Saved by Grace not of works !

[Drew]

D:

Salvation is by grace, through faith, as Paul says. But Scripture also teaches moral responsibility.

OK, then. If this is so, please explain what Paul is saying here:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

As theologian NT Wright has pointed out, Romans 2 is where the standard reformation idea that "works don't matter for salvation" meets its Waterloo.

There is simply no sound reason to not take Paul at his word here, even though generations have tried all sorts of elaborate theories. Perhaps the most popular is "Well, Paul is going to tell us later that we are saved by faith, so he can't possibly mean what he writes in Romans 2"

What?

Paul does not mean what he writes?

I thought we all believed in the inerrancy of Scripture. Why, oh why, would Pual make a clear assertion that he knows to be false?

The better path, I suggest, is to understand that Paul means everything he writes and look for an interpretive framework that does not force you to sweep Romans 2 (and other texts by the way) under the rug.

And there is indeed such a framework and it is this: We are indeed saved by faith in the sense that the good works that will "save us" at the end - taking Romans 2 seriously - are the work of the Holy Spirit in us.

And what do you need to do to get the Holy Spirit who will carry out those works.

Have faith.

Nothing more.

There is no need to filter Romans 2 out of your Bible.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Ernest T Bass: Nowhere does the bible say believing is something man can boast about.

savedbygrace57: Who said the bible said that ?

In reply #424 you posted:


"See, if one is saved because of their believing, or responding then they have cause to boast about what they did !"


YOU, [not the bible], are saying one can boast if he believes.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Salvation is by the grace of God, period. We access that grace through faith. Not through correct behavior, but through the faith that Jesus is the required sacrifice that removes sin guilt. Having trust in the blood of Christ is not behavior.

Our behavior does not add to what the blood of Christ can do all by itself--pay the price for sins committed, forgiving that sin guilt and making a person righteous before God. Our behavior is the manifest expression of what we believe. Our behavior is what shows whether the faith we claim to have is a genuine faith in the forgiveness of God.

It is impossible to earn the removal of your sin guilt through righteous behavior. Impossible. The only hope we have is for God to have mercy on us and forgive our sin debt outright. And we can tell who truly believes that and has done that...by how they behave. Disobedience shows contempt for the forgiveness of Christ. Obedience shows belief and trust in the forgiveness of Christ.

So you are saying the jailer could disobey the command to believe and yet still be saved in his unbelief?

Nowhere does the bible say belief adds to the blood of Christ. The blood of Christ requires one to believe for unbelief can never access grace, not access Christ's blood where it can then wash away sins.

Rom 5:1,2 "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God."

If the jailer did not obey and have faith/belief, then he would not have access to grace that is in Christ Jesus.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

bass



Believing is something man does, a doing, which is a work !

The word work is the greek word ergon:

business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

The word is translated doing here Rom 2:7

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

So you believe man is saved by works ! Which is contrary to scripture Eph 2:9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works [or doings], lest any man should boast.

Titus 3:5

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

You are right, believing is something man does, it is also something God has commanded man, Acts 16. Not obeying God's commands is sin, so not believing is sin. So you have created a mess here that you need to clean up. On one hand you claim man is not saved by a work such as belieiving but on the other hand believing is commanded and not believing is a sin and unbelief is why many will be lost. You have put man in a no win situation, between a rock and a hard place.

 

[savedbygrace57]

bass

YOU, [not the bible], are saying one can boast if he believes.

Yes they can ! If you can point out something you did as being the cause of why God saved you, opposed to why He did not save another man with the same opportunity you had, that is grounds for boasting !

That goes not just for believing, but anything you did that made the difference from you being saved or lost !

 

[savedbygrace57]

bass

You are right, believing is something man does, it is also something God has
commanded man,

Yes, and if you get saved because of something you did, then you are saying you got saved by your works !

And by the way, Acts 16:30-31

30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

That command was given to the Jailor specifically and his house, and not to mankind in general !

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

bass



Yes, and if you get saved because of something you did, then you are saying you got saved by your works !

And by the way, Acts 16:30-31

30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

That command was given to the Jailor specifically and his house, and not to mankind in general !

Mk 1:15 others were commanded to believe the gospel.

Jn 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

There is no everlasting life for WHOSOEVER that does not believe.


So you are essentially saying "only the jailer had to believe to be saved, everyone else does not", savedbygrace57 2:21

 

[savedbygrace57]

Mk 1:15 others were commanded to believe the gospel.

Those others were not everyone in the world without exception. It was some whom were being directly spoken to.

And if they did believe, and think that is why God saved them, then they also believe in salvation by their works !

 

[savedbygrace57]

So you are essentially saying "only the jailer had to believe to be saved,
everyone else does not", savedbygrace57 2:21

Thats who Paul was speaking to was it not ?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

bass



Yes they can ! If you can point out something you did as being the cause of why God saved you, opposed to why He did not save another man with the same opportunity you had, that is grounds for boasting !

That goes not just for believing, but anything you did that made the difference from you being saved or lost !

Again, I said nowhere does the bible say believing is something man can boast about.

You asked:Who said the bible said that ?

Above, you said "Yes they can!" so it appears that YOU are saying the bible says the if one believes, then he can boast about his believing.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Those others were not everyone in the world without exception. It was some whom were being directly spoken to.

And if they did believe, and think that is why God saved them, then they also believe in salvation by their works !

So where does the bible say some have to believe and others do not have to believe in order to be saved?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Thats who Paul was speaking to was it not ?

So only the jailer had to believe to be saved, no one else has to believe?

What about those to whom Paul was writing in Rom 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. "?

 

[savedbygrace57]

So where does the bible say some have to believe and others do not have to believe in order to be saved?

All who are saved must believe to be saved. However none can believe to get saved !

Men believe because they are saved, and believing is the evidence of it !

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

All who are saved must believe to be saved. However none can believe to get saved !

Men believe because they are saved, and believing is the evidence of it !

So now you are saying people are saved while they are still in unbelief.

WHere does the bible teach this? Jn 3:18 "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

John said that those who do not believer are condemned already, yet you say they are saved.

 

[savedbygrace57]

So now you are saying people are saved while they are still in
unbelief.

Thats not what I said. I said this:

All who are saved must believe to be saved. However none can
believe to get saved !

Men believe because they are saved, and
believing is the evidence of it !

 

[savedbygrace57]

bass

John said that those who do not believer are condemned already, yet you say
they are saved.

Some are condemned already, and that is why do not believe. A condemned person cannot believe, only a saved person can.

Now anyone that Jesus died for, cannot be condemned by God ! Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

bass



Some are condemned already, and that is why do not believe. A condemned person cannot believe, only a saved person can.

Now anyone that Jesus died for, cannot be condemned by God ! Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Where did John say SOME that believeth not is condemned already?

 

[savedbygrace57]

Where did John say SOME that believeth not is condemned already?

He does not have to. Those Jesus Christ died for are not condemned ! Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

He does not have to. Those Jesus Christ died for are not condemned ! Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

What kind of response is "he does not have to"???

You nor your theology speak for John.

Christ died for every single person, so no one is condmened, so you believe in Universalism?

Rom 8 does not undo what John said. John said "he that believeth not is condemned already". John did not make any exceptions like you are trying to do inorder to protect your theology.

 

[savedbygrace57]

bass

What kind of response is "he does not have to"???

The kind I gave you. John does not say a lot of things that the bible teaches !

Christ died for every single person,

No He did not. Not the Christ of the bible, maybe the one you have created in your imagination. And the People Christ did die for, can never be condemned ! Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.