Bible Study Satan's 1st Lesson (Immortal Soul)

[Jay T]

Satan commenced his deception in Eden. He said to Eve, "Ye shall not surely die."

This was Satan's first lesson upon the immortality of the soul, and he has carried on this deception from that time to the present, and will carry it on until Christ's return.

Pointing to Adam and Eve in Eden. They partook of the forbidden tree, and then the flaming sword was placed around the tree of life, and they were driven from the garden, lest they should partake of the tree of life, and be immortal sinners. The fruit of this tree was to perpetuate immortality.

"Who of the family of Adam have passed that flaming sword, and have partaken of the tree of life?"

"Not one of the family of Adam has passed that flaming sword, and partaken of that tree; therefore there is not an immortal sinner." The soul that sinneth, it shall die an everlasting death (Ezeekiel 18:4)...a death from which there will be no hope of resurrection; and then the wrath of God will be appeased.

It was a marvel to me that Satan could succeed so well in making men believe that the words of God, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die," mean that the soul that sinneth it shall not die, but live eternally in misery.


"Life is life, whether it is in pain or happiness. Death is without pain, without joy, without hatred."

Satan told his angels to make a special effort to spread the lie first repeated to Eve in Eden, "Ye shall not surely die." And as the error was received by the people, and they were led to believe that man was immortal, Satan led them on to believe that the sinner would live in eternal misery. Then the way was prepared for Satan to work through his representatives and hold up God before the people as a revengeful tyrant--one who plunges all those into hell who do not please Him, and causes them ever to feel His wrath; and while they suffer unutterable anguish, and writhe in the eternal flames, He is represented as looking down upon them with satisfaction.

Satan knew that if this error should be received, God would be hated by many, instead of being loved and adored; and that many would be led to believe that the threatenings of God's Word would not be literally fulfilled, for it would be against His character of benevolence and love to plunge into eternal torments the beings whom He had created.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Satan commenced his deception in Eden. He said to Eve, "Ye shall not surely die."

Already your essay is in trouble. Satan's first lesson was to question God.
"Did God really say" was his question, and it has become your question as well. Did God really say "Today, you shall be with me in Paradise?" Did He really say through Paul "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord? Did Paul really say that he knew a man who had been to the third heaven?

This was Satan's first lesson upon the immortality of the soul, and he has carried on this deception from that time to the present, and will carry it on until Christ's return.

Yes, Satan snuck into Isaiah and spoke of the worm that would not die. He also reared up in the gospels and in Revelation, and in the epistles of Paul and Jude.

BTW, Satan instructed that those who rebelled against God would not suffer consequence. Eve already was immortal, for Death was not in the Earth- or as it is written "death came through the sin of one man- Adam."

Pointing to Adam and Eve in Eden. They partook of the forbidden tree, and then the flaming sword was placed around the tree of life, and they were driven from the garden, lest they should partake of the tree of life, and be immortal sinners. The fruit of this tree was to perpetuate immortality.

"Who of the family of Adam have passed that flaming sword, and have partaken of the tree of life?"

"Not one of the family of Adam has passed that flaming sword, and partaken of that tree; therefore there is not an immortal sinner." The soul that sinneth, it shall die an everlasting death (Ezeekiel 18:4)...a death from which there will be no hope of resurrection; and then the wrath of God will be appeased.

And now the Annhilationist doctrine. The words of Christ clearly contradict this

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The Greek term used in both of these clauses is the same-eternal

It was a marvel to me that Satan could succeed so well in making men believe that the words of God, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die," mean that the soul that sinneth it shall not die, but live eternally in misery.

Nephesh, the word used in the quote you cite, means simply 'life' or 'person.' It is not the dynamic equivalent of what we English speaking Christians refer to as 'soul.'

Be not amazed- be more accurately studied.

"Life is life, whether it is in pain or happiness. Death is without pain, without joy, without hatred."

Satan told his angels to make a special effort to spread the lie first repeated to Eve in Eden, "Ye shall not surely die." And as the error was received by the people, and they were led to believe that man was immortal, Satan led them on to believe that the sinner would live in eternal misery. Then the way was prepared for Satan to work through his representatives and hold up God before the people as a revengeful tyrant--one who plunges all those into hell who do not please Him, and causes them ever to feel His wrath; and while they suffer unutterable anguish, and writhe in the eternal flames, He is represented as looking down upon them with satisfaction.

It is true that the heterodox have distorted and disfigured the character of God's judgement.

In reality, God is unchanged and unchanging. To be in His presence will be heaven for those who love Him, hell for those who despise Him. There is no place to go to flee from His presence.

Satan knew that if this error should be received, God would be hated by many, instead of being loved and adored; and that many would be led to believe that the threatenings of God's Word would not be literally fulfilled, for it would be against His character of benevolence and love to plunge into eternal torments the beings whom He had created.

Satan knows well that human reason can be used to effect rebellion. For this reason, the appeal to the "unfairness" of God's judgement of the wicked is so popular among those who have already rebelled.

 

[Free]

Jay T,

Satan commenced his deception in Eden. He said to Eve, "Ye shall not surely die."

This was Satan's first lesson upon the immortality of the soul, and he has carried on this deception from that time to the present, and will carry it on until Christ's return.

I'm curious: if God said that if they ate of the fruit they would die, wouldn't that mean that if they didn't eat of the fruit that they would never die?

 

[Gendou Ikari]

The Adversary paved the way to deceive the world from the beginning. He started out with a very simple lie. He promised man Immortality. What man wouldn't strive for that? And since the Adversary knows that man is weak and carnal in nature, he sprang and instigated the first step of his plan. This highly intellectual plan did not seem like it was doing much until Christ died and was resurrected. The people of old didn't believe that their soul was immortal. Their only hope was in the resurrection; something this wicked and adulterous generation has long forgotten.
With Christ's resurrection it finally seemed like the world was finally being released from the Adversary's grip. Flocks of pagans were converting like waves upon the sea. The world was issued into a new age of spiritual enlightenment. But then something happened. Man and his carnal nature wanted something more, they need something physical to worship. Man began to turn his attention from a personal relationship with the Divine to a pseudo-relationship focusing on creeds, rituals, services and baptisms. Man lost this great relationship with God and instead reverted back to a kind of pagan-monotheism.
The foundation of the Roman Catholic Church in 312 AD certainly didn't help. Constantine brought into it all kinds of pagan theology; including the abominable teaching of eternal damnation. The Adversary is causing people to hate God because of this teaching of eternal hellfire. Think about it. It is really hard to truly love a God when he is threatening eternal hellfire for you and your loved ones.
The Adversary is "god of this world." He has humanity right where he wants them. But even he is part of God's plan.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

The Adversary paved the way to deceive the world from the beginning. He started out with a very simple lie. He promised man Immortality.

No. Satan promised them knowledge:

For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Satan merely contradicted God, who had said that they would die if they ate of the fruit. As Free has indicated, this makes it apparent that if they had not eaten, they would not have died. Ergo, they already possessed immortality, and then lost it. Through the first man, Adam, death to all: through the last man, life (to all).

Again, Satan's lie was "did God really say,' a tactic he seems to be employing in the soul sleep heresy.

What man wouldn't strive for that?

Obviously millions do not.

And since the Adversary knows that man is weak and carnal in nature, he sprang and instigated the first step of his plan. This highly intellectual plan did not seem like it was doing much until Christ died and was resurrected. The people of old didn't believe that their soul was immortal. Their only hope was in the resurrection; something this wicked and adulterous generation has long forgotten.

That's a crock: Read the book of Enoch, which is Hebrew apocalyptic literature, dating to at least two centuries before Christ- and you will see immortal soul. Furthermore, examine the interchange between Jesus and Martha

Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Well, do you?
Apparently not.

With Christ's resurrection it finally seemed like the world was finally being released from the Adversary's grip. Flocks of pagans were converting like waves upon the sea. The world was issued into a new age of spiritual enlightenment. But then something happened. Man and his carnal nature wanted something more, they need something physical to worship. Man began to turn his attention from a personal relationship with the Divine to a pseudo-relationship focusing on creeds, rituals, services and baptisms.

Oh goody, the argument for the 'pure, primitive christianity, bereft of ceremony and hierarchy.
Sadly, His mission failed, only being 'resurrected' again within the last two hundred years. It is the dawning of the age of Aquarius.

Man lost this great relationship with God and instead reverted back to a kind of pagan-monotheism.
The foundation of the Roman Catholic Church in 312 AD certainly didn't help.

You suggest that the Edict of Milan was the foundation of the Catholic Church?

Constantine brought into it all kinds of pagan theology; including the abominable teaching of eternal damnation.

As if Constantine introduced any theology to the Church. But let us address how Constantine prompted Justin Martyr to speak of eternal damnation One hundred fifty years before his birth:

Justin Martyr

No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]).

Note the date: 151 AD.
From the Martyrdom of Polycarp

The Martyrdom of Polycarp

Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire

AD 155
Constantine had so much power in the Church, he was able to work his pagan theology backwards in time into the Church. :roll:

The Adversary is causing people to hate God because of this teaching of eternal hellfire. Think about it. It is really hard to truly love a God when he is threatening eternal hellfire for you and your loved ones.
The Adversary is "god of this world." He has humanity right where he wants them. But even he is part of God's plan.

People hate God because their hearts are filled with darkness. God is not threatening hellfire, He is warning of it- for the fire is an analogy: the true suffering is in the hatred of God in the first place.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

Jesus saith to her, `Thy brother shall rise again.' Martha saith to him, `I have known that he will rise again, in the rising again in the last day; 'Jesus said to her, `I am the rising again, and the life; he who is believing in me, even if he may die, shall live; and every one who is living and believing in me shall not die -- to the age;

I hope you don't mind my using of Young's Literal Translation of the Bible. Jesus is saying that He is the resurrection and that whoever shall believe in Him shall not die in this age. Meaning that 2e will be alive in Christ, while we are, well, alive. All of the living that are not in Christ is the walking dead in sin.

And maybe I was wrong about Constantine. I just remember hearing that he put pagan tradition into the church.

 

[SputnikBoy]

[quote="Jay T":8e6ee]Satan commenced his deception in Eden. He said to Eve, "Ye shall not surely die."

[/quote:8e6ee]

Already your essay is in trouble. Satan's first lesson was to question God.
"Did God really say" was his question, and it has become your question as well. Did God really say "Today, you shall be with me in Paradise?"

Sputnik: Neither the thief OR Jesus went to heaven that day and you should know that, OC. The intent of Jesus' statement was ... 'as from today, your salvation is assured'. Based on the facts, it CANNOT have meant anything other than that.

O.C. Did He really say through Paul "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord?

Sputnik: Which does NOT mean that one goes to be present with the Lord immediately at death. Paul knew that he would 'sleep' until the resurrection. You should know that too, OC. And, contrary to the opinion of some, Paul did his OWN speaking ...he was not a ventriloquist's doll.

OC. Did Paul really say that he knew a man who had been to the third heaven?

Sputnik: O my ...I'd forgotten about that one. I guess you're right after all, OC! Seriously, taking the verses that you've taken (particularly that last vague scripture of Paul) to try to prove a point only serves to make the Bible appear to contradict itself. You should know better than that, OC. 'Soul sleep', as you call it, is not heretical teaching but absolutely scriptural. Anyone who can READ can check this out for themselves, they don't require a denomination to do their thinking for them.

 

[SputnikBoy]

And maybe I was wrong about Constantine. I just remember hearing that he put pagan tradition into the church.

Sputnik: You are not wrong, Gendou. Constantine had strong leanings toward Mithra, the sun-god. A loyalty to 'Mithraism' would certainly have influenced traditions of the early Christian church.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

And maybe I was wrong about Constantine. I just remember hearing that he put pagan tradition into the church.

Sputnik: You are not wrong, Gendou. Constantine had strong leanings toward Mithra, the sun-god. A loyalty to 'Mithraism' would certainly have influenced traditions of the early Christian church.

What rubbish. Constantine was an Emperor, not a Bishop. Gendou had the forthrightness to concede secondary sources and information. You do not. Props to Gendou.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

I'm going to have to do some research on this Constantine. :smt014

 

[SputnikBoy]

I'm going to have to do some research on this Constantine. :smt014

Sputnik: Absolutely, Gendou ...neither OC or Sputnik need to be the final authority on Constantine. Christianity grew out of a mix of Persian Mithraism, Judaism, and the works of Paul who gave us written records of this synthesis. Emperor Constantine officially fused Mithraism and Christianity. Here's one of many sites that you might like to check out for yourself:
http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/mithraism.html

 

[Free]

Anything scholarly to back up your claims Sputnik? How about primary source material? Are you sure that Christianity incorporated Mithraism and not the other way around?

I'm curious: if Christianity really is a blend of Mithraism and the "works of Paul," then exactly what is it you believe and where do you derive your doctrine from? Do you have access to sources the rest of Christianity does not?

 

[Orthodox Christian]

[quote="Jay T":bd35f]Satan commenced his deception in Eden. He said to Eve, "Ye shall not surely die."

Already your essay is in trouble. Satan's first lesson was to question God.
"Did God really say" was his question, and it has become your question as well. Did God really say "Today, you shall be with me in Paradise?"

Sputnik: Neither the thief OR Jesus went to heaven that day and you should know that, OC. The intent of Jesus' statement was ... 'as from today, your salvation is assured'. Based on the facts, it CANNOT have meant anything other than that.

Well, that's one way to read Today- as in 'He really didn't mean today, He meant a different day.' This is what we mean when we use the same word for today- simeron- when we pray dos imin simeron give us this day our daily bread- but not today-after the bodily resurrection, please.

O.C. Did He really say through Paul "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord?

Sputnik: Which does NOT mean that one goes to be present with the Lord immediately at death. Paul knew that he would 'sleep' until the resurrection. You should know that too, OC. And, contrary to the opinion of some, Paul did his OWN speaking ...he was not a ventriloquist's doll.

Paul knew he would sleep until the resurrection, which is why he said to be absent from the body is to be present from the Lord. Of course, you'll mangel and strangle that to say 'he means after the resurrection.' You mean, like when we have been bodily resurrected? How is that 'absent from the body?'

TTTH

Never mind Jesus speaking with Moses, who 'died.' Oh, yes, the SDAs swear that was a vision, and didn't really happen. Likewise, the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus. Jesus was just careless with that one, to test us.

OC. Did Paul really say that he knew a man who had been to the third heaven?

Sputnik: O my ...I'd forgotten about that one. I guess you're right after all, OC! Seriously, taking the verses that you've taken (particularly that last vague scripture of Paul) to try to prove a point only serves to make the Bible appear to contradict itself. You should know better than that, OC. 'Soul sleep', as you call it, is not heretical teaching but absolutely scriptural. Anyone who can READ can check this out for themselves, they don't require a denomination to do their thinking for them.

[/quote:bd35f]
The bible does not contradict itself on this point, you contradict the clear teaching of the bible for your heretical doctrine. That is, the doctrine your denomination teaches.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Anything scholarly to back up your claims Sputnik? How about primary source material? Are you sure that Christianity incorporated Mithraism and not the other way around?

I'm curious: if Christianity really is a blend of Mithraism and the "works of Paul," then exactly what is it you believe and where do you derive your doctrine from? Do you have access to sources the rest of Christianity does not?

Sputnik: But I DID give the primary source for 'my claim', Free. There are any number of Interet sites that deal with this issue. I believe that Christians can apply a 'simple faith' to their Christian walk (i.e. adhere to the principles of Jesus), but historical accounts are available for the more 'serious' biblical scholar if they want to check it out.

Those of us on forums such as this like to argue and defend our beliefs (apologetics); however, I don't feel that aiming for a degree in theology is essential in order for one to be a competent Christian. There's a lot of denominational 'padding' many of us bring to forums such as this. This issue of Constantine and Mithra, for instance, need not even be an issue for those who adhere to God's commands.

 

[Free]

Sputnik: But I DID give the primary source for 'my claim', Free. There are any number of Interet sites that deal with this issue. I believe that Christians can apply a 'simple faith' to their Christian walk (i.e. adhere to the principles of Jesus), but historical accounts are available for the more 'serious' biblical scholar if they want to check it out.

Primary source material is original source material from, in this case, Mithraism. And certainly even scholarly material on the web is much better then the link you gave.

One cannot cocoon into a safety shell and live a 'simple faith' if, in fact, it is true that Christianity derived beliefs such as the resurrection from Mithraism. The very purpose of these supposed connections is to undermine everything Christianity is and believes. As soon as one finds out about a supposed connection their faith is no longer simple.

Those of us on forums such as this like to argue and defend our beliefs (apologetics); however, I don't feel that aiming for a degree in theology is essential in order for one to be a competent Christian. There's a lot of denominational 'padding' many of us bring to forums such as this. This issue of Constantine and Mithra, for instance, need not even be an issue for those who adhere to God's commands.

But again, if Constantine did join Christianity and Mithraism together, then we may not believe anything that is really Christian. However, it isn't an issue for those who know better, that such connections severely lack substance and support.

So I'll ask again: if Christianity really is a blend of Mithraism and the "works of Paul," then exactly what is it you believe and where do you derive your doctrine from? Do you have access to sources the rest of Christianity does not?

It is obvious that you think that some of popular Christian belief is wrong, such as the immortal soul doctrine, so you must have other sources if you think such teaching came from Mithraism.

 

[SputnikBoy]

OC ...I pride myself on my reading ability. The SDA Church did not teach me to read in a manner that somehow conveniently supports their doctrines. So, based on my reading and comprehension ability - and I challenge anyone to forget about their denominational tenets for a while and do the same as I have - the Bible ALONE tells me that (a. the present dead are asleep in their graves, and (b. they will remain in their graves until the resurrection. THAT INCLUDES PAUL - the 'God' of New Covenant Christians. Furthermore, the Bible tells me the same story each time I read it. Evidently SDAs can also read as well as I can!

 

[SputnikBoy]

It is obvious that you think that some of popular Christian belief is wrong, such as the immortal soul doctrine, so you must have other sources if you think such teaching came from Mithraism.

Sputnik: The Constantine and Mithra thing was a sidetrack from the main issue. As important as this fact is, I don't equate Constantine with much other than the implementing of 'the day of the sun'. Whether you like the site I gave or not, Free, there are many other sites where facts about Constantine, Mithra, and Mithraism can be found.

As for the immortal soul doctrine which this thread is dealing with, we ARE told in scripture that the soul can and will be destroyed by God for those who don't take heed (Matthew 10:28). Immortality is given only to the righteous. The unfortunate others will be destroyed.

 

[Free]

we ARE told in scripture that the soul can and will be destroyed by God for those who don't take heed (Matthew 10:28)

Matthew 10:28, "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

I see where it says God "can" destroy the soul in hell, but I don't see where it says he actually will. Can you point it out to me? Also, according to you, the word "soul" simply refers to someone who is alive, a living being. So it stands to reason that man would have the ability to kill the soul, simply by killing the body. But this stands in direct contradiction to the scripture above. I would like you to explain how it is that men can kill the body but not the soul.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Sputnik wrote:
we ARE told in scripture that the soul can and will be destroyed by God for those who don't take heed (Matthew 10:28)

Free: Matthew 10:28, "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

I see where it says God "can" destroy the soul in hell, but I don't see where it says he actually will. Can you point it out to me?

Sputnik: That God WILL destroy the souls of the unrighteous in hell is implied in the verse. In addition to that, we can see from other scriptures that the unrighteous will be destroyed in hell. So, I guess it's a matter of 2+2=4.

Free: Also, according to you, the word "soul" simply refers to someone who is alive, a living being.

Sputnik: Actually, it’s according to the Bible (Genesis 2:7), not me. Genesis tells us that God formed man from the dust of the ground, breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul (being). So, it sounds as if ‘the breath’ (or Greek pneuma), or the life force, is what activates the being into life.

Free: So it stands to reason that man would have the ability to kill the soul, simply by killing the body. But this stands in direct contradiction to the scripture above. I would like you to explain how it is that men can kill the body but not the soul.

Sputnik: God gave the life force to the physical body. The physical body can be destroyed by man; however, only God can destroy the life force as well as the physical body.

 

[Free]

Sputnik: That God WILL destroy the souls of the unrighteous in hell is implied in the verse. In addition to that, we can see from other scriptures that the unrighteous will be destroyed in hell. So, I guess it's a matter of 2+2=4.

Well 1+3 also equals 4, but I cannot find either the 1 or the 3 in that verse, nor a 2 for that matter. There is no implication that God actually will destroy the soul in hell. The whole passage is about not fearing man and fearing God because of who he is. To read more into in than that is error.

Sputnik: God gave the life force to the physical body. The physical body can be destroyed by man; however, only God can destroy the life force as well as the physical body.

So now the "life force" is separate from the body, is it? Isn't death the cessation of life? According to you, it isn't.

But this is more consistent with belief in an immortal soul and directly contradicts belief that the soul is means merely "living being". You have only substituted "life force" for "immortal soul".

So now we have you believing in an immortal life force, a life force that can exist apart from the body that only God has the ability to destroy. You affirm the immortal soul doctrine while at the same deny it. Interesting.