Saving faith with works is saving faith by works

[DavidT]

If they have access to the same NT writings we have, those propensities should have ceased.
They are groundless.

I agree their inward desire to want to keep God's law and teach it opposes The Gospel Promise by Faith, but like I showed with the Genesis 49:10 prophecy, that the Jews ("Judah") would maintain care of God's law all the way to Lord Jesus' future return, that reveals God put that desire in them. So the matter requires a deeper understanding why God has done that...

Think for a moment, if Christian society no longer held to 'any' of God's laws from The Old Testament? I mean, Apostle Paul never said all of God's laws were nailed to Christ's cross, but only the handwriting of ordinances in the law. It is still against God's law to do murder, thefts, rape, perjury, etc., even as Apostle Paul showed in 1 Timothy 1 and 1 Corinthians 6. And Paul did say that the law was NOT made for the righteous, but for the sinner and the ungodly.

Thus there is a purpose for the Jews having a propensity towards keeping and teaching God's laws, and God put that desire in them. (No, I'm not Jewish either.). That we should help them understand, in contrast to the Promise by Faith first given through Abraham, which was The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Thus under The Gospel of Jesus Christ, they still are not to try and use keeping of the law as a requirement of Christ's Salvation, which is by Faith only. The Orthodox Jews are not going to heed The Gospel, and some of them try to creep in among Christ's Church, and that is something those of us in Christ need to watch out for, and contend, like Apostle Paul did in Acts and Galatians.

As He has already "come", the Law's time is over...according to Jewish scripture.

Which parts of the Law do you think were not nailed to the cross ?
I know that 9 of the original 10 are now written in our hearts, but are there any others ?

I think I already covered that. Again, see what Apostle Paul taught about the law in 1 Timothy 1, and 1 Corinthians 6. He quoted things covered in God's law.

Gen 49:10
10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
KJV

On a deeper note, I can grasp a deeper purpose for God having 'blinded' the majority of unbelieving Jews per Romans 11. One of the reasons would be their ordained duty in keeping His law for the peace and prosperity of even Christian society, even though they at present reject Jesus Christ. Apostle Paul showed they won't reject Jesus forever, but when the fulness of the Gentiles comes in, their rejection will change (see end of Zechariah 12).

 

[Fastfredy0]

We are justified by faith (Rom. 5:1). Where in the bible does it say we are justified by "works"?

People can define words all they wish, but God's use of words is all that matters, since it's His salvation, not our's.

Agreed

God says we are saved by and with faith, justified by and with works.

We are justified by faith (Rom. 5:1). Where in the bible does it say we are justified by "works"?

Playing word games to justify oneself, not by works and without works, only lasts untill the grave.

Words have meanings. If you don't use the proper word meaning then you do not communicate truth.

Without doing the will of God, no man is saved nor justified by Jesus Christ.

That is a subjective statement. No one does the will of God 100% of the time.
Hmmmm .... the thief on the cross was justified ... I doubt he did the "will of God" other than to believe.

 

[Hopeful 2]

True, and I do elsewhere. This thread is a simple retort to people playing word games, to make a difference between 'by' works and 'with' works.

When shown that the only works Paul refuted were the works of the Mosaic Law, all other conversations regarding works can cease.

As well as our own righteousness and philanthropy: Any works man can boast of.

That is just an extension of the anti-works false doctrine.

The only works justified by God, are works done solely through Jesus Christ.

Works that are the natural outcome of conversion, come after the conversion.

True, and God's charity is on done out of Jesus Christ's loving heart in us.

That again shows it is post-conversion.

Paul is showing how people define love and charity in different ways, but God only defines His love and charity in one way:
John
{14:6} Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

When a purveyor of the truth starts to discuss post-conversion works during a discussion regarding works vs. faith for salvation, he has strayed off topic.
Stay focused on the initial point.
That is..."the only works Paul wrote against were the works of the Mosaic Law".
Once your opponent agrees to that, then start with the post-conversion works discussions.

Exactly. Though they don't really 'outlaw' repentance, they do downgrade it to ancilliary repentance at their own will and pace.

I disagree.
I, and I pray you, know that without a real repentance from sin there is no salvation forthcoming.
The die-hard anti-works proponent has outlawed repentance from sin for salvation.

And, they forbid any works having anything to do with their salvation and justification. So that they end up preaching against doing the will of God, to be justified by God. Or, they play the nonsense game of turning believing alone into doing something worthwhile.

Isn't that "outlawing"?

And of course, it's preached by them still doing sinful dead works... The depths to which people will go, in order to save and justify themselves by their own faith alone, knows no end.

They are not looking for justification, just to be able to keep sinning.

The myriad ways in which they twist Scripture, words, and reason, in order to do so, is a bottomless pit indeed.

The "right" to keep sinning is the "idol" of the anti-works crowd.

Rev
{2:24} But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.

Rev 2:26..."And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:"
The anti-works crowd would call Jesus' commandments "works for salvation".
I am glad Jesus made it easy to keep His commands.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I agree their inward desire to want to keep God's law and teach it opposes The Gospel Promise by Faith,

Then why didn't they follow Paul instead of maintaining a now dead Law ?

but like I showed with the Genesis 49:10 prophecy, that the Jews ("Judah") would maintain care of God's law all the way to Lord Jesus' future return, that reveals God put that desire in them. So the matter requires a deeper understanding why God has done that...

The scrip' you used didn't mention "return".
Shiloh came, and the Law ended.

Think for a moment, if Christian society no longer held to 'any' of God's laws from The Old Testament? I mean, Apostle Paul never said all of God's laws were nailed to Christ's cross, but only the handwriting of ordinances in the law. It is still against God's law to do murder, thefts, rape, perjury, etc., even as Apostle Paul showed in 1 Timothy 1 and 1 Corinthians 6. And Paul did say that the law was NOT made for the righteous, but for the sinner and the ungodly.

As the divine nature of the reborn is instilled with nine of the first ten commandments, they will always be upheld.

Thus there is a purpose for the Jews having a propensity towards keeping and teaching God's laws, and God put that desire in them. (No, I'm not Jewish either.). That we should help them understand, in contrast to the Promise by Faith first given through Abraham, which was The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Thus under The Gospel of Jesus Christ, they still are not to try and use keeping of the law as a requirement of Christ's Salvation, which is by Faith only. The Orthodox Jews are not going to heed The Gospel, and some of them try to creep in among Christ's Church, and that is something those of us in Christ need to watch out for, and contend, like Apostle Paul did in Acts and Galatians.

Agreed, though I have never witnessed Jews trying to usurp Christ's church in real life.

I think I already covered that. Again, see what Apostle Paul taught about the law in 1 Timothy 1, and 1 Corinthians 6. He quoted things covered in God's law.
Gen 49:10
10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
KJV

On a deeper note, I can grasp a deeper purpose for God having 'blinded' the majority of unbelieving Jews per Romans 11. One of the reasons would be their ordained duty in keeping His law for the peace and prosperity of even Christian society, even though they at present reject Jesus Christ. Apostle Paul showed they won't reject Jesus forever, but when the fulness of the Gentiles comes in, their rejection will change (see end of Zechariah 12).

I don't feel that anything now dead by Christ can benefit anyone.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Which the scriptures refer to as The Lie.

I like it when we don't bind ourselves to translators, and clarify Bible truth. It's the original words of God to the prophets and apostles, that we must remain faithful to.

The lie is just as accurate as a lie. And I beleive the great lie of the ages is two ways: The sinful Jews that seek righteousness by works alone, and the sinful Christians that seek justification by faith alone.

It's their own works that the unbelieving Jews establish for their own righteousness. And it' s their own faith that the unrighteous Christians establish for their own justification.

They all remain wilfully blind to the only works God justifies us by: His good works done by His sons through the faith of His Son Jesus.

1 Cor
{15:10} But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace [which was bestowed] upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Col
{4:13} I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

The Lie is what Satan deceived Eve into believing and therefore obeying in the garden.

Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. Genesis 3:4

This is interesting. This is the obvious lie. The subtelty comes afterward.

Genesis
{3:5} For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

The truth is that God does know any person taking our own will to ourselves, and disobeying God's will, do become as gods on earth, knowing that we can indeed do whatever we set our minds to, whether good or evil.

The subtelty is that we can continue doing so forever. We are gods, as Jesus says, to whom the word is preached, but only until the grave.

Having the power of will by creation in God's image, is a two-edged sword. We can either use or abuse that power, whether to do the will of God as sons and abide forever, or to do our own will as gods and abide until the grave.

In the resurrection of our dead bodies, God judges our works unto justification and life, or unto condemnation and shame.

Psalms
{119:21} Thou hast rebuked the proud [that are] cursed, which do err from thy commandments.

{119:22} Remove from me reproach and contempt; for I have kept thy testimonies.

Daniel
{12:2} And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.

• Go ahead, Eve and disobey God (sin), you won't die...

Exactly. So simple just by grammar alone. Goid tells His own creatures, if we sin against Him, we will surely die. The devil tells us we surely won't.

This is the willing ignorance, that Peter rebukes scoffers for. It's the refusal to understand simple truth, that Jesus says Satan takes advantage of and steals away the truth sown in blind hearts after hearing His word.

I often have wondered if such scoffers act like they don't understand, or if they truly do not allow themselves to understand anything that would disrupt their own ideas and imaginations. That's when I began to understand what the Bible is saying about darkness not 'comprehending' the light.

John
{1:5} And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

People who blind themselves to simple truth, literally do not understand plain words, because they refuse to be corrected. Why? Because they are placing their own soul's trust in only what they want to believe, not in what God's says to all of us.

They make up a doctrinal card to justify themselves by their own faith, and really think they will be able to play their get-out-of-judgment-free hand from the grave. And God will just go right ahead and do what He tells us He will surely do: Jusge each and every man and woman on earth by our works, without any respect whatsoever for any faith or doctrine man has played for himself in life.

RBD

 

[RBDERRICK]

I choose to believe what Apostle Paul preached, that we can ONLY be saved by FAITH, and NOT by works... The matter is simple:

Exactly. You choose to believe the result of cutting Scripture short.

It's a very simple matter, that many do for their own justification.

 

[DavidT]

Then why didn't they follow Paul instead of maintaining a now dead Law ?

Well, I'm pretty sure I already showed you. Did you not read the Genesis 49:10 verse that the law would not depart from Judah until Shiloh (Jesus) comes? That means God has chosen Judah (Jews) to possess, administrate, and guard His law until Jesus returns.

The scrip' you used didn't mention "return".
Shiloh came, and the Law ended.

You are misunderstanding the following Gen.49:10 phrase in red:

Gen 49:10
10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
KJV

That "Shiloh" is being used as a symbolic title for Jesus Christ, and that "gathering of the people" is about Christ's future coming at the end of this world to gather His saints.

And by the way, those Genesis 49 prophecies is about Jacob telling his 12 sons what would befall them in the "last days."

Gen 49:1
49 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.
KJV

 

[DavidT]

Exactly. You choose to believe the result of cutting Scripture short.

It's a very simple matter, that many do for their own justification.

You are bearing false witness against the Word of God ...

Rev 1:7-8
7 Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen.
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, Which is, and Which was, and Which is to come, the Almighty.
KJV

Nah 1:3
3 The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the LORD hath His way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of His feet.
KJV

Matt 24:30
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
KJV

Matt 26:64
64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
KJV

Mark 13:26
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
KJV

Luke 21:27
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
KJV

Acts 1:9
9 And when He had spoken these things, while they beheld, He was taken up; and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
KJV

1 Thess 4:17
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV

 

[JLB]

Exactly. So simple just by grammar alone. Goid tells His own creatures, if we sin against Him, we will surely die. The devil tells us we surely won't.

Yes sir.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Well, I'm pretty sure I already showed you. Did you not read the Genesis 49:10 verse that the law would not depart from Judah until Shiloh (Jesus) comes? That means God has chosen Judah (Jews) to possess, administrate, and guard His law until Jesus returns.

You have added the word "returns", creating a false narrative.
"Shiloh" came, 2000 years ago.

You are misunderstanding the following Gen.49:10 phrase in red:
Gen 49:10
10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
KJV
That "Shiloh" is being used as a symbolic title for Jesus Christ, and that "gathering of the people" is about Christ's future coming at the end of this world to gather His saints.

"HIS" people have gathered together, in the church by Christ Jesus (Eph 3:21).
Only those that are not His are still apart from Him.

And by the way, those Genesis 49 prophecies is about Jacob telling his 12 sons what would befall them in the "last days."
Gen 49:1
49 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.
KJV

If, as you assume, the Jews are so intent on keeping the Law, why don't they keep the Law ?
You are crediting them with something they have never been able or willing to do.

 

[DavidT]

You have added the word "returns", creating a false narrative.
"Shiloh" came, 2000 years ago.

No, I didn't add anything. You simply choose to deny the context of that Gen.49:10 verse about the "last days"...

Gen 49:1
1 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.
KJV

So reading what Jacob said to Judah again...

Gen 49:10
10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
KJV

"Shiloh" there is put symbolically for Jesus. And that, "unto him shall the gathering of the people be" ONLY applies to His future return when He shall gather His saints. At Jesus' 1st coming, He did not come to 'gather', He came to die on the cross, and His Apostles were actually scattered at the crucifixion event!

Thus you... are the one ADDING men's leaven to that Scripture which is very plain it is about Judah maintaining God's law until Jesus' future return and gathering of His Church.

 

[Hopeful 2]

No, I didn't add anything. You simply choose to deny the context of that Gen.49:10 verse about the "last days"...

Gen 49:1
1 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.
KJV

So reading what Jacob said to Judah again...

Gen 49:10
10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
KJV

"Shiloh" there is put symbolically for Jesus. And that, "unto him shall the gathering of the people be" ONLY applies to His future return when He shall gather His saints. At Jesus' 1st coming, He did not come to 'gather', He came to die on the cross, and His Apostles were actually scattered at the crucifixion event!

Thus you... are the one ADDING men's leaven to that Scripture which is very plain it is about Judah maintaining God's law until Jesus' future return and gathering of His Church.

Though we don't agree on this topic, aren't you glad you are not a part of Judah ?
Aren't you glad you are now dead to the Law ?

 

[follower]

It's why Paul condemns playing word games with the gospel and doctrine of Christ, because it only produces endless useless arguments over words, rather than promoting godly living;

i.e. forums/ threads/ topics/ subjects/ censorship/ bias/ flesh/ carnality/ un-reality ?

1Ti 6:4
He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

 

[RBDERRICK]

We are justified by faith (Rom. 5:1). Where in the bible does it say we are justified by "works"?

But he said unto them, Have ye not read...

James
{2:20} But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? {2:21} Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? {2:24} Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. {2:25} Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?

Or do you just not believe all God's words as written.

That is a subjective statement. No one does the will of God 100% of the time.

And so we see the difference between Jesus' faith given by God to them that repent of their sinning, and man's own faith given of himself to continue sinning.

Psalms
{34:1} I will bless the LORD at all times: his praise [shall] continually [be] in my mouth.

{62:8} Trust in him at all times; [ye] people, pour out your heart before him: God [is] a refuge for us. Selah.

{106:3} Blessed [are] they that keep judgment, [and] he that doeth righteousness at all times.

The saving faith of Jesus does God's will at all times. The faith of unrepented sinful man, still does his own will at times.

John
{8:29} And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
Rev
{14:12} Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Some believers in their own saving faith, are content with God leaving them alone at times of diobedience with the world.

Not me.

Hmmmm .... the thief on the cross was justified ... I doubt he did the "will of God" other than to believe.

But he said unto them, Have ye not read...

{23:40} But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? {23:41} And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. {23:42} And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

Or do you just not read all the words of Scripture...

Our words are judged as works by God:

Matthew
{12:37} For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Romans
{10:9} That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. {10:10} For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

And being justified by faith of confession in Jesus, we can also conclude he did not go on to curse and revile them crucifying him, even as Jesus did not.

We see here how one's own faith is not the faith of Jesus, does not the will of Jesus, nor teaches all the words of Jesus Christ:

2 John
{1:9} Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. {1:10} If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into [your] house, neither bid him God speed: {1:11} For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

 

[Fastfredy0]

But he said unto them, Have ye not read...

James
{2:20} But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? {2:21} Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? {2:24} Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. {2:25} Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?

Or do you just not believe all God's words as written.

We probably both believe God's words as written...we just don't agree with on another's interpretation.

Unlike you who did not address my verse, I will address yours.
James {2:20} But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? {2:21)
The verse does not say that we are saved by works as I point out in Romans 5:1. It says one's faith is dead (he does have saving faith) if there are no works. You see works are the effect of faith. Works do not save per (Rom. 5:1; Eph 2:8-9; Titus 3:4–5).
I grant that James 2:14-16 can be seen your way but it contradicts the verses I mentioned. James 2:14-16 is explained by Gotquestions.org: Another reason that salvation by works can creep into denominations that claim to be Christian or say they believe in the Bible is that they misunderstand passages like James 2:24: “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.” Taken in the context of the entire passage (James 2:14–26), it becomes evident that James is not saying our works make us righteous before God; instead, he is making it clear that real saving faith is demonstrated by good works. The person who claims to be a Christian but lives in willful disobedience to Christ has a false or “dead” faith and is not saved. James is making a contrast between two different types of faith—truth faith that saves and false faith that is dead.

There's a warning for those who think they are saved by their works. Galatians 5:2-6 mentions a person who thinks he is saved by the work of circumcision is "separated from God" and I think this would apply to any work. v.4 You have been severed from Christ, if you seek to be [a]justified [that is, declared free of the guilt of sin and its penalty, and placed in right standing with God] through the Law; you have fallen from grace [for you have lost your grasp on God’s unmerited favor and blessing]. Salvation is a GIFT of God so that no one can boast. If you think you saved yourself by yours works then salvation is not a GIFT but something you earn and you can brag about when you meet God.

 

[Hopeful 2]

There's a warning for those who think they are saved by their works. Galatians 5:2-6 mentions a person who thinks he is saved by the work of circumcision is "separated from God" and I think this would apply to any work. v.4 You have been severed from Christ, if you seek to be [a]justified [that is, declared free of the guilt of sin and its penalty, and placed in right standing with God] through the Law; you have fallen from grace [for you have lost your grasp on God’s unmerited favor and blessing]. Salvation is a GIFT of God so that no one can boast. If you think you saved yourself by yours works then salvation is not a GIFT but something you earn and you can brag about when you meet God.

You really seem to be unaware that the only "works" Paul wrote against were the works of the Law.
Even though you cite circumcision above, you extend the "ban" to other unconnected doings.
James' works, however, are the results of being in Christ and loving our neighbors as we love ourselves.

Do you believe liars will go to heaven ?
Would telling the truth be outlawed by your POV ?
Some militant anti-works folks would say that telling the truth can't save you, but won't lying damn you ?
Telling the truth, then, can save you.
So can monogamy instead of adultery, and working instead of stealing. etc...

 

[Fastfredy0]

You really seem to be unaware that the only "works" Paul wrote against were the works of the Law.

Well, either of us can define the "law" as we please and manipulate the ambiguity of the term "law" to make discussion of not avail. The "law" has various meanings depending on context. I could go into detail but I won't bother.

Even though you cite circumcision above, you extend the "ban" to other unconnected doings.

Gal. 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, if you seek to be justified [that is, declared free of the guilt of sin and its penalty, and placed in right standing with God] through the Law; you have fallen from grace [for you have lost your grasp on God’s unmerited favor and blessing].
Well, the verse itself extends the "ban" to "the law" which brings us back to what is the definition of the law which is to complex/controversial to bother to get into.

James' works, however, are the results of being in Christ and loving our neighbors as we love ourselves.

Total agreement on this point. Works are an effect; the cause of which is faith. (The cause of faith being a discussion for another day).

Do you believe liars will go to heaven ?

Being a liars is not a perquisite for heaven. Peter lied when he said he would not deny Christ and Peter is in heaven. Therefore, liars are in heaven. That being said, there are liars that are not in heaven.

Would telling the truth be outlawed by your POV ?

???? You lost me.

Some militant anti-works folks would say that telling the truth can't save you, but won't lying damn you ?
Telling the truth, then, can save you.

??? one is saved by faith and faith alone .... I don't know what point you are trying to make. You are not saved by works and sinners can be saved. I don't know what the point is you are trying to make.

 

[Tenchi]

The gospel of being saved by faith, not by works, contradicts the supplemental teaching of being saved with works following.

Ephesians 2:7-10
7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

2 Timothy 1:9
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

Titus 3:5-7
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Romans 7:5-6
5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.
6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Galatians 3:1-3
1 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?
2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

If works have nothing to do with our being saved, they have nothing to do with our remaining saved. The basis upon which God accepted us into His family - Christ - is the same basis upon which He continues to accept us (Ephesians 1:6). To suggest something can be added to Christ's atoning work to improve or maintain it is to indicate Christ's atoning work was not sufficient to fully satisfy God, that his sacrifice was not perfect and truly "once for all," as the Bible explicitly and repeatedly declares. This denial of the sufficiency and completeness of Christ's atoning work on the cross is entirely blasphemous, diminishing Christ and his sacrifice and elevating the sinner to co-Savior with Jesus.

Romans 6:10
10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all...

Hebrews 7:26-27
26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;
27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.

Hebrews 9:12-14
12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh,
14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Hebrews 10:10
10 ...we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

1 Peter 3:18
18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God...

Isaiah 53:11
11 As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities.

Acts 4:12
12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Colossians 2:9-10
9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,
10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;

 

[Josef]

Hey All,
Here we go with the faith vs. works argument yet again.
Are we saved by faith?
Are we saved by faith and works?
Without works are we saved at all?
Let's explore what the Bible says.
We will look at the requirements for salvation.
Then we will look at Paul's and James' teachings, and see if we can reconcile what looks like a huge contradiction.

First, let's go to the most well-known verse in the Bible, John 3:16.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Belief in Jesus is the only requirement Jesus said was necessary for salvation. There is no argument that will win against this verse. The fact that Jesus said it should end this discussion. Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith.

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

That said, and pay attention here, this is the critically important caveat to the discussion: All, all other Scripture must agree with John 3:16. You have to have that mindset, or either Jesus, James, or Paul is lying. Yeah, that's how important this is.

Now let's look specifically at faith. The obvious place to look is Ephesians 2:8-10.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Grace is bestowed by God (we are made just), through faith (belief) that God provides (God's gift), in Jesus. This is not of works by man. We cannot brag that we did anything that warrants salvation. So the faith we need to believe comes from God. Believers are the product of God's work (not ours, God's work) We were Created in Christ unto (there's that future tense word again) good works. Works which God has previously (already) ordained (conferred by holy order) in which we are to walk (live our daily lives i.e. Keep walking everybody.).
Creation, in Christ, comes first. Then the work of salvation makes it possible to do good works. Nothing in this passage disagrees with John 3:16.

Now let's look at James.

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Justified - to be declared or made righteous in the sight of God.

This verse makes it look like James is in direct conflict with what Jesus and Paul taught. But James is actually in agreement with Jesus and Paul.
How can this be so?

Good works that will result in salvation was being taught by the Pharisees in Ephesus. Paul was responding to this teaching saying this is not so; that salvation is the work of God. James, however, is writing to converted Jews. He is telling them genuine faith always produces good works. Salvation justifies us before God. Good works justify us before man. James has already shown in 1:18, no one can be saved by good works.

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
BEGET', pret. begot, begat pp. begot, begotten - To procreate, as a father or sire to generate as, to beget a son

James says we are saved (born again ) by the will of God through the word of truth (Jesus). We are God's work; not our work, God's work. So James is not contradicting himself in 2:24. Because we are God's work. Our works are not necessary for salvation. But they are the sign of a living faith working within us. v17
In verse 22, he used the Greek word "eteleiōthē" (try saying that fast) to explain good works as the "completion," or the end result, of a living faith.

James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
wrought - verb; archaic past and past participle of work.
adjective: wrought - (of metals) beaten out or shaped by hammering.

James is still writing about God's works here, "his work." "And by works" (The pronoun "his" has not changed. So James is still writing about God's works.) was faith made perfect. This has to be God's works. Because our works, without God's works, are as filthy rags (unworthy). Isa. 64:6 James has been consistent in upholding faith as necessary for salvation.

Further, we are given the example of Abraham in verse 23.

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
impute - past tense: imputed
represent (something, especially something undesirable) as being done, caused, or possessed by someone

Abraham was considered righteous for believing God. James gives no other reason. Abraham exhibited his belief by being obedient to God. If you remember, as Abraham is taking Isaac to the place of sacrifice, Isaac asks Abraham where the sacrificial lamb was. Abraham responded:

Genesis 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

Obedience and trust are two of the works of salvation (faith) Abraham was exhibiting. He was living his faith. God had promised him earlier that He would make Abraham the father of many nations. Now God tells Abraham to sacrifice his only son. (Kinda hard to be the father of many nations without any offspring.) Only faith in God can produce this kind of trust and obedience. Abraham's faith was exhibited by his actions (works).

So in James 2:24, after using Abraham as the example, he tells us man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

If you are a believer, you should not have to tell me that you are. I should be able to see God's works in you through how you live your life. There is no such thing as a genuine faith that is "works-less." James is not claiming works are required for salvation.

Think about the parable of the talents. Matt 25:14-30 The last servant buried his talent instead of using it to earn more for his master. If the talent represents faith, then the burying of it is the equivalent of faith not being used. The other two servants used their master's talents and produced increased value. To the servant who did not use (do the works of faith) his talent; he was thrown into outer darkness.
Why?
He was not acting as a servant. The talent given (faith) was buried (hidden), and not being used (good works) to benefit the master. Therefore he was not a servant.

James did not proclaim that works are required for salvation. James is writing that a "faith" that has no works associated with it is not a real faith. If there is no trust, no obedience, no repentance, no evidence of a changed life, there is also no faith. Because true faith is life-changing.

So James is not in disagreement with Jesus or Paul. Neither Jesus, nor Paul, nor James lied.
John 3:16 - belief in Jesus is all that is necessary for salvation.
Ephesians 2:8-10 - we are saved by grace through faith from God unto good works.
James 2:24 - works justify our faith before man as being genuine.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[RBDERRICK]

You are bearing false witness against the Word of God ...

Rev 1:7-8
7 Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen.
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, Which is, and Which was, and Which is to come, the Almighty.
KJV

Nah 1:3
3 The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the LORD hath His way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of His feet.
KJV

Matt 24:30
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
KJV

Matt 26:64
64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
KJV

Mark 13:26
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
KJV

Luke 21:27
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
KJV

Acts 1:9
9 And when He had spoken these things, while they beheld, He was taken up; and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
KJV

1 Thess 4:17
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV

Good Scripture.

Job
{6:24} Teach me, and I will hold my tongue: and cause me to understand wherein I have erred.

1 John
{3:18} My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
Lousy accusation.