then it is no more him that was responsible, but sin that was in him. In looking for an answer he says (24) "Who shall deliver me?" (25) "I thank God through Jesus Christ"

(Romans 8:1). "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus." And in (Romans 8:4) it says that "The righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us (Not by us), who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Fourth - We will be saved from this corrupt world. In (Romans 8:18-23), Paul states (18) "For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. (21) Because the creature (Creation) itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. (22) For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now." John states in (1 John 3:2) "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

This post is an excerpt of the pamphlet I wrote.
Salvation with Security – 1, 2, 3
http://www.christianforums.net/Fell...ds/salvation-with-security-parts-1-2-3.52236/

 

[eddif]

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Taking our bi-polar Romans 7:25 self:
1 repent toward father
2 salvation through Jesus
3 empowerment through Holy Spirit
4. Relationship with other people (all things to all men)

eddif

 

[Eugene]

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Thanks for your reply. You have quoted what some refer to as the great commission, but do you believe that has began, and if not when do you believe it is to begin? Has Jesus received His own throne yet (Mt 19:28, Luk 1:32 & Rev 4:2), or is He in His Father's throne? (Rev 3:21)

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
I do not know of a nation being baptized at this time, and Paul gives us different instructions in Col 3:17. And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
Blessings in Christ Jesus.

Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

 

[eddif]

Admonished by not one post, or even two posts, but by three posts in a row. LOL.

If we have not entered into all these things, should we not just shut down what we post and wait for a later date?

1 John taught repentance (IMHO sins against the father)?, and believe in the one who comes after me.
2 Jesus was the Messiah and he began his eternal rule when he sat down on the Fathers right hand
3 Holy Spirit baptized all on the day of Pentecost
4 Paul went to nations (as well as all the nations at Pentecost returned to their homes with the message)


By the way. I am sitting here with the biggest grin on my face that exists.

The end of the ages has come
I Corinthians 10:11
Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Your turn.

eddif

 

[JLB]

I do not know of a nation being baptized at this time, and Paul gives us different instructions in Col 3:17. And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

I see. So you don't believe the Gospel that Jesus sent His Apostles to preach, has been preached to the Gentiles, as well as the Jews?

The nations refer to the different ethnic groups.

The Jews and proselytes that were in Jerusalem on the Day of Pentecost, by design, certainly would have been instrumental in sharing what they experienced, with their countrymen, once they returned home.

5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. 6 And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language. 7 Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, “Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? 8 And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born? 9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God.” 12 So they were all amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “Whatever could this mean?”

13 Others mocking said, “They are full of new wine.”

14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. 15 For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17 ‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.
18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in heaven above
And signs in the earth beneath:
Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
21 And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Shall be saved.’

22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know— 23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. 25 For David says concerning Him:

‘I foresaw the Lord always before my face,
For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad;
Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope.
27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
28 You have made known to me the ways of life;
You will make me full of joy in Your presence.’

29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.

34 “For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:

‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”’

36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”

38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”

40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” 41 Then those who gladlyreceived his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them. 42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers. Acts 2:5-42

Peter preached to men from every nation under heaven.

JLB

 

[Eugene]

C

Admonished by not one post, or even two posts, but by three posts in a row. LOL.

If we have not entered into all these things, should we not just shut down what we post and wait for a later date?

1 John taught repentance (IMHO sins against the father)?, and believe in the one who comes after me.
2 Jesus was the Messiah and he began his eternal rule when he sat down on the Fathers right hand
3 Holy Spirit baptized all on the day of Pentecost
4 Paul went to nations (as well as all the nations at Pentecost returned to their homes with the message)


By the way. I am sitting here with the biggest grin on my face that exists.

The end of the ages has come
I Corinthians 10:11
Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Your turn.

eddif

I'm glad I could entertain you.
To begin with, I will only hit highlights, and then if we need to, I will respond on individual points only per reply in order to not make each response too exhaustive.

1. I'm not sure what your reply concerning believing on Jesus taught by John the Baptist has to do with the end of the age or world other than who will come unto judgment. Not knowing your doctrinal stance on dispensations, do you understand the end of this age to begin with Rev. 4:1 where John is caught up to see things hereafter?

2. You say Jesus began His eternal rule when He sat down at our Father's right hand. May I ask in what manner. I see Him walking among the candlesticks; the churches, and yet the time of judgment of the world is not yet, or at least not that I see. Jesus did have John write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter in Rev 1:19; can you see three different ages in those directions? If not I reckon you got me partner.

3. You stated "Holy Spirit baptized all on the day of Pentecost," and of course that pertained to believers only. It in fact is the beginning of this present age many refer to as the Church Age or age of grace we enjoy. Of course we, the Church are being judged (1 Pet 4:17) as we walk in Christ pertaining to our spiritual faithfulness. (Rev 2:10) Some as Ephesus no longer have retained their first love of Jesus, and are told to repent (Rev 2:5).

4. Next you say "Paul went to nations (as well as all the nations at Pentecost returned to their homes with the message)."
Weren't the nations at Pentecost all of Israel; I may be wrong on this. At one point in Act 16:6 Paul was forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia. Something else here is that in Act 19:5 Paul baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Was he rebelling against the Great Commission of baptizing the nations in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost of Mat 28:19?

I might ask you to elaborate a bit more on your responses if you will. For instance, on your point that the ends of the world are come; I don't think you are saying there is nothing more to come. We seem to be in the times of the Gentiles until the coming tribulation, and in my understanding Jesus will take the power given Him in Mt 28:16 and begin taking power from nations ruling in usurpation at that time.
God bless you in Jesus' name.

 

[Eugene]

I see. So you don't believe the Gospel that Jesus sent His Apostles to preach, has been preached to the Gentiles, as well as the Jews?

Yes I do, but not at first; Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Act 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you (The Jews): but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
Rom 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin

Why is Peter baptizing in Jesus' name when told to baptize in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost?

5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.

Do you read the word JEWS from every nation? They were surprised to hear their home languages being spoke. There may have been proselytes among them, but I don't read it as being so; I may have missed something. And then were all those hearing Peter believers in Christ; again I have no idea because prior to this I read in Act 1:15, and in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty.

 

[Jim Parker]

Second - When you become saved, it is at this time that you are born again and have overcome the penalty of sin, or become saved from the great white throne judgment and the resulting lake of fire. (Repeating John 5:24), "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." In (Romans 8:1) "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus."/

Not quite.

(1) Jesus said that we must be born again of water and of Spirit.

Paul describes being "born again" of water at Rom 6:3-4 "Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life."

Having died and been buried with Christ in the waters of baptism we are raised to new life (born again) in Christ. That is being "born again" of water as was universally taught by the church of the first centuries

Peter, after preaching to the crowd at Pentecost, responded to the question, "What shall we do?" by saying
"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (Act 2:38)

Receiving the gift of the Spirit is being born of the Spirit.

(2) We do not "overcome the penalty of sin." Jesus did.

The wages (not penalty) of sin is death. Death is not a penalty imposed by God because we sin. Death is the choice we make when we decide to reject God's will and to do our own will.

God is the only being who has life by nature. All creatures have life by God's will. When we sin, we separate ourselves from the only source of eternal life and, thereby, enter into the path to eternal death.

All of mankind sins and is, therefore, subject to death which results from separating ourselves from Life. (Jesus said, "I AM the life..")

We do not "overcome the penalty of sin." Jesus, by His death and resurrection, destroyed the power of death to hold mankind. The result is that ALL of mankind will be raised from the dead imperishable and immortal.

1Co 15:42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable.
1Co 15:52-54 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."

Where each individual spends eternity is determined by each individual's choice to follow and obey Christ or to reject Him and follow their own desires.

Rom 2:6-10: For he (God) will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.


[/QUOTE]Third - The working out your own salvation referred to in (Philippians 2:12) is learning to overcome the habit of sin in our lives. This is the experiencing part of our salvation and is another step in our growth as a Christian. (2 Peter 1:5-7) tells us to "Add to your faith virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness and charity." To realize this growth in our lives, we must learn to begin counting our old man dead. (Romans 6:6) "Knowing this, that our old man (The Adamic nature) is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.” (Ephesians 4:22) “That ye put off concerning the former conversation (Manner of life) the old man who is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;” (Colossians 3:9) “Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds." We all have an old man we should count as dead that still wants to rule our lives. Even though the Apostle Paul knew he was saved, he experienced all kinds of problems with the old man trying to control his life. (Romans 7:14-25) states that (15) he ends up doing that which he hates. In (16,17), Paul realizes that if he agrees that the law is good, then it is no more him that was responsible, but sin that was in him. In looking for an answer he says (24) "Who shall deliver me?" (25) "I thank God through Jesus Christ"[/QUOTE]

From my experience, people do not overcome habits; they replace them. So, as you have pointed out, we replace our old habits of doing evil (disguised as our own will) and replace them with the habits of doing good; the works which God ordained for us to do. (Eph 2:10)

Paul did not consider himself to be saved (Phil 3:8-14) until the end of his life (2 Tim 4:7-8) when he was under the sentence of death. He looked forward to a martyr's death as the glorious crown of his work in God's calling.

my 2 kopecks
iakov

 

[Kidron]

Paul did not consider himself to be saved (Phil 3:8-14) until the end of his life (2 Tim 4:7-8) when he was under the sentence of death. He looked forward to a martyr's death as the glorious crown of his work in God's calling.

iakov

Actually Paul understood that he was born again long before he died.
He understood that he was "in Christ", long before he died.
When he was stoned to death, and went into the "3rd heaven" and saw the wonders that he didnt care to share for reasons he understood, he certainly knew he was saved.
When he was a very young "Christian", and Jesus took him aside and gave him the revelation of the Grace of God that we know as the "Pauline Theology", he certainly understood that he was born again, (Saved),
And when he could have died years earlier and said it was "far better to be with Christ", but decided it was better for the church "more needful for you", if he stayed, then he certainly knew he was saved.
And at the end of his life, after he had completed the work God had required..... he was so glad to be sent home by the axe to meet his Lord and live with his Father.
Its odd that you dont realize what Paul knew, but then......thats life i guess.

 

[HalleluYAH]

Faith alone may get one the first resurrection, if they remain undeceived until Christ returns. However, for those who do not make the first resurrection, they will have to earn it by their works before the White Throne Judgment.

Revelation 20:11-15
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Jim Parker]

Actually Paul understood that he was born again long before he died.
He understood that he was "in Christ", long before he died.
When he was stoned to death, and went into the "3rd heaven" and saw the wonders that he didnt care to share for reasons he understood, he certainly knew he was saved.
When he was a very young "Christian", and Jesus took him aside and gave him the revelation of the Grace of God that we know as the "Pauline Theology", he certainly understood that he was born again, (Saved),
And when he could have died years earlier and said it was "far better to be with Christ", but decided it was better for the church "more needful for you", if he stayed, then he certainly knew he was saved.
And at the end of his life, after he had completed the work God had required..... he was so glad to be sent home by the axe to meet his Lord and live with his Father.
Its odd that you dont realize what Paul knew, but then......thats life i guess.

In the passage I posted from Phil 3, Paul specifically stated that he did not consider himself to have laid hold of the the resurrection..

 

[Eugene]

We do not "overcome the penalty of sin." Jesus did.
The wages (not penalty) of sin is death. Death is not a penalty imposed by God because we sin. Death is the choice we make when we decide to reject God's will and to do our own will.

Dear brother, I think this is splitting hairs over a selection of words I used, but I certainly have no problem giving credit to my Savior for having saved us.

You said “The wages (not penalty) of sin is death. Death is not a penalty imposed by God because we sin. Death is the choice we make when we decide to reject God's will and to do our own will.”
Penalty is a punishment imposed for breaking a law, rule, or contract. Webster.
I chose to use the word penalty as a wage; something earned. At this point I was not speaking of a sin unto death a Christian might commit, or as Moses had imposed on him for unbelief. We were dead in sins.

Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

I’ll leave off here as I’m not really sure the direction this is headed, and then we can cover the remaining portions of your reply later. Thanks.

 

[Eugene]

Paul did not consider himself to be saved (Phil 3:8-14) until the end of his life (2 Tim 4:7-8) when he was under the sentence of death. He looked forward to a martyr's death as the glorious crown of his work in God's calling.

Paul was not talking of attaining salvation here; Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus!!!
Paul was running a race to have the ultimate prize offered for our keeping of the faith, and that is winning Jesus as our bridegroom.
2Ti 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Our works of righteousness is not attributed to winning or keeping our salvation attained by our Lord for us which believe, they are as the bride of Rev 19:8 which is clothed in righteous works as becomes saints.

 

[Jim Parker]

Penalty is a punishment imposed for breaking a law, rule, or contract. Webster.

Webster is a great source for current usage of modern, American, English.
It offers nothing with regard to ancient, Koine, Greek.

[/QUOTE]I chose to use the word penalty as a wage; something earned. [/QUOTE]

I'm afraid that is a little bit like choosing the word "baseball" as an onion, something round. Each word has very specific meanings and they are very different. A penalty is not a wage. Would you say that you worked all week and on Friday received your due penalty; a paycheck? Of course not! A wage and a penalty are two very different things.

The employment of the meaning "penalty" has a significant affect upon one's understanding of scripture.

For example; if death is the penalty for sin, rather than the wages of sin, then we should understand Gen 2:17; "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die." to mean, "for in the day that you eat of it I will kill you."

The one sin from which all sin springs is the choice to be our own god by our own devices. That was the temptation of Eve by which the serpent beguiled her and Adam to "be like God."

Sin separates us from God and God is the only being who has life by nature. All other creatures that live receive their life from God. When we separate ourselves from God by intentional sin and rejection of His Lordship, we separate ourselves from the only source of life. Death is the only possible outcome of such a choice.

God does not inflict a penalty of death upon us; we freely choose death by our choice to sin; each and every one of us. But God, in His gracious mercy, offers whosoever will believe redemption from death through repentance and faith.

The idea that God punishes man for sin by killing him assumes a God of law and wrath rather than the God of grace and mercy revealed in Christ who, while we were yet God's enemies, gave himself over to a hideous death so that we might receive eternal life.

So the substitution of the word "penalty" for the word "wages" has enormous consequences for our understanding of God.

Is He a God of wrath who, in His rage, inflicts punishment upon sinners or is He the God who so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes on him shall not perish but have everlasting life?

The God of law and wrath theology produces atheists who want nothing to do with such a being.

The God who so loves the world draws mankind unto Himself to be his bride, the church.

Pick one.

Choose carefully.

My 2 kopecks
iakov

 

[Eugene]

Webster is a great source for current usage of modern, American, English.
It offers nothing with regard to ancient, Koine, Greek.

I chose to use the word penalty as a wage; something earned.

I'm afraid that is a little bit like choosing the word "baseball" as an onion, something round. Each word has very specific meanings and they are very different. A penalty is not a wage. Would you say that you worked all week and on Friday received your due penalty; a paycheck? Of course not! A wage and a penalty are two very different things.

The employment of the meaning "penalty" has a significant affect upon one's understanding of scripture.

For example; if death is the penalty for sin, rather than the wages of sin, then we should understand Gen 2:17; "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die." to mean, "for in the day that you eat of it I will kill you."

The one sin from which all sin springs is the choice to be our own god by our own devices. That was the temptation of Eve by which the serpent beguiled her and Adam to "be like God."

Sin separates us from God and God is the only being who has life by nature. All other creatures that live receive their life from God. When we separate ourselves from God by intentional sin and rejection of His Lordship, we separate ourselves from the only source of life. Death is the only possible outcome of such a choice.

God does not inflict a penalty of death upon us; we freely choose death by our choice to sin; each and every one of us. But God, in His gracious mercy, offers whosoever will believe redemption from death through repentance and faith.

The idea that God punishes man for sin by killing him assumes a God of law and wrath rather than the God of grace and mercy revealed in Christ who, while we were yet God's enemies, gave himself over to a hideous death so that we might receive eternal life.

So the substitution of the word "penalty" for the word "wages" has enormous consequences for our understanding of God.

Is He a God of wrath who, in His rage, inflicts punishment upon sinners or is He the God who so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes on him shall not perish but have everlasting life?

The God of law and wrath theology produces atheists who want nothing to do with such a being.

The God who so loves the world draws mankind unto Himself to be his bride, the church.

Pick one.

Choose carefully.

My 2 kopecks
iakov

I reckon the only thing I can recommend is that if you don't like my choice of the word "Penalty" you should not use it, or condemn me for doing so, and I'm just kidding.

You said: "When we separate ourselves from God by intentional sin." Do you ever commit even one little sin, and if so is it accidental or a part of your old nature? Do you immediately lose your salvation at that moment?

You also said: "Is He a God of wrath who, in His rage, inflicts punishment upon sinners," and I would answer no, not in rage, but you might ask Moses who was told to go up and die on the mount because he didn't believe God (Num 20:12 and Deut 32:50-51).

And then: "For example; if death is the penalty for sin, rather than the wages of sin, then we should understand Gen 2:17; "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die." to mean, "for in the day that you eat of it I will kill you."
Do you think that may be why God called the law, or the that which revealed the knowledge of good and evil a ministration of death engraven in stones (2 Cor_3:7)?

 

[Jim Parker]

[/QUOTE] You said: "When we separate ourselves from God by intentional sin." Do you ever commit even one little sin, and if so is it accidental or a part of your old nature? Do you immediately lose your salvation at that moment? [/QUOTE]

Good question. Clarifying, I understand that we separate ourselves from God by choosing to continue in unrepentant sin. So the sins that we all commit are not usually in that category. The Christian life is one of continual repentance. (Martin Luther and Fulton Sheen)

[/QUOTE]You also said: "Is He a God of wrath who, in His rage, inflicts punishment upon sinners," and I would answer no, not in rage, but you might ask Moses who was told to go up and die on the mount because he didn't believe God (Num 20:12 and Deut 32:50-51). [/QUOTE]

Moses was prevented from entering the promised land but was taken up into the presence of God as demonstrated by his appearance with Elijah at Jesus transfiguration. I don't consider that a punishment.

[/QUOTE]And then: "For example; if death is the penalty for sin, rather than the wages of sin, then we should understand Gen 2:17; "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die." to mean, "for in the day that you eat of it I will kill you."
Do you think that may be why God called the law, or the that which revealed the knowledge of good and evil a ministration of death engraven in stones (2 Cor_3:7)? [/QUOTE]

Maybe, but I think you are conflating two concepts. The law made man conscious of sin and of the fact that he had already sinned and had earned death. It also made him aware, if he was paying attention, that he needed God to save him.

The knowledge of good and evil is a much larger subject than the law and it is beyond the capacity of mankind to grasp. Just look at some of the stupid laws we have today!

It was not Adam and Eve's business to know good and evil; it was their business to know God as it is our business today. If one knows God, evil becomes easily identified so that it can be avoided. We have no business knowing evil. To know it requires that we become students of evil. Why waste ones time. When we see it, avoid stepping in it.

iakov

 

[Eugene]

Moses was prevented from entering the promised land but was taken up into the presence of God as demonstrated by his appearance with Elijah at Jesus transfiguration. I don't consider that a punishment.

What do you think occurs to the Christian when we are absent from the body, but present with the Lord? (2 Cor 5:8).
And since there was no place in heaven for the righteous until Jesus died, where do you think he was until then? What of others that were told to die because of sin?

 

[Jim Parker]

What do you think occurs to the Christian when we are absent from the body, but present with the Lord? (2 Cor 5:8).

I think that our conscious soul is with the Lord. (But I'm kind of fuzzy on the soul-spirit thingy.)

[/QUOTE]And since there was no place in heaven for the righteous until Jesus died, where do you think he was until then? What of others that were told to die because of sin?[/QUOTE]

In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, Jesus describes the place of the deceased righteous as the "bosom of Abraham." It is apparently a place of comfort and peace.

The scripture doesn't say much about the subject. That's probably because we're supposed to be busy doing the Lord's will and leaving to speculation to people who think they have time for it.

my 2 kopecks
iakov

 

[eddif]

Thanks for your reply. You have quoted what some refer to as the great commission, but do you believe that has began, and if not when do you believe it is to begin? Has Jesus received His own throne yet (Mt 19:28, Luk 1:32 & Rev 4:2), or is He in His Father's throne? (Rev 3:21)

Ok I will try. Not very positive "try"?
When someone has an opposing view it is hard for both parties .

I Corinthians 6:19
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghostwhich is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body isdead because of sin; but the Spiritis life because of righteousness.

Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

After which days?
Hebrews 8:9
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

The NT / NC had Jewish authors. Changed empowered disciples changed into apostles. I would think that they had Christ in them. They lived in the beginning of the church .

So I believe Christ was enthroned in their mind and hearts. If they were using carnal minds, we will have problems, with any discussion .

Romans 8:10 and Romans 7:25 allows / seems to allow, the presence of God under the NC. The OC allowed the Spirit of God in Solomon's temple (and there were sin issues then too).

I for sure am not saying we should sin. Sin is gone from our carnal bodies at the last trump.

The New Jerulaslem has made it to our minds. Revelation 21:2

You asked. I delivered,

eddif

 

[Brother Mike]

four points of Salvation, but completely ignore why the Holy Spirit used Soteria to explain a new spiritual concept as all things were suppose to become new, everything single aspect of the believers life.

A focus on sin, not being condemned, heaven to come, ignore the Word though.

Why?