Saving faith with works is saving faith by works

[RBDERRICK]

The gospel of being saved by faith, not by works, contradicts the supplemental teaching of being saved with works following.

The problem is it depends on a game with words, that accepts 'with' works, but rejects 'by' works, which has no grammatical significance, and is not ever used by God to make a difference pertaining to faith and works.

It's why Paul condemns playing word games with the gospel and doctrine of Christ, because it only produces endless useless arguments over words, rather than promoting godly living;

1Ti 6:4
He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

And as well all disengenuous games, it backfires in the end. In this case, salvation by faith, not by works, fails any time works accompany salvation, and are accepted with salvation. Such as being saved with works following.

Being saved by faith alone without works, forbids ever being saved with any works at any time, where at the first or following, at a later time.

Is not salvation by faith, also with faith? Yes. Is not salvation by faith always with faith? Yes. So then the gospel of salvation by faith can never be without faith.

And so, if salvation is ever with works, then salvation must be by works, else salvation with faith is not by faith.

Therefore, if someone preaches the gospel of faith, not by works, then the salvation must always be without works, and only by faith alone. Esle salvation with works becomes by works.

But if anyone preaches the gospel of salvation by faith with works following, then they must preach being saved by works following. Else by faith can be without faith, since with works cannot be by works.

Therefore, the gospel of salvation by faith with works following, is being saved by faith and not yet by works.

This is why justification by works is with works following salvation by faith.

God's salvation is never by faith alone, which would be never with works now nor later. That is the false gospel of salvation by faith alone without works, and never by works.

The gospel we see in Eph 2 and James 2, is that salvation is by faith with works following, to be justified by works with faith.

If no man can be justified by works with saving faith, then no man can be saved with works by faith. Else salvation with faith is not by faith, even as salvation with works is not by works.

Making the difference between faith and works is one thing, but changing the divine principle of by and with faith, to with and not by works, also must then apply to with the will of God, and not by His will.

We add Titus 3 to make difference between the works to be justified by, and those works never justified by God: No works of man's own will and righteousness, which can be boasted of, can justify any man with God.

Only God's works following salvation by faith, that we do through Christ Jesus, can justify every man who is saved by faith in God.

1Pe 1:18

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

1Pe 1:19

But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

1Pe 1:20

Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

1Pe 1:21

Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

 

[JLB]

The gospel of being saved by faith, not by works, contradicts the supplemental teaching of being saved with works following.

The problem is it depends on a game with words, that accepts 'with' works, but rejects 'by' works, which has no grammatical significance, and is not ever used by God to make a difference pertaining to faith and works.

It's why Paul condemns playing word games with the gospel and doctrine of Christ, because it only produces endless useless arguments over words, rather than promoting godly living;

1Ti 6:4
He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

And as well all disengenuous games, it backfires in the end. In this case, salvation by faith, not by works, fails any time works accompany salvation, and are accepted with salvation. Such as being saved with works following.

Being saved by faith alone without works, forbids ever being saved with any works at any time, where at the first or following, at a later time.

Is not salvation by faith, also with faith? Yes. Is not salvation by faith always with faith? Yes. So then the gospel of salvation by faith can never be without faith.

And so, if salvation is ever with works, then salvation must be by works, else salvation with faith is not by faith.

Therefore, if someone preaches the gospel of faith, not by works, then the salvation must always be without works, and only by faith alone. Esle salvation with works becomes by works.

But if anyone preaches the gospel of salvation by faith with works following, then they must preach being saved by works following. Else by faith can be without faith, since with works cannot be by works.

Therefore, the gospel of salvation by faith with works following, is being saved by faith and not yet by works.

This is why justification by works is with works following salvation by faith.

God's salvation is never by faith alone, which would be never with works now nor later. That is the false gospel of salvation by faith alone without works, and never by works.

The gospel we see in Eph 2 and James 2, is that salvation is by faith with works following, to be justified by works with faith.

If no man can be justified by works with saving faith, then no man can be saved with works by faith. Else salvation with faith is not by faith, even as salvation with works is not by works.

Making the difference between faith and works is one thing, but changing the divine principle of by and with faith, to with and not by works, also must then apply to with the will of God, and not by His will.

We add Titus 3 to make difference between the works to be justified by, and those works never justified by God: No works of man's own will and righteousness, which can be boasted of, can justify any man with God.

Only God's works following salvation by faith, that we do through Christ Jesus, can justify every man who is saved by faith in God.

1Pe 1:18

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

1Pe 1:19

But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

1Pe 1:20

Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

1Pe 1:21

Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Obedience is the "work" being referred to concerning, salvation, or justification.

In other words we are saved by obeying the Gospel.


But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:16-17


This is referred to as the obedience of faith.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26


Obedience is the element that causes faith to "be alive", or "activated".

Without obedience, faith remains dead or dormant; inactive and unable to produce the intended divine result, just as a body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without "works", the action of obedience, is dead.


For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26





JLB

 

[Fastfredy0]

The gospel of being saved by faith, not by works, contradicts the supplemental teaching of being saved with works following.

The problem is it depends on a game with words, that accepts 'with' works, but rejects 'by' works, which has no grammatical significance, and is not ever used by God to make a difference pertaining to faith and works.

It's why Paul condemns playing word games with the gospel and doctrine of Christ, because it only produces endless useless arguments over words, rather than promoting godly living;

1Ti 6:4
He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

And as well all disengenuous games, it backfires in the end. In this case, salvation by faith, not by works, fails any time works accompany salvation, and are accepted with salvation. Such as being saved with works following.

Being saved by faith alone without works, forbids ever being saved with any works at any time, where at the first or following, at a later time.

Is not salvation by faith, also with faith? Yes. Is not salvation by faith always with faith? Yes. So then the gospel of salvation by faith can never be without faith.

And so, if salvation is ever with works, then salvation must be by works, else salvation with faith is not by faith.

Therefore, if someone preaches the gospel of faith, not by works, then the salvation must always be without works, and only by faith alone. Esle salvation with works becomes by works.

But if anyone preaches the gospel of salvation by faith with works following, then they must preach being saved by works following. Else by faith can be without faith, since with works cannot be by works.

Therefore, the gospel of salvation by faith with works following, is being saved by faith and not yet by works.

This is why justification by works is with works following salvation by faith.

God's salvation is never by faith alone, which would be never with works now nor later. That is the false gospel of salvation by faith alone without works, and never by works.

The gospel we see in Eph 2 and James 2, is that salvation is by faith with works following, to be justified by works with faith.

If no man can be justified by works with saving faith, then no man can be saved with works by faith. Else salvation with faith is not by faith, even as salvation with works is not by works.

Making the difference between faith and works is one thing, but changing the divine principle of by and with faith, to with and not by works, also must then apply to with the will of God, and not by His will.

We add Titus 3 to make difference between the works to be justified by, and those works never justified by God: No works of man's own will and righteousness, which can be boasted of, can justify any man with God.

Only God's works following salvation by faith, that we do through Christ Jesus, can justify every man who is saved by faith in God.

Too much of a "word salad" for me to follow. Aside: "BY" indicates a casual relationship, "WITH" does not imply a cause or effect IMO.

Premise 1: Eph. 1:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Premise 2: WORK is a physical or mental effort or activity directed toward the production or accomplishment of something.
Premise 3: John 14:15 If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
Conclusion: One is saved by faith alone and not works. The effect of FAITH is works. Thus, works is evidence of faith but WORKS is not the cause of salvation; rather, the result of salvation.

.... or read Gal 5:2-6 that says one is separated from God if he thinks he is saved by the work of circumcision and the implication being one is separated from God if he thinks he is saved by any work (see premise 2 for definition of WORK)

 

[Hopeful 2]

The gospel of being saved by faith, not by works, contradicts the supplemental teaching of being saved with works following.

The problem is it depends on a game with words, that accepts 'with' works, but rejects 'by' works, which has no grammatical significance, and is not ever used by God to make a difference pertaining to faith and works.

It's why Paul condemns playing word games with the gospel and doctrine of Christ, because it only produces endless useless arguments over words, rather than promoting godly living;

1Ti 6:4
He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

And as well all disengenuous games, it backfires in the end. In this case, salvation by faith, not by works, fails any time works accompany salvation, and are accepted with salvation. Such as being saved with works following.

Being saved by faith alone without works, forbids ever being saved with any works at any time, where at the first or following, at a later time.

Is not salvation by faith, also with faith? Yes. Is not salvation by faith always with faith? Yes. So then the gospel of salvation by faith can never be without faith.

And so, if salvation is ever with works, then salvation must be by works, else salvation with faith is not by faith.

Therefore, if someone preaches the gospel of faith, not by works, then the salvation must always be without works, and only by faith alone. Esle salvation with works becomes by works.

But if anyone preaches the gospel of salvation by faith with works following, then they must preach being saved by works following. Else by faith can be without faith, since with works cannot be by works.

Therefore, the gospel of salvation by faith with works following, is being saved by faith and not yet by works.

This is why justification by works is with works following salvation by faith.

God's salvation is never by faith alone, which would be never with works now nor later. That is the false gospel of salvation by faith alone without works, and never by works.

The gospel we see in Eph 2 and James 2, is that salvation is by faith with works following, to be justified by works with faith.

If no man can be justified by works with saving faith, then no man can be saved with works by faith. Else salvation with faith is not by faith, even as salvation with works is not by works.

Making the difference between faith and works is one thing, but changing the divine principle of by and with faith, to with and not by works, also must then apply to with the will of God, and not by His will.

We add Titus 3 to make difference between the works to be justified by, and those works never justified by God: No works of man's own will and righteousness, which can be boasted of, can justify any man with God.

Only God's works following salvation by faith, that we do through Christ Jesus, can justify every man who is saved by faith in God.

1Pe 1:18

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

1Pe 1:19

But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

1Pe 1:20

Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

1Pe 1:21

Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

When you discuss "works", you need to mention which works you refer to.
Paul preached against works, but those works were "of the Law".
Circumcision, dietary rules, feast keeping, sabbath keeping, tithing, etc., cannot save a man.
Paul also said that charity was greater than hope or faith.
Charity is "deeds" done for others out of a loving heart.

Some take the "anti-works" doctrine to the extreme, effectually outlawing repentance from sin , baptism, and ultimately obedience to God.

 

[JLB]

Paul preached against works, but those works were "of the Law".
Circumcision, dietary rules, feast keeping, sabbath keeping, tithing, etc., cannot save a man.

 

[JLB]

Conclusion: One is saved by faith alone and not works.

Where does it say in scripture we are saved by faith alone?

Question:

• Do you believe it is necessary to obey the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved?

He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36

 

[DavidT]

I choose to believe what Apostle Paul preached, that we can ONLY be saved by FAITH, and NOT by works... The matter is simple:

Rom 4:13-16
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
KJV

Gal 2:16
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
KJV

 

[RBDERRICK]

Obedience is the "work" being referred to concerning, salvation, or justification.

In other words we are saved by obeying the Gospel.

Exactly. Trying to say we are saved with obedience to the gospel, but not by obeying the gospel, is just a senseless play on words.

God uses the same word when declaring we are saved by grace, as when He declares we are justified by works.

The task of faith is to reconcile all Scripture together, not to play games and say 'by' does not always mean 'by' to God, or 'with' does not always mean 'by' pertaining to faith and works.

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:16-17

Exactly. We are justified by obeying God, and no man is justified by not obeying God.

With God, believing Him is obeying Him, and not obeying Him is not believing Him.

Whether 'with' or 'by', faith without works is dead, and justification is by works with faith.

This is referred to as the obedience of faith.

Thank you very much.

Romans
{1:5} By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: {1:6} Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26

There you go. Only by believing the words of God as written, can any man be justified by obeying them.

Romans
{2:12} For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; {2:13} (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

James
{1:22} But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Obedience is the element that causes faith to "be alive", or "activated".

Amen again. God calls it perfecting faith with obedient works, to be justified with Him in heart and life:

James
{2:21} Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? {2:22} Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Without obedience, faith remains dead or dormant; inactive and unable to produce the intended divine result, just as a body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without "works", the action of obedience, is dead.

You're preaching to the singing choir of God:

Psalms
{5:11} But let all those that put their trust in thee rejoice: let them ever shout for joy, because thou defendest them: let them also that love thy name be joyful in thee.

Not everyone teaches the Bible clearly, and simply repeats what God says sensibly:

Neh
{8:8} So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused [them] to understand the reading.

1 Cor
{14:7} And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?

2 Cor
{3:12} Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26

True again. The only way faith can be alive with the Spirit to save the soul, is if the body is alive to do God's will.

Romans
{6:11} Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Faith alone without doing the obedient works of God, has neither Spirit nor life from God.

Ephesians
{2:8} For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

The gift of saving faith from God, is the faith that obeys Him. Any other faith of our own, that obeys not God, is not the faith of Jesus who always obeys the Father and pleases Him.

Faith without doing the works of God through Jesus Christ, is one's own faith alone and dead to God's saving grace.

People are preaching their own gospel of faith, in order to justify themselves without obeying God in spirit, in deed, and in truth.

God saves the life with the soul, not any soul apart from how we live.

Ezek
{18:4} Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Galatians
{6:7} Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. {6:8} For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Some try to say their works are only judged for rewards in heaven, and yet God makes it very clear that our works of good or evil are judged the same as others, whether unto everlasting life or shame.

Daniel
{12:2} And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.

JLB

Thank you very much. Very refreshing. Your words are altogether pure with those of God.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I choose to believe what Apostle Paul preached, that we can ONLY be saved by FAITH, and NOT by works... The matter is simple:

Rom 4:13-16
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
KJV

Gal 2:16
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
KJV

You are right, if the works in question are "of the Law".

 

[JLB]

Exactly. We are justified by obeying God, and no man is justified by not obeying God.

Yes those that deny the truth of scripture are promoting that we are justified by disobedience.

That is the gospel of Satan.

Those who promote a doctrine of demons will find themselves to be enemies of God, in which God Himself will make sure to send a strong delusion to them so that they will believe the lie!

Which the scriptures refer to as The Lie.

Paul says it this way -

The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12


The Lie is what Satan deceived Eve into believing and therefore obeying in the garden.

Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. Genesis 3:4

• Go ahead, Eve and disobey God (sin), you won't die...

JLB

 

[DavidT]

You are right, if the works in question are "of the Law".

Wrong, Paul made a distinction between 'works' vs. Faith, that Faith only can save.

So 'anything'... that is NOT of FAITH is thus about the law which cannot save.

And believing on Jesus Christ The Savior is an act of FAITH, not of the law.

 

[JLB]

Wrong, Paul made a distinction between 'works' vs. Faith, that Faith only can save.

So 'anything'... that is NOT of FAITH is thus about the law which cannot save.

And believing on Jesus Christ The Savior is an act of FAITH, not of the law.

The law of Moses was abolished at the cross.

That is Paul’s point.

Now under the New Covenant we have the law of Christ.

Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. Galatians 6:2

We as followers of Christ must follow His teachings and His commandments.



JLB

 

[DavidT]

The law of Moses was abolished at the cross.

That is Paul’s point.

Now under the New Covenant we have the law of Christ.

Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. Galatians 6:2

We as followers of Christ must follow His teachings and His commandments.



JLB

I shall continue to refuse... to succumb to the false teaching that believing on Jesus Christ The Savior is a 'work' associated with obeying any law of God. Christ's Salvation is always... by Faith, by belief, and not of even the idea of 'works'.

Those who keep pushing ideas otherwise are simply attempting to drive a wedge into what Paul taught that we are saved only by Faith and not by works.

If they can get us to believe our Faith is a type of 'work', then they think they can supplant that idea further with the false lie that Faith somehow involved following God's law. Christ and His Apostles taught against that lie.

 

[JLB]

I shall continue to refuse... to succumb to the false teaching that believing on Jesus Christ The Savior is a 'work' associated with obeying any law of God. Christ's Salvation is always... by Faith, by belief, and not of even the idea of 'works'.

Those who keep pushing ideas otherwise are simply attempting to drive a wedge into what Paul taught that we are saved only by Faith and not by works.

If they can get us to believe our Faith is a type of 'work', then they think they can supplant that idea further with the false lie that Faith somehow involved following God's law. Christ and His Apostles taught against that lie.

His Apostles taught the church the obedience of faith.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith. Romans 16:26


Disobedience, which is sin, to His commandments as well as His doctrine leads a person away from Christ.

Please read carefully.

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9


His teaching and commandments are about love; loving God and loving our brother.

Those who disregard His teachings are those who hate God and hate His people.


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

I know you can read and understand these words.

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

Those who choose the way of disobeying the Lord and refuse to submit and obey His word are those who are sent to the lake of fire.


He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Revelation 21:7-8

Christians who are liars go to the lake of fire.




JLB

 

[DavidT]

The LIARS are those particularly of the crept in unawares that keep trying to PUSH the keeping of God's law in order to be saved, one of the matters that Christ's early Church had to deal with, the converts of the blind Pharisees that according to Apostle Paul were trying to pervert the True Gospel of Jesus Christ with "another gospel" which is no gospel.

Rom 3:26-28
26 To declare, I say, at this time His righteousness: that He might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
KJV

Rom 9:32-33
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, "Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed."
KJV

Rom 11:6
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
KJV

Gal 2:16
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
KJV

Gal 3:2
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
KJV

Gal 3:5
5 He therefore That ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth He it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
KJV

Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
KJV

 

[Hopeful 2]

Wrong, Paul made a distinction between 'works' vs. Faith, that Faith only can save.

The works in question were of the Mosaic Law.
Circumcision, dietary rules, sabbath keeping, feast keeping, tithing, etc., cannot save anyone.

So 'anything'... that is NOT of FAITH is thus about the law which cannot save.

Right, the Law cannot save.

And believing on Jesus Christ The Savior is an act of FAITH, not of the law.

True, but so is repentance from sin, water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, and enduring faithfully until the end.
All are things "of faith".

 

[DavidT]

The works in question were of the Mosaic Law.
Circumcision, dietary rules, sabbath keeping, feast keeping, tithing, etc., cannot save anyone.

Right, the Law cannot save.

True, but so is repentance from sin, water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, and enduring faithfully until the end.
All are things "of faith".

Like I had said, there are some among Christian brethren that are like the Pharisee converts Apostle Paul had to contend with, which try to push law keeping as a requirement to be saved. And I understand why Jewish converts to Christ have a natural propensity towards doing that. It's because like Genesis 49:10 revealed that care of the law will not depart from Judah until Shiloh (Jesus) comes. Thus it is perfectly OK to keep God's laws which Jesus did not nail to His cross, but not to use them as a requirement of having Faith on Jesus Christ and being saved by Faith on Jesus Christ.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Like I had said, there are some among Christian brethren that are like the Pharisee converts Apostle Paul had to contend with, which try to push law keeping as a requirement to be saved.

Agreed, though since the meeting in Jerusalem in Acts 15, their contentions should have ceased.

And I understand why Jewish converts to Christ have a natural propensity towards doing that.

If they have access to the same NT writings we have, those propensities should have ceased.
They are groundless.

It's because like Genesis 49:10 revealed that care of the law will not depart from Judah until Shiloh (Jesus) comes. Thus it is perfectly OK to keep God's laws which Jesus did not nail to His cross, but not to use them as a requirement of having Faith on Jesus Christ and being saved by Faith on Jesus Christ.

As He has already "come", the Law's time is over...according to Jewish scripture.

Which parts of the Law do you think were not nailed to the cross ?
I know that 9 of the original 10 are now written in our hearts, but are there any others ?

 

[RBDERRICK]

"BY" indicates a casual relationship, "WITH" does not imply a cause or effect IMO.

People can define words all they wish, but God's use of words is all that matters, since it's His salvation, not our's.

Psalm
{3:8} Salvation [belongeth] unto the LORD:

God says we are saved by and with faith, justified by and with works.

Playing word games to justify oneself, not by works and without works, only lasts untill the grave.

Conclusion: One is saved by faith alone and not works.

James
{2:20} But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

And so we see how playing word games leads to preaching the opposite of God's words.

.... or read Gal 5:2-6 that says one is separated from God if he thinks he is saved by the work of circumcision

and the implication being one is separated from God if he thinks he is saved by any work (see premise 2 for definition of WORK)

Sinners can implicate anything they wish.

Without doing the will of God, no man is saved nor justified by Jesus Christ.

 

[RBDERRICK]

When you discuss "works", you need to mention which works you refer to.

True, and I do elsewhere. This thread is a simple retort to people playing word games, to make a difference between 'by' works and 'with' works.

Paul preached against works, but those works were "of the Law".

As well as our own righteousness and philanthropy: Any works man can boast of.

The only works justified by God, are works done solely through Jesus Christ.

Luke
{22:42} Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

1 Cor
{15:10} But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace [which was bestowed] upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Circumcision, dietary rules, feast keeping, sabbath keeping, tithing, etc., cannot save a man.
Paul also said that charity was greater than hope or faith.
Charity is "deeds" done for others out of a loving heart.

True, and God's charity is on done out of Jesus Christ's loving heart in us.

Paul is showing how people define love and charity in different ways, but God only defines His love and charity in one way:

John
{14:6} Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Some take the "anti-works" doctrine to the extreme, effectually outlawing repentance from sin , baptism, and ultimately obedience to God.

Exactly. Though they don't really 'outlaw' repentance, they do downgrade it to ancilliary repentance at their own will and pace.

And, they forbid any works having anything to do with their salvation and justification. So that they end up preaching against doing the will of God, to be justified by God. Or, they play the nonsense game of turning believing alone into doing something worthwhile.

And of course, it's preached by them still doing sinful dead works... The depths to which people will go, in order to save and justify themselves by their own faith alone, knows no end.

The myriad ways in which they twist Scripture, words, and reason, in order to do so, is a bottomless pit indeed.

Rev
{2:24} But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.