Saved by Grace not of works !

[Ernest T. Bass]

bass



Yes, and its definition is wide in scope and takes in many things !

business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

The word also means doing as here Rom 2:7

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

But you still have not specified what type of work Paul had under consideration. Was Paul considering works of God, works of the Devil, works of the flesh; works of righteousness, works of merit, works of the OT law...in verse 9?

 

[savedbygrace57]

bass

But you still have not specified what type of work Paul had under consideration

Paul did not specify any particular work but works, He used a word that defined what He meant:


business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

The word also means doing as here Rom 2:7

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

bass



Paul did not specify any particular work but works, He used a word that defined what He meant:


business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

The word also means doing as here Rom 2:7

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

So are you suggesting that in verse 9 that Paul is eliminating ALL types of works from salvation?

 

[savedbygrace57]

So are you suggesting that in verse 9 that Paul is eliminating ALL types of works from salvation?

Paul used not of works. The word He used means:


business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

The word also means doing as here Rom 2:7

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Paul used not of works. The word He used means:


business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

The word also means doing as here Rom 2:7

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Yea, but I'm waiting for you to explain what "not of works" means. Does it mean Paul excluded ALL types of works or just some types of works from salvation?

 

[savedbygrace57]

bass

Yea, but I'm waiting for you to explain what "not of works" means

Paul already has. The works mean:

business, employment, that which any one is occupied
a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

 

[Drew]

I agree. It could be that they were trying to keep the OT law in such a way that they were trying to earn/merit their salvation so they would have something to boast about.

I actually think the problem was slightly different (although I would agree that there is likely an element of truth in what you are suggesting).

In short, I think the best explanation for Paul's various writings on the matter of the Jew's relation to the "works of the Law" is that the Jew saw himself as ethnically priveleged before God. On this interpretation, the Jew would not so much be doing the works of the Law of Moses to "earn" salvation, but rather as a way of showing that he is a member of a community (the nation of Israel, of course) who have been "chosen by God" for final justification simply by "family membership". On such a view, the Jew would do the works of the Law of Moses to "demonstrate" his membership in that family, not to earn salvation per se.

Some scholarly work supports this. Ed Sanders wrote about this in his well-known book "Paul and Palestinian Judaism". In that book, Sanders argues that Judaism was never a "you earn your salvation by works" religion in the first place. Instead, Sanders argues, the Jew believed that he was "chosen" to be saved; Accordingly, such a Jew would then do the works of the Law of Moses to demonstrate gratitude, not to earn salvation.

Do you see what I am saying?

 

[Drew]

Hello Ernest:

I trust you agree that the "dictionary" approach suggested by "savedbygrace" is exceedingly suspect. Language is much more complicated and subtle.

More specifically, the nature of a dictionary definition is such that it simply cannot "cover" all cases where the word at issue is nuanced by context (in all senses of the term "context", including the cultural setting in which the writing was set down).

It is clear that Paul was embedded in a culture where the Jew did the works of the Law of Moses - a very specific code of practices. So it is certainly possible that Paul could use the short-hand "works" to denote the works of the Law of Moses, not the more general category suggested by the dictionary.

And although I have yet to present the case (in this thread at least), I suggest it is overwhelmingly clear that, in Ephesians 2:8-9 at least, Paul is talking about the works of the Law of Moses.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

bass



Paul already has. The works mean:

business, employment, that which any one is occupied
a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

You defined what work means, and that is fine. Now just tell us what type of work Paul had under consideration.

I can ask you to define "ball" and you may define it as a circular sphere and I would agree with that definition. Yet "circular sphere" does not tell me what type of circular sphere; a baseball? basketball? Soccor ball? billiard ball?

 

[Drew]

I would respectfully add that the gift of eternal life, although not earned, is so precious that it is not given to just anyone who disdains it...

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Works don't earn salvation, but it appears that they surely can disqualify one from salvation.

What do you mean by "works don't earn salvation"? Paul's words are really quite clear; when you grant eternal life "according to what that person has been done", it is clear that the "criteria", or basis, for receiving eternal life is indeed "what you have done".

Again:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

As I have acknowledged, it is only by grace that we are empowered to do these works. But Paul means what he says - final salvation is based on "good works".

 

[Drew]

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Works don't earn salvation, but it appears that they surely can disqualify one from salvation.

Do you not realize this text, like verses 6 and 7, involves a clear assertion that it is what we do that leads to justification?

"The doers of the Law"............what?

.............shall be.......what?

justified.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I actually think the problem was slightly different (although I would agree that there is likely an element of truth in what you are suggesting).

In short, I think the best explanation for Paul's various writings on the matter of the Jew's relation to the "works of the Law" is that the Jew saw himself as ethnically priveleged before God. On this interpretation, the Jew would not so much be doing the works of the Law of Moses to "earn" salvation, but rather as a way of showing that he is a member of a community (the nation of Israel, of course) who have been "chosen by God" for final justification simply by "family membership". On such a view, the Jew would do the works of the Law of Moses to "demonstrate" his membership in that family, not to earn salvation per se.

Some scholarly work supports this. Ed Sanders wrote about this in his well-known book "Paul and Palestinian Judaism". In that book, Sanders argues that Judaism was never a "you earn your salvation by works" religion in the first place. Instead, Sanders argues, the Jew believed that he was "chosen" to be saved; Accordingly, such a Jew would then do the works of the Law of Moses to demonstrate gratitude, not to earn salvation.

Do you see what I am saying?

I guess what I had in mind was Rom 10:3 "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

Here Paul tells us the Jews were lost for they would not submit/obey the righteousness/commandments of God. Instead of obeying God the Jews went "about to establish their own rightoeusness". I believe what Paul had in mind when he said "establish their own righteousness" was that the Jews had replaced some of the OT rites with their own self-made rites and thus attempted to merit salvation.

One commentator put it this way:

"Their own righteousness ...
is not a reference to Israel's seeking salvation through observance of the law of Moses, but to their reliance upon their own religious ceremonies and commandments which they had substituted for God's true commands. Such works of the Israelites were the "works of human righteousness."


But either way, Paul is not in any way eliminating all types of works from salvation in Eph 2:9.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Hello Ernest:

I trust you agree that the "dictionary" approach suggested by "savedbygrace" is exceedingly suspect. Language is much more complicated and subtle.

More specifically, the nature of a dictionary definition is such that it simply cannot "cover" all cases where the word at issue is nuanced by context (in all senses of the term "context", including the cultural setting in which the writing was set down).

It is clear that Paul was embedded in a culture where the Jew did the works of the Law of Moses - a very specific code of practices. So it is certainly possible that Paul could use the short-hand "works" to denote the works of the Law of Moses, not the more general category suggested by the dictionary.

And although I have yet to present the case (in this thread at least), I suggest it is overwhelmingly clear that, in Ephesians 2:8-9 at least, Paul is talking about the works of the Law of Moses.

Yes. And if "not of works" eliminates works of the law of Moses, then that opens the door that salvation can be by some other type of work. So "not of works" does NOT eliminate ALL types of works as some mistakenly think.

 

[savedbygrace57]

In the definition of works ergon it reads:

business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that

which is less than work

One of the definitions, that which anyone is occupied !

That word occupied is defined as:

to engage or employ the mind, energy, or attention of:

Employ the mind:

tokeepbusyoratwork

Engaging or employing the Mind is a work !

A Person believes with their Mind, so if you say that you are saved from your sins BECAUSE you believed, then you are advocating Salvation by works and consequently reject this Eph 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

See, if one is saved because of their believing, or responding then they have cause to boast about what they did !

 

[John O]

Yes. And if "not of works" eliminates works of the law of Moses, then that opens the door that salvation can be by some other type of work. So "not of works" does NOT eliminate ALL types of works as some mistakenly think.

I agree with this statement. Faith demands a response and Romans 12:1-3 shows what is an acceptable response.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, pleasing to God, which is your reasonable service.
Rom 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, in order to prove by you what is that good and pleasing and perfect will of God.
Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to every one who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think. But set your mind to be right-minded, even as God has dealt to every man the measure of faith.


John O

 

[savedbygrace57]

bass

You defined what work means, and that is fine.

The word defines itself, I just witness to it !

 

[Elijah674]

I actually think the problem was slightly different (although I would agree that there is likely an element of truth in what you are suggesting).

In short, I think the best explanation for Paul's various writings on the matter of the Jew's relation to the "works of the Law" is that the Jew saw himself as ethnically priveleged before God. On this interpretation, the Jew would not so much be doing the works of the Law of Moses to "earn" salvation, but rather as a way of showing that he is a member of a community (the nation of Israel, of course) who have been "chosen by God" for final justification simply by "family membership". On such a view, the Jew would do the works of the Law of Moses to "demonstrate" his membership in that family, not to earn salvation per se.

Some scholarly work supports this. Ed Sanders wrote about this in his well-known book "Paul and Palestinian Judaism". In that book, Sanders argues that Judaism was never a "you earn your salvation by works" religion in the first place. Instead, Sanders argues, the Jew believed that he was "chosen" to be saved; Accordingly, such a Jew would then do the works of the Law of Moses to demonstrate gratitude, not to earn salvation.

Do you see what I am saying?

You say:

I actually think the problem was slightly different (although I would agree that there is likely an element of truth in what you are suggesting).

That sure sounds Pharisical from here???? You say: 'there is 'likely a element of truth..'??

If one keeps using the words of the Law of Moses as is being repeated over & over here, then they need to know what Paul's problem were & still are today. Acts 15 signals then out.

Acts 15
[1] And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren,[[and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.]]

[2] When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders [[about this question]].
.....

[5] But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and [[to command them to keep the law of Moses]].

....

(OK: Circumcism + the law of Moses was the only question to be discussed it states. And these following thoughts are all that the elders found to be left intact from the [[LAW OF MOSES]], which were penned by Moses in a book (Deut. 31:9 + 24-26 ) & placed in the side of the Ark of God, where the Eternal Covenant still is at today in heaven. Rev. 11:19)
.....

[19] Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
[20] But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
[21] For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

[22] Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:

 

[Drew]

I guess what I had in mind was Rom 10:3 "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

Exactly - they thought that salvations was just for Jews.

I believe what Paul had in mind when he said "establish their own righteousness" was that the Jews had replaced some of the OT rites with their own self-made rites and thus attempted to merit salvation.

I know what you are saying, but I think that the heart of the problem was a belief in ethnic privilege, not that Jews thought they could "earn" their way to salvation. To be fair, though, I think it is challenging to make the case either way (i.e. to determine if the real problem was perceived ethnic privilege or trying to "earn" justification).

But either way, Paul is not in any way eliminating all types of works from salvation in Eph 2:9.

I totally agree. In Romans 2, we are told quite directly that "good works" do indeed 'count' in respect to ultimate salvation.

 

[Drew]

The word defines itself, I just witness to it !

It is not this simple.

Consider the phrase "the Yankees massacred the Indians". I will bet you that most dictionaries would define "massacre" in terms of wholesale murder and killing. And yet, thankfully, such a statement, if heard in 2012 would mean this:

The New York Yankees baseball team beat the Cleveland Indians baseball team by a lot of runs.

If we used your "appeal to the dictionary" argument, we would assume that the original statement described some act of genocide.

You continue to use this same argument and it simply is not correct. Language is too complex to be reduced to "dictionary definitions". In context, it is quite clear that Paul is referring to the very specific works of the Law of Moses, not to "works" in the more broad sense.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

In the definition of works ergon it reads:

business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that

which is less than work

One of the definitions, that which anyone is occupied !

That word occupied is defined as:

to engage or employ the mind, energy, or attention of:

Employ the mind:

tokeepbusyoratwork

Engaging or employing the Mind is a work !

A Person believes with their Mind, so if you say that you are saved from your sins BECAUSE you believed, then you are advocating Salvation by works and consequently reject this Eph 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

See, if one is saved because of their believing, or responding then they have cause to boast about what they did !

In Acts 16 Paul commanded the jailer to believe. From the text the jailer did believe, is his believing earning his salvation, is believing something he can boast about?