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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Salvation---God & Paul
George, all those quotes from Ezek are about how the righteous man will live, or words to that effect.
I feel for you George, for you seem to think that you and everyone can achieve the righteousness that God demands by keepin the Torah. Let's start with the first commandment: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart , with all thine mind and with all thy soul. Can anyone say they keep that 100%?
And the second is like unto the first, quoting Jesus: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. And look how Jesus enlarged and clarified these two in Matt. 5:20ff: "..except your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter in to the kingdom of heaven."
WOW! And the scribes and Pharisees were "blameless" as to the Law.
And other insights: vs. 5:22, Calling your brother a fool, could result in you being judged of the fire of Gehenna.
5:28, Whoever looks at a woman lustfully, has committed adultery with her in his heart.
5:40, If a man sue you at law, give him your coat also. We must do this if we are living by the Torah? Right?
And Jesus wise sayings continue, showing, to me. that to really fulfill these one would have to be begotten from above.
Bick
George, all those quotes from Ezek are about how the righteous man will live, or words to that effect.
I feel for you George, for you seem to think that you and everyone can achieve the righteousness that God demands by keepin the Torah. Let's start with the first commandment: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart , with all thine mind and with all thy soul. Can anyone say they keep that 100%?
And the second is like unto the first, quoting Jesus: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. And look how Jesus enlarged and clarified these two in Matt. 5:20ff: "..except your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter in to the kingdom of heaven."
WOW! And the scribes and Pharisees were "blameless" as to the Law.
And other insights: vs. 5:22, Calling your brother a fool, could result in you being judged of the fire of Gehenna.
5:28, Whoever looks at a woman lustfully, has committed adultery with her in his heart.
5:40, If a man sue you at law, give him your coat also. We must do this if we are living by the Torah? Right?
And Jesus wise sayings continue, showing, to me. that to really fulfill these one would have to be begotten from above.
Bick
G
Georges
Guest
mutzrein said:
Cult? :-D
Here is the classification: God Fearer......
Exactly what Cornelius was...a Gentile God Fearer....I'm no longer associated with any of my past experiences (Lutheran, S. Baptist).
Back in the day, there were 2 classifications of Gentile God Fearer's, Proselytes (those who converted to Judaism) and non Proselytes (those who feared God and observed the commandments but didn't fully commit to Judaism (ie Circumcision)).
I'm very, very, very seriously considering proselyting to Judaism...with of course the recognition that Jesus is Messiah...just exactly as the Church at Jerusalem under the tutalage of the Apostles did. That is what Christianity should have become...
Are there any groups like the Ancient Nazarenes or Ebionites still in existence? None that I'm aware of...
G
Georges
Guest
Re: Salvation---God & Paul
More Bick.....? I'm enjoying it....you are showing class by engaging in a civil debate...
Bick said:
More Bick.....? I'm enjoying it....you are showing class by engaging in a civil debate...
U
unred typo
Guest
Bick wrote:I feel for you George, for you seem to think that you and everyone can achieve the righteousness that God demands by keepin the Torah. Let's start with the first commandment: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart , with all thine mind and with all thy soul. Can anyone say they keep that 100%?
And the second is like unto the first, quoting Jesus: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. And look how Jesus enlarged and clarified these two in Matt. 5:20ff: "..except your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter in to the kingdom of heaven."
WOW! And the scribes and Pharisees were "blameless" as to the Law.
And other insights: vs. 5:22, Calling your brother a fool, could result in you being judged of the fire of Gehenna.
5:28, Whoever looks at a woman lustfully, has committed adultery with her in his heart.
I hate to butt in but why do you say the scribes and Pharisees were “blameless†as to the law? I know you may have been taught that, but it really isn’t scriptural. They kept up appearances, yes, but Jesus said they were adulterous vipers who stole widow’s houses, made a big deal about little things like exact tithes, proudly made a showy display of their fasting, prayer and worship, and ignored the most important things of the law. That was the type of Pharisee that Jesus condemned. Not all Pharisees were included. Paul said he was a “blameless†Pharisee as touching the law, and what he did against the church, he did ignorantly in unbelief, not understanding that God could have an earthly born son. Nicodemus was another one who didn’t seem to fit into this category, but in general, they were scoundrels, not sincere Torah keepers. Basically, if you were an honest, charitable, humble, law abiding person, your righteousness would have exceeded theirs, in God‘s estimation.
The thing that Jesus was stressing was not that no one can keep the law, but that keeping the law has to come from within, not be a show for others while inside your heart, you are harboring lust, deceit, greed, murder and pride. If you start with a heart in tune with the spirit of the law, which is love, then you will be pleasing to God. Yes, perfection is attainable because when we sin, the laws of Christ are written on our heart and immediately the Spirit convicts us and when we confess (accept the correction by him and admit that what we did was wrong) and forsake each sin, he cleanses us from all unrighteousness. Some people have given up the fight because of false teaching that nullifies what the Lord taught. His yoke is easy and his burden is light. Satan’s burden of sin is heavy and results in death. It is possible to resist the devil and conquer the sin that tempts us.
Example: Satan tempts Mr. Man with a lustful image of neighbor‘s wife. Mr. Man entertains the thoughts of adultery with fantasy woman. Holy Spirit whispers, “Is that pleasing to God?†Mr. Man either chooses to agree, resisting the urge to indulge in such thoughts and finds something better to do, (confesses and forsakes his sin) and the devil flees to wait for the next weak moment or Mr. Man chooses to continue in his lustful pleasures and may even fall into actual adultery before coming to admit and forsake it, if he ever does. How far he goes determines how much punishment he will have to endure. The Holy Spirit is there to try to convince us to abandon our sin before it leads us into the need for painful correction, or even death.
Bick wrote:5:40, If a man sue you at law, give him your coat also. We must do this if we are living by the Torah? Right?
And Jesus wise sayings continue, showing, to me. that to really fulfill these one would have to be begotten from above.
Not really, Bick. I know that’s what they teach. Living by Torah only goes as far as not stealing someone else’s coat. The commands of Jesus are to love beyond that and realize that if your brother feels he needs your coat, you give it willingly because you trust God to take care of your needs. It takes real love and faith for sure. Abraham exhibited this kind of love and faith when he gave Lot first choice of the land they divided. He showed this faith when he refused to take any goods from the King of Sodom. He was an ordinary man but he believed God. That’s all God expects.
And the second is like unto the first, quoting Jesus: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. And look how Jesus enlarged and clarified these two in Matt. 5:20ff: "..except your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter in to the kingdom of heaven."
WOW! And the scribes and Pharisees were "blameless" as to the Law.
And other insights: vs. 5:22, Calling your brother a fool, could result in you being judged of the fire of Gehenna.
5:28, Whoever looks at a woman lustfully, has committed adultery with her in his heart.
I hate to butt in but why do you say the scribes and Pharisees were “blameless†as to the law? I know you may have been taught that, but it really isn’t scriptural. They kept up appearances, yes, but Jesus said they were adulterous vipers who stole widow’s houses, made a big deal about little things like exact tithes, proudly made a showy display of their fasting, prayer and worship, and ignored the most important things of the law. That was the type of Pharisee that Jesus condemned. Not all Pharisees were included. Paul said he was a “blameless†Pharisee as touching the law, and what he did against the church, he did ignorantly in unbelief, not understanding that God could have an earthly born son. Nicodemus was another one who didn’t seem to fit into this category, but in general, they were scoundrels, not sincere Torah keepers. Basically, if you were an honest, charitable, humble, law abiding person, your righteousness would have exceeded theirs, in God‘s estimation.
The thing that Jesus was stressing was not that no one can keep the law, but that keeping the law has to come from within, not be a show for others while inside your heart, you are harboring lust, deceit, greed, murder and pride. If you start with a heart in tune with the spirit of the law, which is love, then you will be pleasing to God. Yes, perfection is attainable because when we sin, the laws of Christ are written on our heart and immediately the Spirit convicts us and when we confess (accept the correction by him and admit that what we did was wrong) and forsake each sin, he cleanses us from all unrighteousness. Some people have given up the fight because of false teaching that nullifies what the Lord taught. His yoke is easy and his burden is light. Satan’s burden of sin is heavy and results in death. It is possible to resist the devil and conquer the sin that tempts us.
Example: Satan tempts Mr. Man with a lustful image of neighbor‘s wife. Mr. Man entertains the thoughts of adultery with fantasy woman. Holy Spirit whispers, “Is that pleasing to God?†Mr. Man either chooses to agree, resisting the urge to indulge in such thoughts and finds something better to do, (confesses and forsakes his sin) and the devil flees to wait for the next weak moment or Mr. Man chooses to continue in his lustful pleasures and may even fall into actual adultery before coming to admit and forsake it, if he ever does. How far he goes determines how much punishment he will have to endure. The Holy Spirit is there to try to convince us to abandon our sin before it leads us into the need for painful correction, or even death.
Bick wrote:5:40, If a man sue you at law, give him your coat also. We must do this if we are living by the Torah? Right?
And Jesus wise sayings continue, showing, to me. that to really fulfill these one would have to be begotten from above.
Not really, Bick. I know that’s what they teach. Living by Torah only goes as far as not stealing someone else’s coat. The commands of Jesus are to love beyond that and realize that if your brother feels he needs your coat, you give it willingly because you trust God to take care of your needs. It takes real love and faith for sure. Abraham exhibited this kind of love and faith when he gave Lot first choice of the land they divided. He showed this faith when he refused to take any goods from the King of Sodom. He was an ordinary man but he believed God. That’s all God expects.
S
SputnikBoy
Guest
Edited by Mod:
Was not relevant to the topic.
:edit
Was not relevant to the topic.
:edit
G
Georges
Guest
Edited by Mod:
Was not relevant to the topic.
:edit
I will be starting a thread within the next 2 weeks (to give those who are reading the pdf a chance to reflect) regarding the contents...
Was not relevant to the topic.
:edit
I will be starting a thread within the next 2 weeks (to give those who are reading the pdf a chance to reflect) regarding the contents...
G
Georges
Guest
vic said:
OK...
: :-? 
...thanks for the heads up...I will not post it.Vic...what are the TOS regs concerning a study on the letters of Revelation? In regard to their relation to Paul...? What are the limitations I need to abide by? For instance, is it ok to start a thread along the theme of....
Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and [I know] the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but [are] the synagogue of Satan.
This is not a prophecy related issue, it concerns that Church at that time.
U
unred typo
Guest
I hope i'm in the right thread. It was suggested that Paul didn’t fulfill the requirements of a prophet because he didn’t have prophesies that came true to verify what he said. Wrong. Acts records more than one prophesy by Paul:
Acts 27:21 But after long abstinence Paul stood forth in the midst of them, and said, Sirs, ye should have hearkened unto me, and not have loosed from Crete, and to have gained this harm and loss.
And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of [any man's] life among you, but of the ship.
For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve,
Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee.
Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.
Howbeit we must be cast upon a certain island.
But when the fourteenth night was come, as we were driven up and down in Adria, about midnight the shipmen deemed that they drew near to some country;……
And as the shipmen were about to flee out of the ship, when they had let down the boat into the sea, under colour as though they would have cast anchors out of the foreship, Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved. Then the soldiers cut off the ropes of the boat, and let her fall off.
Wherefore I pray you to take [some] meat: for this is for your health: for there shall not an hair fall from the head of any of you.
And falling into a place where two seas met, they ran the ship aground; and the forepart stuck fast, and remained unmoveable, but the hinder part was broken with the violence of the waves.
And the soldiers' counsel was to kill the prisoners, lest any of them should swim out, and escape. But the centurion, willing to save Paul, kept them from [their] purpose; and commanded that they which could swim should cast [themselves] first [into the sea], and get to land. And the rest, some on boards, and some on [broken pieces] of the ship. And so it came to pass, that they escaped all safe to land.
And when they were escaped, then they knew that the island was called Melita.
Act 28:16 And when we came to Rome, the centurion delivered the prisoners to the captain of the guard: but Paul was suffered to dwell by himself with a soldier that kept him.
It is quite evident that Paul accurately foretold those events. Bingo. Objection over ruled. I don’t have time now to deal with the next reason Paul’s writings are rejected but I will try to take it up later today if possible.
8-) Got to put in my time walking in the light behind the old mower.
Acts 27:21 But after long abstinence Paul stood forth in the midst of them, and said, Sirs, ye should have hearkened unto me, and not have loosed from Crete, and to have gained this harm and loss.
And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of [any man's] life among you, but of the ship.
For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve,
Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee.
Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.
Howbeit we must be cast upon a certain island.
But when the fourteenth night was come, as we were driven up and down in Adria, about midnight the shipmen deemed that they drew near to some country;……
And as the shipmen were about to flee out of the ship, when they had let down the boat into the sea, under colour as though they would have cast anchors out of the foreship, Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved. Then the soldiers cut off the ropes of the boat, and let her fall off.
Wherefore I pray you to take [some] meat: for this is for your health: for there shall not an hair fall from the head of any of you.
And falling into a place where two seas met, they ran the ship aground; and the forepart stuck fast, and remained unmoveable, but the hinder part was broken with the violence of the waves.
And the soldiers' counsel was to kill the prisoners, lest any of them should swim out, and escape. But the centurion, willing to save Paul, kept them from [their] purpose; and commanded that they which could swim should cast [themselves] first [into the sea], and get to land. And the rest, some on boards, and some on [broken pieces] of the ship. And so it came to pass, that they escaped all safe to land.
And when they were escaped, then they knew that the island was called Melita.
Act 28:16 And when we came to Rome, the centurion delivered the prisoners to the captain of the guard: but Paul was suffered to dwell by himself with a soldier that kept him.
It is quite evident that Paul accurately foretold those events. Bingo. Objection over ruled. I don’t have time now to deal with the next reason Paul’s writings are rejected but I will try to take it up later today if possible.
8-) Got to put in my time walking in the light behind the old mower.
G
Georges
Guest
unred typo said:
Not the right thread....the thread would be...
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=23564
The contention is that Paul is a false prophet as Balaam was.....at first he prophesied as God required, then after that, he (Balaam, Paul) caused the Israelites to sin by eating meat sacrificed to idols, and adultery....
Red....read the pdf, it goes through the whole thing...specifically, the Churches of Revelation and why Christ Chastises them...
and, when you are done with your lawn, how about swinging over and doing mine...? :-D
Salvation...God or through Paul
George ... you are beating a dead horse again.
As Lovely quoted it from Paul, who got it from Genesis, that Abraham, and all his offspring are justified by faith, believing what God had declared. And this was some 430 years before the Law was given through Moses.
All you can seemingly do is pick out a few verses here and there in the Hebrew Scriptures, and give some personal interpretation, that keeping the Law is the way to righteousness.
Bick
George ... you are beating a dead horse again.
As Lovely quoted it from Paul, who got it from Genesis, that Abraham, and all his offspring are justified by faith, believing what God had declared. And this was some 430 years before the Law was given through Moses.
All you can seemingly do is pick out a few verses here and there in the Hebrew Scriptures, and give some personal interpretation, that keeping the Law is the way to righteousness.
Bick
G
Georges
Guest
Re: Salvation...God or through Paul
Bick...I keep asking you to let me send you the pdf...you keep dragging your feet on it...why? In it (the pdf), it dedicates a chapter to explaining how Paul (using the septuigent) and in particular, the Septuigent's mistranslation of the Hebrew to the Greek....1 word......that makes the difference in conceptual meaning of the Abrahamic passage. Paul also uses the Septuigent in regard to Hab 2:4, another translational faux pas. Paul uses the Septuigent when he should have been using the original Hebrew to quote.
Read the pdf and quit accusing me of beating a dead horse...
Others have requested it...daily, yet you will not...quit dragging your feet...I will offer that same challenge to you that I did with Unredtypo....I will quit beating the horse if you read the entire pdf...
Bick said:
Bick...I keep asking you to let me send you the pdf...you keep dragging your feet on it...why? In it (the pdf), it dedicates a chapter to explaining how Paul (using the septuigent) and in particular, the Septuigent's mistranslation of the Hebrew to the Greek....1 word......that makes the difference in conceptual meaning of the Abrahamic passage. Paul also uses the Septuigent in regard to Hab 2:4, another translational faux pas. Paul uses the Septuigent when he should have been using the original Hebrew to quote.
Read the pdf and quit accusing me of beating a dead horse...
Others have requested it...daily, yet you will not...quit dragging your feet...I will offer that same challenge to you that I did with Unredtypo....I will quit beating the horse if you read the entire pdf...