Saved by Grace not of works !

[savedbygrace57]

Coming to Christ is synomonous to believing on Him Jn 6:35

35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Now coming, as is believing is an activity, a performance of man, they both are present tense verbs, denoting someone doing something !

The word cometh is the greek word erchomai


to come

a) of persons

1) to come from one place to another, and used both of persons arriving and of those returning

The mode of motion !

The performance or doing is liken to coming from one place to another.

So its an work, so again if anyone claims they are saved from the penalty of their sins BECAUSE they come to Christ, then they are claiming Salvation from sins penalty for themselves by their activity, their doing, their work, their deed !

Again a work is described by the biblical word for work ergon :

business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done or doing: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

 

[Elijah674]

Saved by Grace or Eternally lost by 'faith alone'!

James 2
[26] For as the body [[without the spirit]] is d-e-a-d, so [[faith without works is d-e-a-d also]].

First: [MUST COME BEING BORN AGAIN!] John 3:3-8 (the dead body MUST be Born of the Holy Spirit!) and this is IMPOSSIBLE without 100% Total Subbmission to the Holy Spirit. But if one does do so?? It is then & only then [[JUST THE STARTING POINT TOWARDS MATURING SAFE TO SAVE!] Nah. 1:9

Acts 5
[32] And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

The Lord says this is [[MY PLAN]]! Will you accept it?? If so, I will supply all that is needed, but OBEDIENCE is required! The Plan IS MINE, not yours!! And is given Upon only total SUBMISSION, Then I WILL GIVE Phil. 4:13 + 2 Cor. 12:9 which is given only by MATURING 'FAITH!'

--Elijah

 

[John O]

Coming to Christ is synomonous to believing on Him Jn 6:35

35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Now coming, as is believing is an activity, a performance of man, they both are present tense verbs, denoting someone doing something !

The word cometh is the greek word erchomai


to come

a) of persons

1) to come from one place to another, and used both of persons arriving and of those returning

The mode of motion !

The performance or doing is liken to coming from one place to another.

So its an work, so again if anyone claims they are saved from the penalty of their sins BECAUSE they come to Christ, then they are claiming Salvation from sins penalty for themselves by their activity, their doing, their work, their deed !

Again a work is described by the biblical word for work ergon :

business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done or doing: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

Saved by Grace, I must admit that I find your hair splitting on this matter annoying because it detracts from the overall message on which we both agree, that we receive our salvation by the grace of God who died for our sins while we were still in our sins.

No man comes to God except the man who is responding to God. That is not work that is the sensible response of the creation recognizing the creator. The very faith required to accept Christ as our savior is given to us by God lest we boast that we saved ourselves by responding.

So if you can accept that salvation comes from God and that the only acceptable response from us is to accept the gift it is now time to move on to the next most important question what next?

Eternity is set before us so what do you see as the responsibility of the man now saved by the grace of God?

 

[savedbygrace57]

No man comes to God except the man who is responding to God. That is not work

Yes, Responding is a work by definition of what a work is, it is something man does !

 

[dadof10]

Yes, Responding is a work by definition of what a work is, it is something man does !

It may be a work to you, but it's not to Paul. In all but one of his "faith vs. works" teachings he is speaking directly about works of the law or circumcision. Nowhere does he or anyone else call accepting Christ or baptism or charity or keeping the commandments a "work".

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

 

[savedbygrace57]

dad

It may be a work to you, but it's not to Paul

Yes to Paul as well. God inspiried him to use the word ergon, the greek word for work Eph 2:9

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

That word means :

business, employment, that which any one is occupied
a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

Responding, believing, accepting, whatever mad does, a thing done, is a work !

Paul was ignorant to what the word meant that God inspired him to use, I am sire !

 

[dadof10]

dad



Yes to Paul as well. God inspiried him to use the word ergon, the greek word for work Eph 2:9

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

That word means :

business, employment, that which any one is occupied
a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

Responding, believing, accepting, whatever mad does, a thing done, is a work !

Paul was ignorant to what the word meant that God inspired him to use, I am sire !

It is also the same word used for "works of the Law". It's the only word he could use as there wasn't another word that meant "works of the law". It is obvious from the context that when he uses the word "works" in contrast to faith, he is speaking specifically of the law or circumcision. If he meant EVERYTHING, then Paul contradicts himself when he says we are saved by faith and woman is saved through childbearing, Jesus contradicts him when he says we must keep the commandments to inherit eternal life, Peter contradicts him when he says baptism saves and James contradicts him when he says we are justified by works. Don't you think it makes more sense to look at the context? It's pretty obvious that he's talking about works of the law.

 

[savedbygrace57]

dad

It is also the same word used for "works of the
Law".

Thats included !

 

[dadof10]

dad



Thats included !

Then in your opinion Scripture contradicts itself because it clearly states that baptism, faith, keeping the commandments and sacrifice all save. If "works" means all these things, scripture contradicts.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Then in your opinion Scripture contradicts itself because it clearly states that baptism, faith, keeping the commandments and sacrifice all save. If "works" means all these things, scripture contradicts.

No scripture does not contradict itself, where did I say that ?

 

[dadof10]

No scripture does not contradict itself, where did I say that ?

When you said the word "works" means EVERYTHING. If Paul says we are justified by faith NOT WORKS, and "works" means everything, then Scripture contradicts because it CLEARLY states we are saved by baptism, keeping the commandments, etc.

 

[John O]

Yes, Responding is a work by definition of what a work is, it is something man does !

You have not answered my question:

Eternity is set before us so what do you see as the responsibility of the man now saved by the grace of God?

A second question:
If God saves me by His grace how can I be saved if my responding to God is by your definition is work?

John O

 

[savedbygrace57]

dad

When you said the word "works" means EVERYTHING.

I am just sharing the definition of a work according to the inspiried word works ergon, here it is again:

business, employment, that which any one is occupied
a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

Now is believing a thing done by man ? Is accepting something man does ? Now if you contribute the cause of your salvation to something you did, its works salvation and condemned by God !

 

[dadof10]

dad



I am just sharing the definition of a work according to the inspiried word works ergon, here it is again:

business, employment, that which any one is occupied
a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

Now is believing a thing done by man ? Is accepting something man does ? Now if you contribute the cause of your salvation to something you did, its works salvation and condemned by God !

And I am just sharing the fact that if you take this definition and legalistically apply it to mean everything done, instead of only "works of the Law", then Scripture contradicts itself. Scripture says we are saved by baptism, persevering in faith, keeping the commandments, charity, etc. You say Scripture says, we are NOT saved by these things, therefore you think Scripture contradicts.

 

[Drew]

It may be a work to you, but it's not to Paul. In all but one of his "faith vs. works" teachings he is speaking directly about works of the law or circumcision.

I agree.

I think one of the biggest misreadings of Paul is to take his denial of "justification by works" and read it as a denial of "justification by doing good deeds". This is not what Paul means - he is really challenging the Jewish belief in justification by doing the "works" of the Law of Moses.

I used to hold to the standard evangelical position on this - believing that Paul was saying that "good works" are irrelevant to salvation. Then, about five years ago, I got serious about studying my Bible and understanding the cultural matrix in which it was written.

To be frank, once I decided to take personal responsibility for understanding the Scriptures, the evidence against the "works = good works" position was overwhelming. All it takes, in my view, is an open mind. Once you accept the possibility that Paul is talking about the Law of Moses, it becomes manifestly clear that the textual evidence strongly supports this position.

This is not (only) a "Catholic" position. Respected protestant theologian NT Wright ascribes to this position, arguing persuasively that the reformation "got it wrong" when it comes to this particular issue.

Perhaps later, I will post on Ephesians 2:8-9. That text, studied objectively in context, is clearly a denial of justification by doing the works of the Law of Moses, not a denial of justification by "good works".

 

[Drew]

And I am just sharing the fact that if you take this definition and legalistically apply it to mean everything done, instead of only "works of the Law",....

You are right, I believe.

It is exceedingly risky to use "dictionary" definitions to make a Biblical case. It is far safer to understand the overall context and cultural setting to understand what a particular word means.

And in this case, Paul was writing in a context where the Jews of his time believed that justification was something that was only for Jews. That is, for those who do the works of the Law of Moses.

 

[savedbygrace57]

And I am just sharing the fact that if you take this definition and legalistically apply it to mean everything done, instead of only "works of the Law", then Scripture contradicts itself. Scripture says we are saved by baptism, persevering in faith, keeping the commandments, charity, etc. You say Scripture says, we are NOT saved by these things, therefore you think Scripture contradicts.

I am just sharing the definition of a work according to the inspiried word works ergon, here it is again:

business, employment, that which any one is occupied
a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

Now is believing a thing done by man ? Is accepting something man does ? Now if you contribute the cause of your salvation to something you did, its works salvation and condemned by God !

 

[John O]

I am just sharing the definition of a work according to the inspiried word works ergon, here it is again:

business, employment, that which any one is occupied
a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

Now is believing a thing done by man ? Is accepting something man does ? Now if you contribute the cause of your salvation to something you did, its works salvation and condemned by God !

Once again I am not sure you read your own thoughts. What you seem to be saying is that salvation is a spontaneous act not requiring any input from us. If this is the case why preach the gospel because that would contradict your thinking because those according to you do not need to hear the gospel because God will in a twinkling of an eye make them born again?

Any chance you could answer the previous questions I asked of you?

1)Eternity is set before us so what do you see as the responsibility of the man now saved by the grace of God?

2)If God saves me by His grace how can I be saved if my responding to God is by your definition is work?

Many thanks


John O

 

[savedbygrace57]

Once again I am not sure you read your own thoughts. What you seem to be
saying is that salvation is a spontaneous act not requiring any input from us.

Salvation is by Grace through Faith, a Gift of God, not of works Lest any man should boast !

If you did something to get saved, your input as you say, then that is salvation by works, condemned by scripture ! If you want to know my thoughts on Salvation, Just read my threads, I have been very open and straight forward about my Beliefs !

 

[John O]

Salvation is by Grace through Faith, a Gift of God, not of works Lest any man should boast !

If you did something to get saved, your input as you say, then that is salvation by works, condemned by scripture ! If you want to know my thoughts on Salvation, Just read my threads, I have been very open and straight forward about my Beliefs !

Explain faith in the context of your thoughts on salvation? In your threads you talk about faith but never in the context of your encounter with or response to it. I would be most interested.

Any chance you could answer the previous questions I asked of you?

1)Eternity is set before us so what do you see as the responsibility of the man now saved by the grace of God?

2)If God saves me by His grace how can I be saved if my responding to God is by your definition is work?


John O