Ernest T. Bass
Member
I just cannot get savedbygrace57 to tell me if "not of works" means Paul is eliminating all types of works or just some works...he just keeps giving me the definition of works.
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I just cannot get savedbygrace57 to tell me if "not of works" means Paul is eliminating all types of works or just some works...he just keeps giving me the definition of works.
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
In the definition of works ergon it reads:
business, employment, that which any one is occupied
a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking
2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind
3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that
which is less than work
One of the definitions, that which anyone is occupied !
That word occupied is defined as:
to engage or employ the mind, energy, or attention of:
Employ the mind:
tokeepbusyoratwork
Engaging or employing the Mind is a work !
A Person believes with their Mind, so if you say that you are saved from your sins BECAUSE you believed, then you are advocating Salvation by works and consequently reject this Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
See, if one is saved because of their believing, or responding then they have cause to boast about what they did !
Ernest T. Bass
Member
Where does the bible say one can boast if he believes? Where does the bible say belieiving earns or merits salvation?
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
In the definition of works ergon it reads:
business, employment, that which any one is occupied
a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking
2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind
3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that
which is less than work
One of the definitions, that which anyone is occupied !
That word occupied is defined as:
to engage or employ the mind, energy, or attention of:
Employ the mind:
tokeepbusyoratwork
Engaging or employing the Mind is a work !
A Person believes with their Mind, so if you say that you are saved from your sins BECAUSE you believed, then you are advocating Salvation by works and consequently reject this Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
See, if one is saved because of their believing, or responding then they have cause to boast about what they did !
This makes no sense as the responding can only happen after the grace to salvation has been received which as we have all agreed comes from God not us so that we might not boast in that which has happened. I have used the term "responded" in previous posts but on reflection a more accurate term would be "to declare" which is that once salvation has been received (of and by God only) we in acknowledgement of what God has done for us declare that salvation has come to us not of ourselves but of God.
John O
E
Elijah674
Guest
No Loving Works needed we hear with proof of ones 
FAITH! ! This is transported from another site & might be of interest here? If not, just Void it out like many do with the Law of God.
____
[FONT=Verdana,arial]Verbatim wrote: [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,arial]They are "waterless" windswept clouds, trees without fruit; being spiritually lifeless.[/FONT]
___________________
Hi, you post Jude, and omit these verses.
[11] Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
[12] These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
[13] Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
_________
Yes, and I realize that Tex is still spiritually carnal, + Rev. 3:16 COLD,yet, there is seen if you look closely, that there is MORE HOPE there than for theses Lukewarm ones!
There is in the above the word of SECOND DEATH. Baptists teach Born Again and can surely be these ones! And Tex even states that she has never been Born Again to die the second death, right? And 'winds'??? Who today have been teaching the 'winds' of false doctrine any longer than Baptists???
And the way of Cain??? He was the first son from Adam + Eve and never had we ever found the slightest hint that he had ever been outside of the required Gospel untile he reached the mature age of farming. Surely he would have been a example of [WORKING OBEDIENCE] shortly before this. Even then Christ God Himself gave him another opportunity for [WORKING OBEDIENCE] befor he was given up to his new DESIRED master!
Gen. 4
[2] And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
[3] And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.
(not much different than the Rev. 17:1-5 ones sun worship satanic fruit stuff of today, while still professing 'blind disobedient faith'.)
[4] And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
[5] But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
[6] And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
[7] If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
And surely there comes a time that God can just not reach a person, church, or an whole denomination any more, as the Holy Spirit can just NO LONGER reach them. Matt. 12:31-32, and these ones are by far the most DANGEROUS to the cause of God He documents! Luke 12:47-48
[47] And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
[48] But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
Surely these here on earth in the USA have been blessed beyond measures with last day knowledge & wisdom, yet, they have not changed one iota in satan's false doctrines!
--Elijah
FAITH! ! This is transported from another site & might be of interest here? If not, just Void it out like many do with the Law of God.____
[FONT=Verdana,arial]Verbatim wrote: [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,arial]They are "waterless" windswept clouds, trees without fruit; being spiritually lifeless.[/FONT]
___________________
Hi, you post Jude, and omit these verses.
[11] Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
[12] These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
[13] Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
_________
Yes, and I realize that Tex is still spiritually carnal, + Rev. 3:16 COLD,yet, there is seen if you look closely, that there is MORE HOPE there than for theses Lukewarm ones!
There is in the above the word of SECOND DEATH. Baptists teach Born Again and can surely be these ones! And Tex even states that she has never been Born Again to die the second death, right? And 'winds'??? Who today have been teaching the 'winds' of false doctrine any longer than Baptists???
And the way of Cain??? He was the first son from Adam + Eve and never had we ever found the slightest hint that he had ever been outside of the required Gospel untile he reached the mature age of farming. Surely he would have been a example of [WORKING OBEDIENCE] shortly before this. Even then Christ God Himself gave him another opportunity for [WORKING OBEDIENCE] befor he was given up to his new DESIRED master!
Gen. 4
[2] And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
[3] And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.
(not much different than the Rev. 17:1-5 ones sun worship satanic fruit stuff of today, while still professing 'blind disobedient faith'.)
[4] And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
[5] But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
[6] And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
[7] If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
And surely there comes a time that God can just not reach a person, church, or an whole denomination any more, as the Holy Spirit can just NO LONGER reach them. Matt. 12:31-32, and these ones are by far the most DANGEROUS to the cause of God He documents! Luke 12:47-48
[47] And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
[48] But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
Surely these here on earth in the USA have been blessed beyond measures with last day knowledge & wisdom, yet, they have not changed one iota in satan's false doctrines!
--Elijah
dadof10
Member
I just cannot get savedbygrace57 to tell me if "not of works" means Paul is eliminating all types of works or just some works...he just keeps giving me the definition of works.
4500 posts and counting. I wonder how many are just cutting and pasting the same thing over and over...:toofunny
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
johno
Same thing, then you are saved by your receiving, an act of yours right ?
Same thing, then you are saved by your receiving, an act of yours right ?
E
Elijah674
Guest
It seems that your 'postings' are getting more & more FORCEFULLY PRESUMPTOUS? Psalms 19:13.
Are you also documenting to the accurate Eccl. 12:13-14 Record Books that you are eternally saved?? Make it very PLAIN for 'some' here & not just a need to study the Record Books for so long, when we get to heaven, ok? (1 Cor. 6:2-3)
And forum: As for me?? 'i' have already made that judgement call [[for the present]] time. Did you get that? In other words I find the post persons [[POSTS]] as seen in Luke 12:47-48 along with all kinds of satans stuff that will cause mankind to be eternally lost. Again... he could still repent perhaps if he has not already past that 'time of maturity' limit. Matt. 12:31-32.
--Elijah
We are not saved by works. That is a fact, but can we be saved without works?
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
1Ti 2:9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
1Ti 2:10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
1Ti 5:9 Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man,
1Ti 5:10 Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Tit 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
This one says a great deal, we either acknowledge God or deny Him by our works.
Tit 2:7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Apparently God knows us by our works...
Rev 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
He says this of the churches. After conversion, works seem to be a very important part of Christianity.
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
1Ti 2:9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
1Ti 2:10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
1Ti 5:9 Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man,
1Ti 5:10 Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Tit 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
This one says a great deal, we either acknowledge God or deny Him by our works.
Tit 2:7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Apparently God knows us by our works...
Rev 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
He says this of the churches. After conversion, works seem to be a very important part of Christianity.
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
jn 8:32
I do not believe you Truly believe that statement. Then how is one saved ? Will all men be saved without exception ?
I do not believe you Truly believe that statement. Then how is one saved ? Will all men be saved without exception ?
Ernest T. Bass
Member
Nowhere does the bible say believing is something man can boast about. God has commanded man to believe, as the jailer was commanded to believe (Acts 16). So when man obeys God's will in believing he is working righteousness and is therefore reckoned righteous by God, 1 Jn 3:7.
Lk 17;10 "So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do."
Believing is one's duty to do and even after believing one is still an unprofitable servant and has nothing to boast about.
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
bass
Who said the bible said that ?
Who said the bible said that ?
Jethro Bodine
Member
Salvation is by the grace of God, period. We access that grace through faith. Not through correct behavior, but through the faith that Jesus is the required sacrifice that removes sin guilt. Having trust in the blood of Christ is not behavior.
Our behavior does not add to what the blood of Christ can do all by itself--pay the price for sins committed, forgiving that sin guilt and making a person righteous before God. Our behavior is the manifest expression of what we believe. Our behavior is what shows whether the faith we claim to have is a genuine faith in the forgiveness of God.
It is impossible to earn the removal of your sin guilt through righteous behavior. Impossible. The only hope we have is for God to have mercy on us and forgive our sin debt outright. And we can tell who truly believes that and has done that...by how they behave. Disobedience shows contempt for the forgiveness of Christ. Obedience shows belief and trust in the forgiveness of Christ.
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
bass
Believing is something man does, a doing, which is a work !
The word work is the greek word ergon:
business, employment, that which any one is occupied
a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking
2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind
3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work
The word is translated doing here Rom 2:7
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
So you believe man is saved by works ! Which is contrary to scripture Eph 2:9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works [or doings], lest any man should boast.
Titus 3:5
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Believing is something man does, a doing, which is a work !
The word work is the greek word ergon:
business, employment, that which any one is occupied
a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking
2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind
3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work
The word is translated doing here Rom 2:7
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
So you believe man is saved by works ! Which is contrary to scripture Eph 2:9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works [or doings], lest any man should boast.
Titus 3:5
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Drew
Member
Paul disagrees:
God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
Please give us an explanation for why Paul wrote these words if he does not believe that final salvation - eternal life- is granted according to what we do.
Drew
Member
Romans 3:27-28 in the NASB:
27Where then is boasting? It is excluded By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
What are these works of the Law that cannot justify? “Good works†in general, or the practices or “works†of the Law of Moses?
Paul is addressing the Law of Moses here, not “good worksâ€. The “boast†(verse 27) is not the boast of the person who thinks he can climb to heaven by a ladder of good works, it is the boast of the Jew who thinks that being part of the ethnic group who do Law of Moses will justify him.
This is borne out by verse 29 which makes no sense if "good works" or "or obedience to a general law" is in view in verse 28, but which makes perfect sense if the works are those of the Law of Moses:
29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,
Paul is amplifying the implications of verse 27 and 28, focusing on how the Jew and Gentile are both members of God’s family. In verses 27 and 28, he has written that “works†do not justify. In verse 29, it becomes clear that these are the works of Law of Moses since it is by doing the works of Law of Moses that the Jew could boast "God is God of the Jews only". What marks out the nation Israel from the Gentile? Possession and doing of Law of Moses, of course. Not good works.
27Where then is boasting? It is excluded By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
What are these works of the Law that cannot justify? “Good works†in general, or the practices or “works†of the Law of Moses?
Paul is addressing the Law of Moses here, not “good worksâ€. The “boast†(verse 27) is not the boast of the person who thinks he can climb to heaven by a ladder of good works, it is the boast of the Jew who thinks that being part of the ethnic group who do Law of Moses will justify him.
This is borne out by verse 29 which makes no sense if "good works" or "or obedience to a general law" is in view in verse 28, but which makes perfect sense if the works are those of the Law of Moses:
29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,
Paul is amplifying the implications of verse 27 and 28, focusing on how the Jew and Gentile are both members of God’s family. In verses 27 and 28, he has written that “works†do not justify. In verse 29, it becomes clear that these are the works of Law of Moses since it is by doing the works of Law of Moses that the Jew could boast "God is God of the Jews only". What marks out the nation Israel from the Gentile? Possession and doing of Law of Moses, of course. Not good works.
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
Man is not saved by moral responsibiblty !