Say What ?

[Lewis]

How passing the plate becomes the 'Sunday morning stickup'
http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/14/us/sunday-stickup/index.html

 

[Brother Mike]

I read through it. It's pretty clear a very unfaith like point of view here. Some of it is right though. This comment bothered me though.

"It's a misapplication of scripture," Lee says. "They encourage individuals that before they pay their bills, before they buy their groceries or do anything with their finances, many of them say 'You have to take care of God first.' '

You can't have two first place things in your life. God is first, or your bills are first. If God is supplying your needs, then God should be first if God is your source.

 

[Lewis]

"It's a misapplication of scripture," Lee says. "They encourage individuals that before they pay their bills, before they buy their groceries or do anything with their finances, many of them say 'You have to take care of God first.' '

Mike I have seen that pushed with my own eyes and ears.

 

[jasonc]

Mike I have seen that pushed with my own eyes and ears.

I have too. my pastor has said that but he isn't interested in money. I know him well enough to say that. he took a pay cut so that the church could stay open.

 

[Brother Mike]

Mike I have seen that pushed with my own eyes and ears.

Since I tithe, and God is first, I have my money already set aside and ready to give before church. We are taught that if God is important, then God is not some after thought after the plates get passed around. Be ready to give the amount your going to give.

The Lord at times has asked me to give 20 to that person, or give to that person I see walking around the church, but a person should care enough to give what is on their heart to give, have it ready, and not be pulled to give more.

If God did not say give all your bill money, and rings, then giving them is not going to be a blessing, and means you will do without.

Even if someone has a need, I don't give, unless I get instruction from the Lord first. I would much rather the Lord tell me they have this need, and not them come to me. People should not be our source.

As for these people just throwing all their money in, that's on them. Paul called that giving out of necessity, or pressured to give. These folks have access to bibles, just like the rest of us, and what we hear, needs compared to what scripture actually does say.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I read through it. It's pretty clear a very unfaith like point of view here. Some of it is right though. This comment bothered me though.

"It's a misapplication of scripture," Lee says. "They encourage individuals that before they pay their bills, before they buy their groceries or do anything with their finances, many of them say 'You have to take care of God first.' '

You can't have two first place things in your life. God is first, or your bills are first. If God is supplying your needs, then God should be first if God is your source.

The Apostle Paul says to take care of your family first or else you are worse than an unbeliever.
And Scripture please: where does it say giving 10% of your income to the local church is what God wants of us?

 

[jasonc]

oh boy an another thread on tithing.
one can be legalistic on tithing. did it myself. don't have enough for an offering. I tithed exactly one tenth and no more.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Since I tithe, and God is first, I have my money already set aside and ready to give before church. We are taught that if God is important, then God is not some after thought after the plates get passed around. Be ready to give the amount your going to give.

The Lord at times has asked me to give 20 to that person, or give to that person I see walking around the church, but a person should care enough to give what is on their heart to give, have it ready, and not be pulled to give more.

If God did not say give all your bill money, and rings, then giving them is not going to be a blessing, and means you will do without.

Even if someone has a need, I don't give, unless I get instruction from the Lord first. I would much rather the Lord tell me they have this need, and not them come to me. People should not be our source.

As for these people just throwing all their money in, that's on them. Paul called that giving out of necessity, or pressured to give. These folks have access to bibles, just like the rest of us, and what we hear, needs compared to what scripture actually does say.

You cannot tithe.
That is an unbiblical principle.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I also am one that has made a habit of giving when prompted by God and I am certain that it has never averaged 10%. No preacher has ever tried to get into my wallet other than the one whose license the association removed his License to Preach causing him to leave the state and his wife and children.

 

[Brother Mike]

You cannot tithe.
That is an unbiblical principle.

Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils. And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham: But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises. And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better. And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth. And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
(Heb 7:4-9)

I can tithe, Jesus still receives them, and Abraham and Jacob did tithe, and I am the seed of Abraham, and will be blessed as Abraham.

Your thinking of tithing as a commandment, I tithe by faith.

For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
(Mal 3:6)

Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. (not only the priest) Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
(Mal 3:9-10)
And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.
(Mal 3:11)

If the Lord never changes. Then He would have to change what He considered robbery.

We are told now that all foods are to be received with thanksgiving. Before, we had to abstain from certain meats.

Since the Lord never said a thing about holding back a tenth from him about it not being stealing, then I am not a thief.

Since there is still a devourer around, the tithe protects from that devourer.

Now if you have a scripture like I have about food we can eat where God no longer considers not tithing stealing, then post it.
Since God never changes, then God would have had told us that tithing is no longer important.

Mike.

 

[jasonc]

Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils. And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham: But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises. And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better. And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth. And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
(Heb 7:4-9)

I can tithe, Jesus still receives them, and Abraham and Jacob did tithe, and I am the seed of Abraham, and will be blessed as Abraham.

Your thinking of tithing as a commandment, I tithe by faith.

For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
(Mal 3:6)

Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. (not only the priest) Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
(Mal 3:9-10)
And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.
(Mal 3:11)

If the Lord never changes. Then He would have to change what He considered robbery.

We are told now that all foods are to be received with thanksgiving. Before, we had to abstain from certain meats.

Since the Lord never said a thing about holding back a tenth from him about it not being stealing, then I am not a thief.

Since there is still a devourer around, the tithe protects from that devourer.

Now if you have a scripture like I have about food we can eat where God no longer considers not tithing stealing, then post it.
Since God never changes, then God would have had told us that tithing is no longer important.

Mike.

so if a pastor is need of money and cant feed his spouse, or children and is GIVEN money from the members. should he tithe it and THEN take from the very church pantry he tithed to? if yes tell me how that is really giving when he took more then he gave? and yes I have heard of that and seen it in a church with a member.

what was ordained first? the marriage or the church?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

You are an Old Testament Christian reading Old Testament Laws written to Jews who were under the Law.
Do you have anything for New Testament Christians?
Certainly not your example of Abraham.
His example is giving voluntarily one time only at a time when God had already given him great abundance.
Explain that to the guy who can't put groceries on the table for his family every week.
You rich people with great abundance are real big on giving lots of money to the church.
Try walking around town and giving all your money to poor people.
See if God doesn't bless you for that.
And see if your church can get by for a week without your money.
Maybe not.
Maybe they'll have to start praying to God to meet their needs.
That might be a good idea.

 

[Deborah13]

so if a pastor is need of money and cant feed his spouse, or children and is GIVEN money from the members. should he tithe it and THEN take from the very church pantry he tithed to? if yes tell me how that is really giving when he took more then he gave? and yes I have heard of that and seen it in a church with a member.

what was ordained first? the marriage or the church?

I saw the same thing, the pastor's family taking a salary and tithes, and eating from the church pantry for the poor. That pastor was taken out of the way.

 

[jasonc]

yet despite my issues with the doctrine of tithing in my church. I prefer to tithe. I will not create a confusion over something that at my church isn't an issue.

 

[Kenny_ms]

You can't have two first place things in your life. God is first, or your bills are first. If God is supplying your needs, then God should be first if God is your source.

Who's to say God wouldn't think one foolish to give away what they need to live on. Especially to someone who owns everything already. Some of these people that pay their bills first, for all we know, would gladly give their life for God. And just because you pay your bills first, last or whatever, hardly means you put something other than God first.

Now, what you said, Mike and what I said is just some stuff that we made up here on the spot, yours sounds that way anyway and I know mine is.

But this is not:

2 Corinthians 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

What "HE" purposeth, not what you or I choose for him to give. And I assume, "or of necessity" means he doesn't have to give any.

On the 10%, the one thing I can say for that is it's an amount that was used often in the bible and used for a reason, and it just seems a good logical amount to give, to me anyway. So if one wants to do that, great. But if a person barely has enough to make their bills and doesn't give a thing this month/week or whatever, that may just be smart.

One might argue, God will take care of us if we give more than we can afford to give, but you all have to admit, he may do nothing too. God wants us to take care of ourselves to a point anyway.

 

[Kenny_ms]

Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils. And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham: But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises. And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better. And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth. And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
(Heb 7:4-9)

I can tithe, Jesus still receives them, and Abraham and Jacob did tithe, and I am the seed of Abraham, and will be blessed as Abraham.

Your thinking of tithing as a commandment, I tithe by faith.

For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
(Mal 3:6)

Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. (not only the priest) Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
(Mal 3:9-10)
And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.
(Mal 3:11)

If the Lord never changes. Then He would have to change what He considered robbery.

We are told now that all foods are to be received with thanksgiving. Before, we had to abstain from certain meats.

Since the Lord never said a thing about holding back a tenth from him about it not being stealing, then I am not a thief.

Since there is still a devourer around, the tithe protects from that devourer.

Now if you have a scripture like I have about food we can eat where God no longer considers not tithing stealing, then post it.
Since God never changes, then God would have had told us that tithing is no longer important.

Mike.

Mike, do you have an actual Church of your own, where you preach?

And if so, do you preach to your congregation they are cursed if they don't give 10%?

 

[jasonc]

if tithing was the way then and there is a clear command to do so. the function of it was not for the poor but for the priests so that they had meat for offerings, food for themselves though they could own land but it was given of each tribe and from each tribes hear to give them land. however, its clear in the torah that those that had fields were to allow the fatherless, the poor and the widows to glean the corners for food and not go to the tabernacle nor temple.

 

[jasonc]

if tithing was the way then and there is a clear command to do so. the function of it was not for the poor but for the priests so that they had meat for offerings, food for themselves though they could own land but it was given of each tribe and from each tribes hear to give them land. however, its clear in the torah that those that had fields were to allow the fatherless, the poor and the widows to glean the corners for food and not go to the tabernacle nor temple.

however with malachi as the new temple and the people living near the temple it was needed for that type of tithing and what is for. meat for mine house. malachi 3

after rereading that. the tithe mentioned is all of the tithes. it says nothing about the priests there to take that tithe for the poor. its talking about how the people didn't care for the proper tithe to be given for the use of the feasts and commandments of how each lamb or offering was to be the best. nothing in there for the poor. notice it says oppressing the poor. that usually means not pleading his cause. not gleaning the fields.not caring that or giving. that tithe concept isn't a bad idea but we cant take that as a curse if its just about giving to the levites for the work of god. there can be a president made but since its not clearly spelled out as how to give a case can also be made against it. I know of many churches that don't teach tithing and they don't beg for money or pass offering plates.
I believe the vineyard movement is one. and calvary chapel I know works like that

 

[Brother Mike]

so if a pastor is need of money and cant feed his spouse, or children and is GIVEN money from the members. should he tithe it and THEN take from the very church pantry he tithed to? if yes tell me how that is really giving when he took more then he gave? and yes I have heard of that and seen it in a church with a member.

what was ordained first? the marriage or the church?

I don't give to "A" Church Jason. I give to the Lord, and He comes first. A Pastor ought to tithe, whatever portion is considered his. Not only that, but His church should tithe back the tenth of what comes in before the Pastor gets a dime. It's not about amounts.

Right now we support a food pantry, shop with a cop, Salvation Army. We also send lots of money to other churches. That is how it should be. God can help people through the church.

Looking at some names that are well known, and claim God does not want you broke, are struggling right now. They keep what comes in, nothing if little is going back out.

You are an Old Testament Christian reading Old Testament Laws written to Jews who were under the Law.
Do you have anything for New Testament Christians?
Certainly not your example of Abraham.
His example is giving voluntarily one time only at a time when God had already given him great abundance.
Explain that to the guy who can't put groceries on the table for his family every week.
You rich people with great abundance are real big on giving lots of money to the church.
.

I wish I was one of those "YOU" rich people. My example of Abraham is Valid, and God never changes, God never said don't tithe.

And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on, So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God: And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.
(Gen 28:20-22)

This is before the law. You think God changed any here? Jacob had no command to tithe, but He had spiritual sense that all the God gave him, God would get the tenth of it back.

God has not changed one bit.

Jacob came out pretty well, if you keep reading.

I lost my Job last year. Felony conviction, Work History, age, whatever you want to call it, it's been hard finding a Job. I did tithe though.

Now my car payment was due, rent due, power due.

I have not asked one person for money, I went to God and reminded Him I tithed, and YOU promised to open the window of heaven, and as Jacob said to you, take care of me.

Someone went in our bank and paid off our car. Never mentioned it to anyone.
Money has come in for a full year to pay the rent every single month.
Someone paid off our power bill, we don't know who. It's up to date right now.
My wife's parents called us to let us know they paid rent for July.

My son, said he felt led to pay our internet bill.

Supernatural provision.

You know what though, when I had the money, more than once if God asked for it, I would empty my account, give all my bill money to the person He said give it. I have never kept a thing from the Lord.

When I built my super 6x core computer, awesome computer, the Lord asked me to sow it. Hard as it was, I sowed it.

My wife's 1,200 dollar dining table, some other girl, a believer just loved that Table. She did not have much, and the Lord spoke to us. give her the Table, all the chairs. We obeyed, though we saved for a long time to get our dream dining table.

Now go do the things I have done, then come back and post that we should not tithe.

 

[jasonc]

I don't give to "A" Church Jason. I give to the Lord, and He comes first. A Pastor ought to tithe, whatever portion is considered his. Not only that, but His church should tithe back the tenth of what comes in before the Pastor gets a dime. It's not about amounts.

Right now we support a food pantry, shop with a cop, Salvation Army. We also send lots of money to other churches. That is how it should be. God can help people through the church.

Looking at some names that are well known, and claim God does not want you broke, are struggling right now. They keep what comes in, nothing if little is going back out.



I wish I was one of those "YOU" rich people. My example of Abraham is Valid, and God never changes, God never said don't tithe.

And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on, So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God: And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.
(Gen 28:20-22)

This is before the law. You think God changed any here? Jacob had no command to tithe, but He had spiritual sense that all the God gave him, God would get the tenth of it back.

God has not changed one bit.

Jacob came out pretty well, if you keep reading.

I lost my Job last year. Felony conviction, Work History, age, whatever you want to call it, it's been hard finding a Job. I did tithe though.

Now my car payment was due, rent due, power due.

I have not asked one person for money, I went to God and reminded Him I tithed, and YOU promised to open the window of heaven, and as Jacob said to you, take care of me.

Someone went in our bank and paid off our car. Never mentioned it to anyone.
Money has come in for a full year to pay the rent every single month.
Someone paid off our power bill, we don't know who. It's up to date right now.
My wife's parents called us to let us know they paid rent for July.

My son, said he felt led to pay our internet bill.

Supernatural provision.

You know what though, when I had the money, more than once if God asked for it, I would empty my account, give all my bill money to the person He said give it. I have never kept a thing from the Lord.

When I built my super 6x core computer, awesome computer, the Lord asked me to sow it. Hard as it was, I sowed it.

My wife's 1,200 dollar dining table, some other girl, a believer just loved that Table. She did not have much, and the Lord spoke to us. give her the Table, all the chairs. We obeyed, though we saved for a long time to get our dream dining table.

Now go do the things I have done, then come back and post that we should not tithe.

so why did god change from having field gleaned for the poor to having the Pharisees tithe and give to the poor? show me where the levites were to give to the poor daily? where is the command? it says under moses that the rich with fields were to leave the corners of the field for the poor.

jesus address giving to the temple as that was custom of the Pharisees under oral law. nothing bad. just done. that was to upkeep the temple and to do what they see fit. that isn't called tithing but really tzaddik. which means in the Hebrew righteousness funny aint it. to do that is do what? demonstrate the heart of god.

yet in the book of malachi there is no change of the LAW. don't read into the bible anything that it doesn't say and it doesn't say what the tithes were to be used for to my knowledge save for offerings were commanded and to be given to the temple/tabernacle. nothing that I recall that the priest were to care for the poor the people were!