guibox said:
Green^Horn said:
so you see, the unbelievers will be resurrected and judged then cast into the lake of fire, the lake of fire where the worm dieth not is the final place for unbelievers, and the torment there will last forever:
it apears that the outlook is pretty grim for the unbeliever. as they will be resurrected from death, hell and the grave, and be cast into the lake of fire(eternal torment), where their worm dieth not, and the fire never shall be quenched.
Your problem is misinterpreting the metaphorical passages of Isaiah 66 and Mark 9. To say 'the worm does not die' and the 'fire is not quenched' doesn't mean 'the worms are immortal' and the 'fire never goes out'.
These metaphorical terms were used to show absolute destruction, not eternal process. Think about it....
A fire that cannot be QUENCHED (i.e. cannot be PUT out) will destroy completely, not minor damage until the fire trucks salvage some of the property. It will burn until ALL is done without interruption.
Jeremiah prophecies that God would kindle a fire in the gates of Jerusalem that WOULD NOT BE QUENCHED. This occurred during the captivity of Babylon.
Are the gates still burning??
To say that the fire will never GO out is not the meaning of unquenchable fire.
A worm that doesn't die will continue to eat until all is gone. This is again a metaphorical usage of complete destruction and annihilation. The worm can't be killed but will go on eating. Again, it doesn't make any sense that a body will keep regenerating itself so the worm can keep feeding.
Notice that in Isaiah, the worms are feeding on CORPSES, not immortal souls. You must not ignore the figurative use of these passages.
Your other problem is that immortal souls cannot keep burning. The Bible doesn't say that immortal souls or immortal bodies will be suffering eternal munching of worms (how can that possibly happen??). Rather it assumed based on misinterpretation of the words 'soul' and it's relation to the afterlife.
The righteous have new immortal bodies, the wicked are still sinful and suffer the wages of sin: DEATH. They do not have immortality, nor immortal bodies or bodiless souls to suffer eternally with.
Hence, 'eternal' is 'eternal' in terms of RESULTS for the wicked, not process. The Gree word 'ainios' allows for that interpretation.
[quote="Green^Horn":019da]everyone will exist forever, the unbelievers will exist in everlasting torment(second death) with their king(satan), and the righteous in everlasting peace with their king(Jesus)
The mere fact that the bible uses the term 'second death' shows that it cannot mean 'eternal, conscious suffering'. Notice the Bible says, "Blessed are the dead in Christ who take part in the first resurrection as THE SECOND DEATH HAS NO POWER OVER THEM"
Do you know why it doesn't have any power over them? Because they are ALIVE AND ETERNAL. Hence, to be under the power of the second death, means the opposite: death.
The 'second' death is similar to the first, not completely opposite or the term 'second' would not have been used. Were it not for the resurrection, the 'first death' would have been eternal.
"If the dead are not raised then you are yet in your sins AND THOSE THAT SLEEP IN CHRIST HAVE PERISHED" ! Corinthians 15:17,18
The second death has no redemption. Death is eternal. Death is not a process but a state and the bible used 'death' 'destruction', 'destroy' to mean exactly what they mean and they all apply to the fate of the wicked.[/quote:019da]
sorry to have to dissagree with you, but you have very little understanding about these metaphors as you call them, neither do you understand the different levels(or types) of death, none of which are ever typified as a state of permanant none existence,
here are the words of the judge himself:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
see there where he says "everlasting punishment" ?,,, according to strongs, another definition for the word "everlasting" here is "eternal" and we are told in the book of revelation what this everlasting or eternal punishment is, it is "the lake of fire" now simple logic or even comon horse sense dictates that in order for one to be punished "eternaly", then the one being punished "eternaly" must exist "eternaly" in the "eternal" punishment, elsewise it would not be an everlasting or eternal punishment,
it is writen so that even a child can understand it, but yet people still go off and attend some stupid class about the bible to learn ways to twist the words of our lord into something that he never said, similar to what you have done,
Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
2Pe 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest:
to whom the mist of darkness is reserved forever.
Jud 1:11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Korah.
Jud 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
Jud 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars,
to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
shall i continue? i think not, it bores me wasting my time on such things, knowing that after i'm done that it will do little to change the minds of those who believe as you do, so i'll stop here, cause if i've not convinced you of the truth by now, then i see no point in continuing.
